Why God allows suffering evenrthough he loves us

Started by fauxlaw

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#1 •••

Many people lose their faith even after spending years in faith and devotion to him, but falter, and blame him when something bad happens to them or someone they love, wondering how a loving God can allow such suffering to fall upon them, as if suffering is deserved only by those who ignore or despise hmmm already, or deny his existence. They will, themselves, some of them, deny his existence when they observe that apparently good things [fame, fortune] happen to evil people.

I will just say, now, that I do not agree these are reasons to deny God, but I'll wait fir your comments for a while before revealing my reasons for continuing to affirm his existence, and even direct involvement in our lives.

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We tell God what to do and then blame Him for our errors.

- Dr. Pet Dragon of Sorbonne University

#2 •••
@fauxlaw

You're making a claim but withholding your argument until you hear ours? A bit unusual for an OP, but okay.


I guess I'll begin with why I don't find the usual theodicies very persuasive. I'll stipulate that my beef only applies to a god who created everything ex nihilo; gods who hold power in the universe but didn't create suffering or evil are not subject to my arguments.


  1. Suffering serves some constructive purpose: Justifies the limited amount of constructive suffering in the world, sure, but not the gratuitous amount of destructive suffering.
  2. Suffering exists because God wants us to have free will: Passing over the fact that this argument is curiously found nowhere in the Bible, all kinds of natural evil exists which has nothing to do with human choice. Animals suffer terribly.
  3. Suffering exists because without it happiness and pleasure could not: The contrast theodicy doesn't persuade me because it only justifies the minimum amount of suffering necessary to allow us to understand happiness, and the amount of suffering in the world far exceeds that.
  4. We brought suffering into the world ourselves: This just invites a critique of the whole Eden narrative and the concept of original sin.

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#3 •••
@fauxlaw

Remove the hypothetical GOD and the variable concept of love from the equation, and the variability of the human condition makes sense.


Basically you are left with evolved organic structures that are prone to ageing, malfunction, conflict and a tendency to overthink.


"Suffering" is simply a descriptive word that we use to describe certain symptoms of malfunctioning or conflicting systems.

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#4 •••

Why do prople think that the gods have nothing to do all day but make sure we arr happy and safe? They have things to do too.

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#5 •••

God isnt all good. God is a combination of good and evil. The idea that God is all good is a Christian/muslim idea. Ancient Greece saw Gods as good and evil, wise, powerful, playful...ect.

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#6 •••
@SatanLucy

The problem of evil assumes a benevolent god, though.

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#7 •••
@Wryly

Why?

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#8 •••
@fauxlaw

I'd say people are correct when they say they don't believe anymore in the "God" the bible describes. What they're actually saying is that Christianity doesn't make sense at all, which is something I was sustaining all along.


I'd rather suggest to find answers in other places. And if you don't mind, I'm gonna drop a teaching that helped me a lot to understand this world.


Buddha teaches why there is pain


I think people focus too much on pain and suffering. I don't blame them because pain is really unconfortable and doesn't let you live this life, but there are technique that they can use to focus more on happiness. We've got to accept this world as it is otherwise we'll suffer more than we have to.


There are cases, of course, where the pain is unbearable and unsolvable in which case I suggest euthanasia.

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#9 •••
@Polytheistwitch

Because it's trying to reconcile the existence of suffering with a loving god. Well, specifically with an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent god. If you have a god who is not benevolent to begin with, why does the existence of evil need to be explained?

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#10 •••
@Wryly

Omni benevolent God likely is a false idea about God. True God is both good and evil. The only way omni benevolent God can work is if we twist the idea of omni benevolent by making God be good towards both good and evil, which is something Bible does, saying God benefits all.

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#11 •••
@SatanLucy

Matthew 15:24

Jesus answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.

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#12 •••
@SatanLucy

Just maybe BK there is no such thing as a GOD or GODS.


Just a principle of creation development, existence and presumably and end.


Hypothetically, advanced super-intelligences are feasible and could be mistaken for GODS.



I would suggest, that GODS were an intelligent but naive human construct, and are now somewhat out of date.


Unfortunately though a lot of people are brainwashed before they have time to realise the stupidity of the situation.


And I suppose that some people still require a spiritual prop.





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#13 •••
God is a suffering God because God experiences pain and humility alongside humanity.

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#14 •••
@Wryly

There's no such thing as a benevolent god. Even the God of Abraham killed everybody in a flood.If that doesn't say i'm not benevolent, I don't know what does.

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#15 •••
@Polytheistwitch

GOD tales are rarely fluffy puppy dogs and kittens.


Usually a whole lot of wrath, condemnation and slaying.

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#16 •••
@SergeantLynch
Just maybe BK there is no such thing as a GOD or GODS


Sadly for atheists, belief in God costs nothing and comes with possible rewards and actual rewards as well, lack of mentioned belief doesnt benefit a person at all, but does come with costs which atheists pay for in this life too. Now, you can rant as much as you want, I am sure your atheist friends praise your lack of belief as some strange quality to be proud of, as it supports their delusions.

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#17 •••
@fauxlaw

St. Augustine had an answer to this question in City of God. In his very early writings he seemed to believe in Manicheanism - whereby God is not omnipotent and partakes of good only. His more mature writings, after he read Plato (whom in The Republic seemed to suggest a Manichean answer to the problem of evil himself) led him to think that evil was more the absence of God's good, and that human understanding of evil is always limited. The divine plan of God is without question (for Augustine), and to try and conceive of divine providence is an arrogant and - what's more - prideful sin. This is also connected to Augustine's conception of pride as the Original Sin - in eating the fruit and putting themselves above God, Adam and Eve's original crime was pride.


That said, I remain unconvinced by this. If the divine plan is above human comprehension, then politically inclined despots could (as was done throughout the medieval period) assume authority on Earth through evil means and simply defer to God when asked what justified their having power. And Augustine seems to be ok with this if memory serves. Passive obedience toward the state insofar as it does not prevent one from following God's laws (and it is subject to so much interpretation who is to say what is and isn't if the divine law is unconceivable in human terms) legitimizes unjust authority (to be sure, Augustine thinks we still are ultimately responsible for our actions and all deserve damnation because of the original sin - even babies and unborn). Aquinas is better on this front despite his writing being soporific to the extreme. And then, Hobbes, having seen the effect of the Schools adopting Aquinas' conception of natural law, is horrified at the revolutionary zeal it apparently fostered.


I think a better answer comes from Rousseau. He suggests that humans are not bedeviled by horrible passions in their natural state (at a time before written history and society) but rather, it is the founding of civil society, the division of labor, private property, and reason (and one can see how much he diverges from his Enlightenment Era brethren here) that exacerbates inequalities and creates evil. He implies, I think, that man's advancement is not ordained by God, but that it proceeds at too feverish a pace. Many people think that this means that original man - for Rousseau - is good (no less than Hannah Arendt, in fact) but that seems to be a serious error. Good and evil is unconceivable without language and society, and Rousseau says as much. There is no justice on a desert island.


Of course, no matter what evil confronts you, McDonalds is always here to provide you the good.


I'm Lovin' It!


-RealMcDonalds


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#18 •••
@fauxlaw

Looking back at my answer I guess I turned the question more into "where does injustice come from" and not "why does an all loving God allow such evil" but really I think a proper answer needs to grapple with its origins. If good and evil are manmade constructs that are far-flung from Biblical definitions of good and evil, then maybe its a pesky social fact that developed with society. I guess that does kind of come close to Augustine's position, but that doesn't mean that people should just submit to authority. Great acts of violence were perpetrated against colonizing forces and such in the past, and the European revolutions were punctuated by violent upheaval. Submission in these cases would have spelled the premature death of freedom (well, bourgeois freedom anyway).


Alternatively, the Westboro Baptist Church thinks God hates all the right people and that he made certain people for us to hate him. But they are also dumb and that's the official position of McDonalds (TM).


-RealMcDonalds

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#19 •••
@SatanLucy
Omni benevolent God likely is a false idea about God. True God is both good and evil. The only way omni benevolent God can work is if we twist the idea of omni benevolent by making God be good towards both good and evil, which is something Bible does, saying God benefits all.


Theists today don't really want to believe in a half good, half evil God. Most would rather grapple with the problem of evil than adjust their beliefs about the character of their creator.

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#20 •••
@Polytheistwitch
There's no such thing as a benevolent god. Even the God of Abraham killed everybody in a flood.If that doesn't say i'm not benevolent, I don't know what does.


Definitely agree, but the problem of evil isn't necessarily about the biblical God. It's popularly attributed to Epicurus, who afaik never read the Torah.

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#21 •••
@Wryly
Theists today don't really want to believe in a half good, half evil God. Most would rather grapple with the problem of evil than adjust their beliefs about the character of their creator. - #19


Theists in general, or specifically Monotheists? Abrahamic?

Reminds me of PhilosophicalJay's thread.


What western pagans/polytheists are missing

https://www.debatecraft.com/forum/c/religion/posts/1f/what-western-paganspolytheists-are-missing


I seem to remember a lot of Pagan Gods being evil at times, or human or natural disaster evil one might say. Depending on the story.


But then you say Theists today.

Lot of different interpretations over time and space, of the Abrahamic God, I'm sure.

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#22 •••
@SatanLucy

Hmmmmm.


I'm not sure that a thoughtfully composed honest reply constitutes a rant...But whatever.


And religion is something that I tend to discuss in forums like this, rather than with friends or colleagues.


And basically theism and atheism are both states of mind relative to the same creation and existence hypotheses.


Though from my point of view, hypotheses remain hypotheses until they can be unequivocally verified.


To assume that magical deities must exist without actual proof, is sort of jumping the gun.


So then BK, give me a free introduction to a real GOD and we can take it from there.

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#23 •••

Deities are beings and as such have failures. Some are even evil. Zeus comes to mind. Most polytheists know the worlds work on chaos and order. Chaos disrupts which is sometimes necessary. The order tends to bring peace and complacency. You need both to keep things moving forward. Good and evil exists in both states.

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#24 •••
@SergeantLynch
I'm not sure that a thoughtfully composed honest reply constitutes a rant


It does when all you do is repeat same conclusion claim 15 times in a different way. And of course you dont know that uncertainty principle doesnt favor you:

1. God exists and can be pleased

2. God exists and cannot be pleased

3. God doesnt exist


Which one of these 3 favors atheists? 2 and 3 favor religious people. So none favor atheists, unless you think God is pleased with atheists specifically, which is an absurd conclusion given how much atheists insult God they dont even believe in. And if you believe in such God, then you cant be atheist at the same time. So atheist cannot even reasonably assume 1 withoout stopping with being atheist.

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#25 •••
@Wryly
Theists today don't really want to believe in a half good, half evil God


Lol which theists? Nordic Gods were always partially evil. Ancient Greece Gods, some were more evil than good. If you are talking about Christianity, islam and hinduism... well, sure, they have the problem of evil, and its only a problem for them, along with problem of free will vs omniscience. Thats what happens when you give hundreds of attributes to God and suddenly some attributes contradict each other.

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#26 •••
@Leaning

Good question. Western monotheists primarily. And I did say theists today; in the past at least, Jewish peoples were inclined to see all that is good and bad in the world coming from God, as you can see in passages like Isaiah 45.

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#27 •••
@SatanLucy
Lol which theists? Nordic Gods were always partially evil. Ancient Greece Gods, some were more evil than good. If you are talking about Christianity, islam and hinduism... well, sure, they have the problem of evil, and its only a problem for them, along with problem of free will vs omniscience. Thats what happens when you give hundreds of attributes to God and suddenly some attributes contradict each other.


See above.


The ancient Greeks still praised their gods as being just and wise. Ditto for Odin and Jupiter and so on. Did they view their gods as partly evil, or simply capricious and wrathful, which were just seen as common traits of power?

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#28 •••
@Wryly
The ancient Greeks still praised their gods as being just and wise. Ditto for Odin and Jupiter and so on. 


No, they saw their Gods as powerful and wise. Hera was evil God. Loki was a trickster. Zeus was rapist. Hades too was rapist who kidnapped a Goddess and took her to underworld where he raped her. So I am afraid all good Gods exist only in Christian fairy tales.

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#29 •••
@Wryly

Believing the gods are powerful beings, and they can do things for you, especially when it comes to making sure you have food to feed your family and village, is a lot different than just assuming their good or overlooking their evil behavior. Let's say you have a professor in college who's excellent in his field and you're getting a lot of great education from him. But you find out he sleeps with his students. You have a choice. You can continue to keep your mouth shut and learn from him. Or you can turn him in. Working with certain deities would require you to do the first. There's a reason that there are deities today that people don't worship at all. There's way more choice in polytheism in what you do and don't do, because society no longer looks at the gods as controlling the natural world as much as they did then.

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#30 •••

Jesus was crucified before he could erase suffering in the world.

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