Why you should argue for pacifism and cooperation (even if you're wrong)

Started by Savant

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#1 •••

It's the end of World War I, and you're a world famous philosopher. Several armchair commentators have theorized that another world war may break out in a few decades, but they're not sure over what. Meanwhile, there is vigorous debate going on about just war theory, whether nations are ever justified in killing civilians, the non-aggression principle, and so forth. Most philosophers argue that war is justified under certain conditions but not under others. You are inclined to agree with them, although you disagree slightly on what the conditions are. So, what should you do?


Now, suppose you argue that war is sometimes justified and give a list of criteria, such as responding to aggression. When the Nazis take power, they will inevitably argue, as best they can, that they meet the criteria, and hence that World War II is justified. Now, world famous as you are, it will probably be difficult beforehand to anticipate exactly what the new world war will be fought over, and your criteria may be vague enough that either side can appropriate your argument. Even if you do exclude the Nazis when arguing what makes war justified, they can easily appropriate the rest of your argument and replace the things you said justify war with their own grievances. It's not difficult to take an argument saying that self-defense justifies violence and stretch it to argue that harms against the German people justify warfare. Add to this that the Nazis will inevitably lie about what's happening and invent a list of harms to justify war.


But suppose you instead argue that war is always wrong, that people should refuse to fight no matter what. If this logic becomes somewhat popular everywhere, even a little, it will make it more difficult for any aggressor to justify war. They can say that other nations are plotting against them, but if their population has a lot of die-hard pacifists, then those arguments won't do much to convince them.


Since you don't know who will listen to your arguments for or against pacifism, you should therefore advocate for violence not to be used ever, because if everyone uses violence less it will be a net gain for everyone. If the Axis powers use fewer soldiers and attack fewer civilians, and the Allies use fewer soldiers and attack fewer civilians, then the win probabilities remain roughly equal, but fewer people die.


Disclaimer: I'm actually not 100% sure if this logic holds up or not, but I thought it was worth sharing. A downside of this approach may be that lying about your conclusions leads to people accepting bad logical premises.

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#2 •••
@Savant

I think all war is bad.


However, when you are attacked by an enemy who seeks to destroy you, your only choices are to run, fight or die, and running is generally easier than fighting.

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#3 •••

Well, there is actually a 4th way, to convince enemy to become your friend, so he doesnt destroy you.

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#4 •••
@SatanLucy

Putin sees all 4 approaches as signs of weakness. Trump has run out of heroics.

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#5 •••

The flaw in your points is assuming war is justified with subjective reasoning. Of course your point might be that peoples subjective reasoning appears objective to them but that ignores the fact that perhaps objective reasoning in fact exists and its meant for humans to pursue that even if they often duck it up. Obviously the other flaw in your reasoning is allowing aggressors to take over the world which is self evidently absurd

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#6 •••
@Savant

"Why you should argue for pacifism and cooperation"


. . . . . . Well, it would certainly be easier to kill one's enemies, if one convinced them to disarm and be pacifists first.

. . .


I 'do see the value in seeking peace, but I would 'still want to argue to the military that we need a strong military just in case.


The people can always be mobilized once/if the enemy hurts them enough.

. . . . . .


Hm, Peacekeeping though,

The idea of one country intervening in another is something I dislike a bit, but it seems wrong to simply stand aside.

. . . One has to deal with the murky gray,

When is physical contact a playful punch vs a harmful punch?

(Shrug)


But. . Rwandan Genocide for example, Pacifism does not seem the answer.

Heh, though I suppose it is still in one's interest to 'argue we should not commit violence, war, and intervene.

It can be good for people to be reminded to 'try for restraint.


Still, in the backrooms, war should be declared, argued, and sought for in some situations, I think.

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#7 •••
@Savant

There's an argument to be made that WW2 was just a continuation of WW1, which was also a continuation of the Napoleonic wars, which was also a continuation of....


The Marshal Plan era was the first time Europe experienced real pacifism and not Pax Romana, however; it took Fat Man and Little Boy to get all of EU to agree to follow the plan. Peace through the atom got EU to agree on real pacifism. I suspect a worldwide existential event like Aliens would be necessary for pacifism to be global.

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#8 •••

It had to be a continuation because they both happened in Europe.

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#9 •••
@Shoresy
I suspect a worldwide existential event like Aliens would be necessary for pacifism to be global.


Blimey, your faith in human nature and species nature in general, knows no bounds.


As per Hollywood, the little green critters will be armed to the teeth and we will have to dispatch our top US military heroes to blow the fuck out of them.


Of course there will be significant love interest between the Alpha hero and the gorgeous nuclear physicist, and the critters will look remarkably Iranian, albeit green Iranians.


Yep, and a nasty Russian traitor to boot.



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#10 •••
@SergeantLynch

The alien will look like Slim Pickens riding a red saucer.

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#11 •••

Hope you don’t get kidnapped by an alien. They will have the last laugh.

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#12 •••
@Debby, @Shoresy

Hmmmm.


Maybe Aliens are like Epsteinian girls, but without the angst.


Shoresy would be laughing then.

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#13 •••
@SergeantLynch

That would be his dream come true.

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#14 •••
@Savant

Pacifism promotes a weak society. There will always be an opposing force so long as there is evil in the world. Evil people have evil motivations, and they will seek to destroy good. The force of good has to be prepared to defend or be offensive towards evil lest evil destroy it. We can use subjective examples of good and evil like US military vs China. If the US military is a force of good, but weak, it will be conquered by evil, which is China. Evil seeks to corrupt goodness, and power and strength are needed to oppose evil. Global peace is not possible with evil present.


So I say: conquer China. just kidding

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#15 •••
@Skipper
There will always be an opposing force so long as there is evil in the world

Sure, and there will always be non-evil people who fight to stop them. But if you can reduce both factions by reducing fighting in general, you should, as it will mitigate the fallout.

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#16 •••
@Savant

Blessed are the peace makers for they shall be called Sons of God. Matthew 5:9.

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#17 •••
@Savant
Sure, and there will always be non-evil people who fight to stop them. But if you can reduce both factions by reducing fighting in general, you should, as it will mitigate the fallout.

So your goal is to have smaller armies fight each other? I don't see your ideology as realistic. I don't think the answer to peace is telling people "don't fight," unironically. One should have courage in danger and be willing to be violent if necessary.


Evil grows and grows until it reaches a culmination, which can be represented by a war happening. For there to be less fighting, there has to be less evil first. So, I think a solution towards peace is to snuff out or mitigate sources of evil that lead to wars.


Wars will always continue as long as evil is present. Wars are a marker of evil's existence.

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#18 •••
@Debby
Blessed are the peace makers for they shall be called Sons of God. Matthew 5:9.


May I ask how you legitimately have over 3500 posts on this website already?


I was gone too long I'm afraid

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#19 •••
@Skipper

It's all basically about hormones and procreation, though thinking species likes to dress it up more or less extensively.

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#20 •••
@Skipper
May I ask how you legitimately have over 3500 posts on this website already?
I was gone too long I’m afraid.

I also have over 2098 mentions unlike your 182 mentions. Indication nobody reads your posts.

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#21 •••
@Skipper
I don't think the answer to peace is telling people "don't fight," unironically. One should have courage in danger and be willing to be violent if necessary.

I'm saying that whatever message you have will be filtered through propaganda. If you say "x, y, z justifies war" then the Nazis will tell people that the Polish did x, y, z and so they need to go to war. But if you tell everyone to be die-hard pacifists, then it will be hard to convince them to fight for anything.

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#22 •••
@Savant

Good point. Self-defense was actually how Hitler did justify many of his wars, especially invasion of USSR which was presented as "USSR was about to attack Germany".


Whatever standard one uses for justified war, fails to account for people failing to understand the very same standard, and misusing and misunderstanding standard.

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#23 •••
@Savant

this was best post ever, by the way. I dont usually see people justify pacifism and complete anti-war stance.


People usually condemn some wars and justify others.

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#24 •••
@SatanLucy

Name a war that did more good than harm?

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#25 •••
@SergeantLynch
It's all basically about hormones and procreation, though thinking species likes to dress it up more or less extensively.

I think that's a trivial way of looking at it. Also implies good/righteousness is a man-made conception which I disagree with.

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#26 •••
@Debby
I also have over 2098 mentions unlike your 182 mentions. Indication nobody reads your posts.


I did the math and in comparison to comments and mentions, only 50% of your comments have produced a mention while over 70% of my comments have produced a mention, meaning people consistently reply back to me more than you.

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#27 •••
@Savant
I'm saying that whatever message you have will be filtered through propaganda. If you say "x, y, z justifies war" then the Nazis will tell people that the Polish did x, y, z and so they need to go to war. But if you tell everyone to be die-hard pacifists, then it will be hard to convince them to fight for anything.


Are you saying for all world leaders to tell their people to be pacifists? I’m wondering which group the message should be told to first. Should it start in the terrorist groups or in a place like the U.S. or in China? I think people would be unwilling to be pro-pacifist if they see their enemy hasn’t agreed to be pro-pacifist yet

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#28 •••
@Skipper

Mahatma Gandhi was a pacifist and was successful at getting the British to withdraw from India that ended the colonization of India.

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#29 •••
@Skipper
Are you saying for all world leaders to tell their people to be pacifists?

The thought experiment was that you are a philosopher listened to by a global audience and don't know exactly which countries will be evil in the future.


I think people would be unwilling to be pro-pacifist if they see their enemy hasn’t agreed to be pro-pacifist yet

Pacifism as an ideology isn't opportunistic, it's the belief that war is wrong no matter what. So if you argue that successfully, then it won't matter to pacifists in the US or China or anywhere whether their enemies have become pacifists, they still won't fight.

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#30 •••
@Debby
Mahatma Gandhi was a pacifist and was successful at getting the British to withdraw from India that ended the colonization of India.


Yeah, that counters what I was saying because the British were willing to kill or beat them I think. They might’ve beat some of them if I remember.


I was meaning more with the world powers that have militaries and are currently violent in some capacities. Ghandi didn’t have world military powers at his disposal. Would the U.S. army become pacifist if they knew North Korea superpower was still in active domination mode? That’s my point, and I don’t think U.S. army would concede being a superpower in warfare

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