Evidence of the afterlife

linate wrote:

If thats not ai you're using, you debate like an academic. I dont have time to check the logic strength of your points, but you're good

Thanks, I rarely use AI except to search a subject matter, but I've studied philosophy of mind for decades, pretty much the only reason I hang around here is I'm hoping somebody will bring it up so I can suck them into a debate.

It's original, but most of what I wrote comes from things I wrote before. I've been writing about the subject for decades.

My thinking on the afterlife comes from a strictly non-academic source, and it's not the least bit logically coercive; I don't even think I can explain it. I doubt anyone else, but I suspect you will appreciate the story I have to tell.

In short, believe I may have seen someone who was dead, here's what happened:

My screen name comes from Therapeutic Horseback Riding (Hippotherapy), something I was passionate about for almost 40 years, we use horses to provide therapy for a wide range of developmental disabilities, usually with children. A typical session has a licensed therapist conducting the lesson, a leader, leading the horse, and two "sidewalkers", who walk alongside the horse, interacting and helping the kids with the lesson, and most importantly, protecting them in the event of an emergency situation. Our horse farm had the pastures, a barn, parking, and outside arena near the front gate, this was our staging area where we tack the horses and mount the kids. About two hundred yards away, across a field, was our second arena, that one was a covered arena, and the entire farm was enclosed by an eight-foot chain link fence.

We are walking around in circles all day long and I was known for getting distracted, thinking about work, or politics, or philosophy of mind, or whatever. When I got called out for not paying attention, I would say "Sorry, I was having an epiphany" which was the ongoing joke in the program, it made all the kids laugh, and all the parents have to explain to their kids what an epiphany was, when you are doing it right, therapeutic riding is a great time for everyone. OK, the stage is set.

Here's my story: I was sidewalking in the covered arena with a young autistic girl maybe ten years old, our barn manager and another volunteer were leaning against the fence watching us and I was a thousand miles away, lost in thought. As we came around towards the open side of the arena, I saw an old women standing by the fence and for some reason it startled me, all she did was smile at me, but somehow, in that smile, I heard her say "You know what to do". I snapped to attention, and right then the horse stumbled, going head over heels, as the girl fell past me, I pulled her off the horse and turned away to protecter her. The two by the fence ran out to help, in the end everyone was fine, and when we got our student to stop crying, we got her back on the horse and finished the lesson (that's important so they don't develop a fear of horses). Before we went back to the staging area, I asked the two watching where that woman went, and they said they didn't see a woman.

So, we walked back to the staging area and when we dismounted the girl, she ran over to her mother and began frantically signing what happened (she was verbally noncommunicative). I was asking people about the woman and nobody saw here which seemed strange to me, she was too old to climb the fence and it seemed to me she would have been pretty conspicuous walking back across the field and my team were all the type that would have gone out to help such an old woman if they saw her walking across the field. Mom starts coming over and I'm thinking, Ruh Roh, I'm gonna have to do some fancy talking to convince Mom her daughter was in no real danger. As she approached, I said, "I guess she told you what happened", and Mom replied, "yes, and she told me she saw her grandmother out there". I told her "I saw her too, where did she go, I want to thank her", and Mom replied telling me, "Dave, her grandmother died two years ago". This happened maybe 15 - 20 years ago and thinking about what her mom said still sends a chill down my spine.

Anyway, for obvious reasons I rarely share this story, it was certainly an experience that I find meaningful but I can't tell you what it means. I don't even try to analyze it or explain it and I don't think it proves anything, all I can say is that it happened the way I'm telling you it happened and leave it at that.

There are thousands of stories like that, that make the afterlife very real.

Yes, walking around in circles all day can render one somewhat unbalanced.

And yes, thousands of "stories" indeed...Making the afterlife a story...So we therefore need to die before we can make a definitive judgement...As all stories are Not Dead Experiences.

Anyway, you two can go first and let me know.

SergeantLynch wrote:

Yes, walking around in circles all day can render one somewhat unbalanced.

Especially if you are unbalanced before you start walking..

And yes, thousands of "stories" indeed...Making the afterlife a story...So we therefore need to die before we can make a definitive judgement...As all stories are Not Dead Experiences.

That's all we have is stories, and as I said, mine is not logically coercive, I'm not sure any of them are, the evidence seems to be ambiguous at best, which is to say it's always presented as a choice we make.

If you had a vote asking if Sidewalker saw a ghost, angel, or whatever you want to call it, and if the choices were "yes", "no", and "I don't know", I would definately cast an "I don't know" vote because there are a lot of different ways to interpret it. This is not to say the "ghost" or "angel" interpretation is not an image of truth, it's just an acknowledgement that the truth of the matter can be expressed in many different ways.

Anyway, you two can go first and let me know.

OK, but when I appear hovering over your bed to tell you about it, I'm gonna do my best to scare the shit out of you, and then after I stop laughing, I'm gonna be saying "neener, neener, I told you so".

SkepticalOne wrote:

I was responding to your question “Does 'Cogito Ergo sum' mean nothing to you!?” which is the archetypal quote of Descartes, the OG "substance dualist". So yeah, substance dualism is what that quote means to me.

That's fair.

To be clear, you stated there was no evidence for consciousness, and 'Cogito ergo sum' is direct evidence of consciousness everyone has. That is the context I asked the question.

If it isn’t verifiable, it isn’t evidence as far as science is concerned.

By “emergent property”, you mean magic, right?

No, not at all. I think there is good evidence to accept consciousness and the brain are irrevocably tied together. 'Magic' would be how a non-material mind works with a physical body.

I think there is much more evidence to the contrary, but I’ll need to do a pretty long response to explain it, no time right now, I’ll need to come back later to argue it. 

You don’t want to have a formal debate about it, do you?

'Magic' would be how a non-material mind works with a physical body.

Just because you don’t say “abracadabra” when you invoke the miraculous  power of the word “emergent”, doesn’t mean it isn’t magic.

Neurophysiologist and Nobel laureate Sir John Eccles and philosopher of science Karl Popper have both referred to emergentism as “promissory materialism”, Sir John Eccles stated, “Promissory materialism is a superstition without a rational foundation.

You would think they would have been familiar with emergent properties back in 1977. I was young, but I distinctly remember water being wet back then. 🤔

I agree that they were familiar with the concept, if not, they probably wouldn’t have commented on it. I also think they recognized that every materialist account of “emergence” involved that step two mentioned in the comic I posted.

Forearmed is forewarned.

I will rub myself with garlic oil, have a cross tattooed onto my torso, put plugs in my ears and wedge a cork up my arse for good measure...Mrs Lynch won't be best pleased if I shit the bed.

And if I go before you, I haven't got a clue where you live, so I think I will just hover above my nubile young neighbours bed for a while...If I'm going to have an Afterlife Experience it's going to be a horny one.

SergeantLynch wrote:

Forearmed is forewarned.

I'm pretty sure that's backward.

I will rub myself with garlic oil, have a cross tattooed onto my torso, put plugs in my ears and wedge a cork up my arse for good measure...Mrs Lynch won't be best pleased if I shit the bed.

I thought you already did all that.

And if I go before you, I haven't got a clue where you live, so I think I will just hover above my nubile young neighbours bed for a while...If I'm going to have an Afterlife Experience it's going to be a horny one.

Good point, I don't know where you live either, but now that I think about it, I don't actually need to know where you live, but I do need to know where your nubile young neighbor lives.

She lives next door.

And yes, upon inspection it was indeed backwards.

And as yet I do not require Trump diapers.

Trump’s diaper will make you forget your current life and make you feel your after life.

The human brain developed logic through evolutionary adaptation and pattern recognition, building complex reasoning networks over millions of years atop older survival-based neural architecture. That is how the brain developed consciousness.

Debby wrote:

Trump’s diaper will make you forget your current life and make you feel your after life.

Yes, such is the wonder of a smooth and active digestive tract.

People sitting behind Trump at his campaigns already feel their afterlife is already upon them fueled by his stench.

If it isn’t verifiable, it isn’t evidence as far as science is concerned.

That is true. However, the post I responded to said nothing of scientific evidence. It referred to 'proof' which is not scientific, but philosophical.

"Yes, there is currently no proof that consciousness exists after death, but there no proof that consciousness exists before death either."

I think there is much more evidence to the contrary, but I’ll need to do a pretty long response to explain it, no time right now, I’ll need to come back later to argue it.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts.

You don’t want to have a formal debate about it, do you?

I find this subject fascinating. I'm not opposed to a debate if we can hammer out an agreeable resolution. I would also need to refresh/catch-up my understanding of the subject.

Just because you don’t say “abracadabra” when you invoke the miraculous power of the word “emergent”, doesn’t mean it isn’t magic.

I really wonder how you are defining "magic". Is it something akin to 'ignorance'?

Magic is that deep sense of wonder at supernatural events.