Open Philosophy Challenge

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Pro Instigator Opens first Winner
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3
Rating
1782
Debates
34
Win rate
95.59%
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0
Rating
1491
Debates
21
Win rate
50.00%
Verdict Bones wins · 3 points
Bones Pro
3
GreatfulGoy Con
0

After 3 votes (0 ties) — 3 points ahead

This debate should be quite unprecedented! In this challenge, my opponent can select any topic in philosophy, as well as their own position, as well as my position! To sustain some level of fairness, my opponent must pick a topic from the list of surveyed responses from the 2020 Philpaper survey (so that it is a "real" debatable topic). In choosing my position, my opponent must assign me a view which is endorsed by at least 10% of the surveyed participants (so that I am not defending something that is completely ridiculous). BoP will be shared.


If there is a topic that does not appear on the linked survey, feel free to let me know what you are interested in the comment section. You can find the survey here https://survey2020.philpeople.org/survey/results/all

Round 1

1 of 3
avatar Pro #1

Debate Proposition: That Gender is a Social Construct

I. Framework

My opponent has chosen the topic of gender. Pro will endorse the social view of gender. Con will endorse the biological view of gender. The burden of proof is shared. My approach in this debate is to first introduce some serious problems for the Biological View of Gender (BVG). I will then argue that these implausibilities can be overcome by a Social View of Gender (SVG).


II. Implausibilities of the Biological View

Con's view is that gender is a biological phenomenon. This means that ones gender will be identical to whatever biological function they attribute (chromosomes, gametes ect).


II.i Two Thought Experiments

I will present two arguments from thought experiments against the BVG.


II.ii. Argument from Deception

Suppose that gender is reducible to some biological feature. Imagine that you are a man - you have lived your whole life as a man, you look like a man, your genitalia are that of a man, everyone refers to you with he/him pronouns and your hobbies are very man-typical. Now suppose that all this is true, and you discover one day that you actually had XX chromosomes, or that you have large gametes (just imagine that aliens or God created you in this way). In effect, you look like a man, present like a man and live like a man, but have this one biological feature which is typical of females. How should such a person react? It would be highly absurd if they dropped their life and suddenly began living like a women - accepting she/her pronouns, presenting oneself like a women and using women facilities. Yet, this is what would be expected of the BVG. If gender is determined by some underlying biological fact, then learning that fact alone should determine your gender. If BVG were true, then it must follow that we as a society should treat this person like a woman.

P1 If gender is identical with biological sex, then if I were to discover that I had XX chromosomes, then I would be a woman

P2 I would not be a woman even if I were to discover that I had XX chromosomes

C1 So, gender is not identical with biological sex


II.iii. Argument from Attraction and Pronoun Usage

The second thought experiment is very similar to the Argument from Deception. Take the most conventionally attractive woman you believe exists (someone famous like a model or an actress). Keeping all of their physical features constant, suppose that their chromosomes or gametes were swapped with male counterparts. Under the BVG, this individual is a male. This implies that almost all heterosexual men will not be attracted to this individual. But this seems to be quite absurd. Just think about your own attraction to men/women, and think about what it is you are attracted to - surely, it's not the fact that they have certain chromosomes. In fact, this argument can be made without any reference to attraction. In this scenario, merely referring to this individual with male pronouns would seem highly absurd. Hence, BVG fails to account for why people who are attracted to females continue to remain attracted to them, even when their underlying biological constitution is changed.

The guiding motivation behind these two thought experiments is that BVG fails to account for our common usage of gendered terms. In the argument from deception, we saw that upon reflection, there are a lot of other social and aesthetic features which guide our own sense of gender. In the argument from attraction, we saw that BVG fails to predict that heterosexual men (who by definition are attracted to women) don't stop being physically attracted to an individual when some underlying biological fact about them is changed, suggesting that the definition of "women" goes beyond mere chromosomes or gametes.


III. Defending the Social View

III.i Definitions

According to the social view, a woman is an adult human person who has the legitimate desire to be in accord with the set of social and cultural norms typically associated with the female sex. Notice that this view bypasses several shortcomings by combining an element of self identification with an element of social factors. First, the "transitioning on a whim" reductio, where someone asks "can I just say I am a woman if become a woman" is blocked, because my definition requires that the desire be legitimate and that one has to actually be in accord with some set of standards. Second, this definition blocks the critique that "some butch lesbians will be inadvertently labelled as men" because it still requires that one have a desire to be their chosen gender.

III.ii Accounting for Deception

This account trivially accounts for the Argument from Deception. Just because you discover some biological fact about yourself, does not negate the fact that you have a legitimate desire to continue being a man, and that you are well in line with the social typical male. Hence, SVG can account for deception.

III.iii Accounting for Attraction

This account also explains attraction. When the typical heterosexual man sees an attractive individual who looks like a woman, dresses like a woman and presents like a woman, they will naturally be attracted to them. Even if there is some deviant factor about their biology (that they actually have male chromosomes), the fact that this individual both has a desire to and acts in accord with female social expectations is enough for them to be considered a woman. Hence, SVG can account for attraction and pronoun usage.


IV. Conclusion

SVG provides a more natural interpretation of how we consider gender. BVG has several absurd implications about identity and attraction which SVG easily overcome. All in all, our view on what a man or woman is more closely resembles SVG than it does BVG.

avatar Con #2

Disagreement on Debate Title


The question relevant to the debate asked:

Social constructs can be biologically driven, an example directly related to gender is as follows:


Penn professor Michael Platt was surprised to learn that, instead of focusing on the competition’s brightly colored tail feathers, the birds watched their lower feathers and legs.
“The evolution of the peacock’s tail has been a riddle since the time of Darwin. How do you explain such an elaborate design?” he said.
Researchers do have ideas why evolution would invest so much energy into such a vibrant feather display.

“We think it’s probably some kind of a signaling mechanism that says, ‘This guy is pretty good quality, he has good genes, he’s strong enough to carry around this tail and not get eaten by predators,'” Platt said.
The findings could explain more than peacock behavior, he said.
“It helps bring us closer to understanding how we — and how other animals — use info information from our environments to make decisions,” Platt said. “In this case, how does a peacock or a peahen use information about another individual to decide whether to fight or decide whether to mate or decide whether to run away?”
Platt pointed out that humans also spend a lot of time sizing one another up to determine emotions and status — and to try to predict behavior. The peacock study, published in the Journal of Experimental Biology, could help better in understanding how humans make decisions.

It might offer insight into how to better diagnose and help people with autism, schizophrenia and other neurodevelopmental disorders, Platt said.

whyy.org


I therefore strongly affirm that the debate Title for Pro is: Gender is more rooted in and related to biological than social factors.


This title is clearly the debate because it contrasts biological and social factors rather than merely mentioning the word 'social' leaving side Con able to contradict from multiple angles. In the comments I stated:


You must accept and lean towards social, I will accept and lean towards biological.

This is not viable to be my side/stance if the debate is binary about social construct vs non social construct. That wouldn't make me take the side of biological alone nor would there be that dichotomy.



I am now going to prove to you with more than peacocks that social constructs can in fact be rooted in and related to biological factors more so than social (which result from it).


The irony of woke ideology of the modern era is that you have the naturalist hippies and many of them are vegan as well pushing the idea that they're pro environment, pro nature and care more about trees and animals than about humans. Yet, what you find is they're so out of touch with nature on so many levels that what is concluded by them on a matter like gender is so alien to the animal world and shows complete ignorance of basically all non-human animals.


You can very much presume that Pro will say 'but we are not animals' to everything I bring up here. This is a lie. We are absolutely animals in a very real sense and are merely the most intelligent and sophisticated. The idea that other species of animals lack 'gender' and only have biological sex stems from the extremely out of touch woke ideology that many on the side of Pro in this debate push and adhere to.


If you would observe animals as a whole, you would realise they have gender. I will agree their 'gender' is less sophisticated and complex than ours but they have it. Their 'gender' covers many things from male vs female politics and hierarchy among a tribe of chimpanzees to ways they walk on their arms and legs differently to seem manlier vs more effeminate. These 'gender roles' exist even in many non mammals and are often fundamentally rooted in each species needing their males and females to act differently and present their quality to mate with differently.


The problem my side faces in this debate is that humans of all sides of politics (even the vegan woke side) are often so human supremacist that they presume there's something non biological in root to how our gender roles and traits evolved. The very first thing they will point out is how in some cultures men wear clothing that looks more like a dress or skirt in the modern western cultures which would be considered effeminate. They will point out maybe that in some cultures especially black african ones, women having longer hair is in no shape or form necessary to seem effeminate. The problem with those observations, regarding this debate is that for example the fact women of african cultures often didn't develop as big a tendency to grow long hair is literally due to the biological mechanics of afro hair versus softer hair of other females in other continents and races. Equally, the tendency to wear skirt-like clothing with the exclusion of kilts among the Scottish, is largely linked to whether the weather is so cold that men and boys would be driven to want to cover up their genitals as opposed to let them be looser with more airflow. Environment and adaptation to it are themselves biological after all.


Sure, I will concede some aspects of gender are absolutely social such as styles of jewellery and the tendency for both genders to wear particular accessories including jewllery. These varied across tribes in ways that were not purely biological. However, what's very key to my debate is that our innate urge to have gender roles and tribally uniting tendencies in the sense of all men and all women of a tribe dressing and acting similarly to their gender role within that tribe, are in fact biological. We are primates and these urges to have 'gender' with specific tendencies is itself biological and down to our brain structure and DNA.


This gets more taboo the more you think about what I am saying. Let me make this clearer for you; culture and the tendencies of it are more rooted in biology than in anything particularly beyond it. The proof of that is extremely simple; which came first, a particular ethnicities' genetical similarity or its cultural tendencies? The counterargument to this is often that we share so much DNA well over 99% with each other.


Let me clarify to you how much 1% of DNA can be. DNA is not something where each gene variation is equally impactful. Some gene variations matter over 30x as much as others in terms of behaviour and mental tendencies, after all very few genes actually link to the brain and hormonal tendencies relating to brains.


The domestic dog is an extremely close relative of the gray wolf, differing from it by at most 0.2% of mtDNA sequence15,22,23.
In comparrison, the gray wolf differs from its closest wild relative, the coyote, by about 4% of mitochondrial DNA sequence14. Therefore, the molecular genetic evidence does not support theories that domestic dogs arose from jackal ancestors24. Dogs are gray wolves, despite their diversity in size and proportion; the wide variation in their adult morphology probably results from simple changes in developmental rate and timing 25.

cfba.uk


DNA similarlity can be deceptive because as I said some genes matter far more than others. Gray wolves are 99.8% similar to domestic dogs (at most) and 4% different to wild coyotes.


Gender roles exist from tendencies among our species (actually all species with biological sexes) that are rooted in biology. The biology resulted partly from the environment.


In most societies known to anthropology, there is a division of labor by gender. Given all the different societies in the world, we might imagine that there would be an enormous number of different ways of dividing labor by gender. But to the contrary, there are some near-universal cross-cultural patterns regarding subsistence, food processing, other economic activities, and household chores for adults (Murdock and Provost 1973).
Men almost always hunt and trap animals, do work that involves hard materials such as lumbering, mining, quarrying, and making objects from bone, horn, and shell. They also almost always make musical instruments.
Women almost always care for infants.
Men usually fish, herd large animals, clear land and do soil preparation for planting, butcher animals, make nets and rope, and collect honey.
Women usually gather wild plants, cook, prepare dairy products, fetch firewood or other fuel, launder clothes, spin yarn, and care for children.
Activities done by either women or men include collecting shellfish, caring for small animals, milking, planting and weeding crops, preserving fish and meat, preparing leather products, baskets, clothing, and pottery.
Although many agricultural tasks are performed by men or women, men will tend to increase their participation in agriculture with the introduction of the plow (Murdock and Provost 1973Alesina, Giuliano, and Nunn 2013).
However, women do not appear to decrease their absolute contribution to agriculture with intensification; rather, men increase their contribution relative to women (Ember 1983).
Why? With the intensification of agriculture, which is usually related to growing cereal crops, total work time (in both subsistence and domestic work) increases. Increased domestic work results from: more time needed to process cereal crops to make them edible (such as grinding flour or boiling dried grains for hours); more water and firewood are needed for cooking; and more infant and childcare (due to higher fertility). Domestic work is more compatible with childcare, so it appears that women are “pulled” into spending more time in tasks in and around the home. With increased domestic work, women probably have no more time to spend on agriculture, so men have to do more. It is important to note that women in intensive agricultural societies work on average over 11 hours a day, 7 days a week (Ember 1983).

hraf.yale.edu


Men being more war-ready is both because them dying drives a tribe less extinct and that they're biologically better for war.

Round 2

2 of 3
avatar Pro #3

I. Overview

I don't see Con's dispute about the topic to be too serious so I'm happy to just adopt their title. Recall that in I. Framework, I stated that

 Pro will endorse the social view of gender. Con will endorse the biological view of gender. The burden of proof is shared

clarifying that the topic is therefore not "the social view and it's negation".


II. Implausibilities of the Biological View

Extend all arguments. Note that many of Con's arguments are implicitly refuted in this section - even if we assume the biological position, it has many implausibilities which render it a poor thesis.


III. Defending the Social View

Extend all arguments.


IV. Rebuttals

I have to admit that I had difficulty parsing Con's argument into concise arguments. But here is what I came up with

IV.I "Animals have genders"

Con's primary argument is that animals have genders, and that this implies that gender is an evolutionarily biological trait, rather than social. However, this completely misunderstands the dispute at hand by equivocating between the origin of gender and the characteristics of gender. To draw this out, the debate at hand concerns whether SVG or BVG is more likely to be true, that is, when considering the statement

  1. An x is an x, in virtue of y

where x is a gender and y are the specific characteristics which defines that said gender, Pro is committed to saying that y mostly consists of a set of social facts (presentation, clothing, social norms), and Con is committed to saying that y mostly consists of a set of biological facts (chromosomes, gametes). In light of this, we can see why Con's criticism here is unfounded. What they are arguing is

  1. An x is an x, in virtue of y, where y had a origin z

where z is "a biological origin". But this is clearly orthogonal to the debate at hand. Whether or not the defining characteristics of gender are social or not is a completely different question to whether social norms originate in and reduce to biological facts. To give an analogy, suppose that a man is on trial for murder and the prosecutor asks "why did you do what you did?". The man answers, "well, I only did what I did because my mother gave birth to me, and she only did that because her mother gave birth to her, so really it should be my grandmother on this stand!". This answer clearly mistakes the prosecutors question, which was something like "what part of your mind thought that doing this was sensible", was wrongly mistaken for the question "from where did the parts of your mind which thought this was sensible originate from".

In the same way, Con is completely misunderstanding the prompt. Pro can agree that social phenomenons have biological origins (only in the most reductive sense that social phenomenons emerge from animals, and all animals are biological) without agreeing that the phenomenons themselves are not social.


IV.II Cross-Cultural Universality of the Division of Labor

Here, Con argues that gender is biological because anthropic data indicates that societies all across the world exhibit similar gender roles (men as hunters, women as gathers), that this implies that gender is actually biological. Again, the above arguments sufficiently address this argument. Con almost explicitly mistakes the phenomenon of gender with the origin of gender.

The rest of Con's arguments make the same mistake, so IV.I sufficiently addresses Con's case.


V. Conclusion

To reintroduce some resource, recall that this debate pivots around how best to interpret the following statement

  1. An x is an x, in virtue of y

Say we substitute x with "a woman" and ask "in virtue of what y is a woman a woman"? Con has not provided any reason to think that a woman is a woman in virtue of her genes, gametes, chromosomes, or genitals. What they have provided is the truism that all people have biological origins. But that is not the topic at hand.

Round 3

3 of 3
avatar Pro #5

Con has not posted a round 2. As they dedicated their first round purely to their opening statement (and hence did not issue any direct rebuttal to my argument), I am left with no opportunity to defend my arguments, even if they decide to introduce some new rebuttals in their closing statement. In any case, hopefully they do show up for the final round!


Thanks for the debate.

New comment

avatar
Savant Administrator
•••
#18
--> @SatanLucy

I mean the only similarity between the names is that they start with H, and they write pretty differently, so I would guess different people.

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•••
#17

they both had anime profile picture at some point. Its probably what led me to believe they are same user.

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•••
#16
--> @Savant

Oh yeah, similar name so I confused them cuz it was like a year ago. I am not sure if they are same user using similar name, or different people.

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Savant Administrator
•••
#15
--> @SatanLucy

Was it this one? I believe it was Hurried4675, not Hyper.

http://web.archive.org/web/20260413213646/https://www.debateart.com/debates/5770-traditional-knowledge-justifiable-obtainability

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#14
--> @Savant

Debate name was something like "justified knowledge doesnt exist", with Hyper (or something like that, my memory isnt best) as Pro.

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Savant Administrator
•••
#13
--> @SatanLucy

Hyper debated with Novice? Couldn't find it on Wayback machine, but it didn't have all Novice's debates. How much of it do you remember?

That said, Hyper may have just gotten better. Have you read any of their newer debates?

https://www.debatecraft.com/users/Hyper/debates

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#12
--> @Savant

If we are talking of Hyper from debate art who had debate with Novice, then I wouldn't be so sure. I am not sure if it's same user, but I know one thing. Once you go against top 3 debaters, things get infinitely more difficult.

It's sort of like boxing against average boxer and boxing with boxing champion. The latter is gonna be on a whole other level.

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Savant Administrator
•••
#11
--> @SatanLucy

Hyper and Alyssa are some promising newcomers whom I'd love to see go against Bones or whiteflame. Granted, I've only seen a few debates from them, but if they've had pretty strong performances.

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#10

There are only 3 debaters on whole site who can go against Bones and maybe win: Whiteflame, Savant, and Novice.

Anyone else who accepts just accepts inevitable defeat.

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#9

I mean, a top debater on leaderboard, vs a guy who is just above average Gish galloper.

Did anyone really think Bones would lose this?

Get real. This debate was concluded before it started.

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fauxlaw Global Moderator
•••
#8

Con's forfeit of R2 is a critical, but not fatal issue of this debate. Critical because Pro's arguments are strong in both rounds; however, his R1 has an argument that potentially has an issue of its own. I'll not speak to it here, as I may vote on this debate, and it may now be too late to save the argument. I'll wait to see if Con discovers the potential, but should have used R2 to engage it and didn't. It may turn Con's argument on its ear to have not rebutted the point in R2.

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#7

Now I wonder how Bones will respond. tho this topic is truism on Pro's side anyway.

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#6
--> @Bones

"Gender is more rooted in and related to biological than social factors."

I miswrote this, I obviously meant for your side it's the opposite way around.

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#5

Fun debate, will be reading this one, tho I cant promise to be voting.

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Kohai Administrator
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#4
--> @Bones

Sounds good. This looks like an interesting debate

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#3
--> @Kohai

I'm happy to open this challenge again in the near future so that is definitely a topic we can do.

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Kohai Administrator
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#2
--> @Bones

I'm totally down. How about Knowledge: empiricism or rationalism? I'll take a rationalism approach and you'll take empiricism

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#1
--> @Bones

Gender: biological, psychological, social, or unreal?

You must accept and lean towards social, I will accept and lean towards biological.

Savant
Savant Administrator
#3
Criterion Pro Tie Con
Winner
Con forfeited 2/3 of the debate and thus never addressed Pro's murder trial analogy (or Pro's other rebuttals), which argued that Con's framing of the case was faulty. Thus, I vote Pro.
Kohai
Kohai Administrator
#2
Criterion Pro Tie Con
Winner
2/3 of the debate were forfeited. Sad because this started out good
Criterion Pro Tie Con
Winner
Con ignored Pro's arguments, and made a bunch of arguments which I am not sure even how to judge. But good news is, I don't have to judge it because Con forfeited 2 rounds and that is win for Pro even if Con won round 1, which would be difficult to justify as Con didnt even make a framework, while Pro did.

So it's very difficult to even judge Con's case, because there are no connecting premises in it to topic.

As for argument on what topic is, I don't know what Con was even trying to do there.