Jesus Is Not God

The idea that Jesus didn't know about heaven stems from biblical passages like 

Matthew 24:36, where He said only the Father knows the day or hour of His return, leading to the understanding that while fully God, Jesus voluntarily limited His divine knowledge as a human (the Kenosis doctrine, Philippians 2:5-8) to fulfill His mission and experience human life,

Debby wrote: Even there Jesus did not know what was to come next after his sacrifice. But it ended well Jesus was resurrected and taken to heaven.

There a few thing wrong with what you state there.

Dust off your bible sunshine, you've' failed again.

(1) God knew and didn't tell Mary.

(2) Jesus knew he would be resurrected.

(3) The disciples knew because Jesus told them so. Although, when they heard he had "risen" they didn't believe it. Some faith in their master's teaching they had, didn't they?

Debby wrote:The idea that Jesus didn't know about heaven stems from biblical passages like 

Matthew 24:36, where He said only the Father knows the day or hour of His return, leading to the understanding that while fully God, Jesus voluntarily limited His divine knowledge as a human (the Kenosis doctrine, Philippians 2:5-8) to fulfill His mission and experience human life,

Oh stop it ffs! Jesus didn't know, but god did..as clearly shown from your own bible... The bible you have never read for yourself.

Debby wrote:to fulfill His mission and experience human life,

Ok, Why did he have to experience human life?

Jesus knew he was going to be resurrected, but he did not know he was going to heaven soon after. That he only had 40 days left on earth.

Jesus had to experience human life 

to fully represent, redeem, and sympathize with humanity, becoming the perfect substitute for sinful people by living a sinless life, fulfilling God's law, and dying on the cross as an atoning sacrifice, enabling believers to receive righteousness and eternal life through His obedience. He became human to identify with our struggles, showing God's love and offering hope, while also being able to serve as our merciful High Priest and mediator. 

Key Reasons for Jesus's Humanity:

1. To Represent Humanity: As the "Second Adam," Jesus lived a perfect, obedient life where the first Adam failed, representing humanity before God and fulfilling God's requirements for righteousness.
2. To Be a Substitute Sacrifice: Because God's justice requires payment for sin (death), Jesus had to be human to die on our behalf, shedding His blood as the ultimate atonement for sins.
3. To Sympathize with Our Weakness: By experiencing hunger, thirst, temptation, and sorrow, Jesus could genuinely empathize with human suffering and offer comfort and understanding.
4. To Fulfill Prophecy & Show God's Love: Taking on human form demonstrated God's deep love and commitment to connect with people, not as a distant deity, but as one who lived among them.
5. To Be a Mediator: His dual nature (fully God, fully man) made Him the perfect mediator, a human representative who could bridge the gap between God and humanity. 

In essence, Jesus's humanity was essential for Him to succeed where humanity failed, to pay the penalty for sin, and to understand and minister to people from within their own experience. 

Debby wrote:to fulfill His mission and experience human life,

Stephen wrote:Ok, Why did he have to experience human life?

Debby wrote: Jesus had to experience human life 

to fully represent, redeem, and sympathize with humanity, [.......]

OK , just so I am clear on this. Are you saying that "god had to come as a man (Jesus) to experience what it was like to have human experiences and emotions?

Jesus in the gospels also says "i am the father are one". and 'one' in that context didn't mean the same person but the same essence. and i think it was at that point that the jews tried to stone him for blasphemy.

This does not prove that Jesus is god. And what he actually says is: I and my Father are one. John 10: 29 where also in that chapter he states: the works that I do in my Father's name

Is all this shows is that Jesus the man (see#13above) and god are in agreement, I am "one" with my friends because we agree on many things.

And you the evidence that supports my claim above has gone unchallenged by you and others here; so I shall repeat them.

Deuteronomy 6:4 The Lord our God is one Lord.

Isaiah 43:11 "I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no saviour."

Joel 2:27 "You shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am Yahweh your God and there is none else."

Mark 12:28-34 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.

And from the mouth of Jesus himself.....!

Luke 18:19. WHY DO YOU CALL ME GOOD? JESUS ANSWERED. NO ONE IS GOOD- EXCEPT GOD ALONE"  

And here's a few more that support my claim . these are not my "interpretations " they are quotes from the BIBLE!

1 Corinthians 8:6 " yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ.

John 14:28 “ I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I"

1 Timothy 2:5  For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus.

Acts 3:13 The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus.

Whats your response to this?

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God… and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us” (John 1:1,14).

You all know that there would have been no Jesus if people had iPhones back then, don't you?

The idea that "there would have been no Jesus if people had iPhones" is a popular hypothetical in pop culture and comedy, suggesting that modern technology and social media would have undermined the miraculous or historical nature of his ministry

. 

Arguments surrounding this scenario generally break down into two categories:

Arguments for Why "Jesus" Would Not Have Worked

1. Destruction of Mystery and Credibility: Some believe that cameras and smartphones would have made it harder to maintain the miraculous nature of his ministry. Viral videos could have been scrutinized, edited, or labeled as fake.
2. Instant Scandal and Division: Social media could have amplified criticism from religious leaders. Sites might have been dedicated to exposing his association with "known sinners" (e.g., tax collectors), damaging his credibility before his message could spread.
3. The "Blue Checkmark" Irony: Comedy sketches imagine Jesus with few followers despite a "blue checkmark," suggesting his message of humility might not have gained traction in a click-driven culture. 

Arguments for Why Jesus Would Still Exist

1. Faster Spread of the Gospel: Conversely, some argue that the same technology that can destroy can also spread information instantly. Social media might have allowed the message to travel globally in minutes rather than decades.
2. Verification of Miracles: High-definition video could have provided undeniable evidence of miracles (e.g., healings, walking on water), potentially making it easier for people to believe.
3. Adaptation to Modern Tools: Other hypothetical scenarios suggest Jesus might have used tools like Uber, Postmates, or Facebook ads for his ministry, adapting to the technology of the time to reach people. 

In historical context, some researchers argue that the Roman world already had a functional, albeit slower, "social media" system through papyrus letters, town criers, and the state gazette, allowing news to travel across the empire in weeks. 

You all know that there would have been no Jesus if people had iPhones back then, don't you?

He practically invented going viral, getting 2 billion followers without any technology at all, imagine if he had iPhones and the Internet, with a Blog and Tick Tock videos, he would be the King of the Influencers.

Beam me up Scotty.

In Christianity, Jesus is considered God (the Son) 

because of biblical claims that He performed divine acts (miracles, raising the dead, forgiving sins), claimed divine attributes (eternality, being the "I AM"), and is described as God by apostles, with His resurrection being ultimate proof of His unique divine-human nature, necessary for humanity's salvation and reconciliation with God. This belief stems from the doctrine of the Trinity, which holds Jesus as one person in one God, existing alongside the Father and Holy Spirit. 

Biblical Evidence & Claims

1. Divine Identity: Jesus used "I AM" statements (like "Before Abraham was, I am"), echoing God's name in the Old Testament, which Jews understood as a claim to divinity.
2. Creator & Sustainer: Scripture identifies Jesus as the one through whom all things were made, sharing in God's creative power.
3. Authority & Attributes: He claimed authority to forgive sins, judge humanity, and described Himself as "the way, the truth, and the life".
4. Miracles: His miraculous acts (healing, controlling nature, resurrection) demonstrated power over creation, attesting to His deity.
5. Worship: Jesus accepted worship, an act reserved for God alone, and never rebuked people for it. 

Theological Significance

1. The Redeemer: As God in human flesh (the God-man or Incarnation), His death was an infinite sacrifice, sufficient to atone for humanity's sins against an infinite God.
2. Victory Over Death: His divine nature made His resurrection possible, proving His power over sin and death and securing eternal life for believers. 

The Trinity

1. The concept of Jesus as God is part of the doctrine of the Trinity: one God existing as three co-equal persons (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) with one divine nature, a belief developed from biblical accounts. 

A lotta good points

Are you going to change your religion “unknown” to “believer”?

Whats your response to this?

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God… and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us” (John 1:1,14).

Are you claiming that this verse is suggesting that John is referring to Jesus?

You can keep posting your cut-N pastes.

But you keep failing to answer my one simple question.

Why did god have to be come flesh?

Debby wrote:to fulfill His mission and experience human life,

Why?

Thats not obvious that john was referring to jesus? What could John be referring to otherwise?

..You can keep posting your cut-N pastes.

But you keep failing to answer my one simple question.

Why did god have to be come flesh...

This thread is about whether jesus is god and you keep rationalizing away the verses that support it

Your other thread is about why he became human, dont get the thread purposes twisted

My theory is that only perfect Love in imperfect conditions could defeat sin and death and that god wanted to do that as a human. Perfect love could only saved from death if perfect love was human.

Other christians use legal atonement that says to be a fitting sacrifice the object of the sacrifice had to be perfect which only god can do

As ive said elsewhere you could still insist on why these have to be done this way but you ignore that answers are given and that you just dont like the answers. And ultimately you are right that god could have done things differently but you ignore that he chose these certain ways

Just because you dont like the way god does things doesnt mean theyre not true

linate wrtote: Your other thread is about why he became human, dont get the thread purposes twisted

Nope. This thread is concerned with Jesus not being god.

Post #22 on this thread Why DO Christians believe god became flesh https://www.debatecraft.com/forum/c/religion/posts/jt/why-do-christians-believe-god-became-flesh?page=1&comment_number=24

is where it was you that started crossing threads. and and making comments that caused me to go back to correct you.

regardless: lets park that for now.

lets stick with Jesus is not god.

You cannot, and haven't d show anywhere that Jesus is also god. have you?

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God… and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us” (John 1:1,14).

Stephen wrote: Are you claiming that this verse is suggesting that John is referring to Jesus?

linate wrote: not obvious that john was referring to jesus? What could John be referring to otherwise?

But I believe that I have categorically shown that Jesus cannot also be god using the bible. I repeat these are NOT my interpretations but the word of god as believed to have been spoken by god in the BIBLE. and I shall give you a few more reasons a few more reasons why Jesus is NOT god.

Numbers 23:19

King James Version

19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Hosea 11:9

King James Version

9 I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.

JESUS SAID: from the same gospel that YOU chose your 1:1,14 verse from

John 8:40 KJ V

40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

John 14:28 KJV Father is greater than I.

Then in;

Acts 2:22KJV

22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God :

1 Timothy 2:5KJV

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Luke 18:19 KJV

19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

We haven't even got to where Jesus himself in many bible verses calls himself only the "Son of man".

Can you now show those of us reading here how these verses from the bible prove that Jesus is also god?

Me and Debby have shown you explicit verses and context that support Jesus as God. That's at least open to interpretation. To say that's not a reasonable position isn't reasonable. It's irrational to say it's not open to interpretation. You keep ignoring the verses we gave you including the word became flesh verse and the Jesus referred to as God verses by followers in Bible. I get that it's possible again that these don't prove it but it's at least a reasonable interpretation. And at the very least the Bible makes clear that Jesus is the son of God and that's significant

According to Christian theology, God (as Jesus) experienced human life 

to bridge the gap caused by sin, serve as a perfect High Priest and Mediator, demonstrate ultimate love, provide a model for holiness, and enable humanity to become partakers in the divine nature, fulfilling salvation and revealing God's glory through suffering and grace. 

Reasons for the Incarnation (God becoming human):

1. To Save Humanity: Sin separated people from God, and only a perfect, God-man could bridge this divide, offering forgiveness and reconciliation through his sacrificial death.
2. To Be Our Mediator: Jesus needed a human nature to represent humanity before God, acting as the one mediator between God and man (1 Timothy 2:5).
3. To Suffer and Sympathize: His human experience allowed him to be tempted and suffer, making him a merciful High Priest who could sympathize with human weakness (Hebrews 2:17).
4. To Fulfill Righteousness: Jesus had to live a perfect human life, obeying God where Adam failed, to fulfill God's justice and earn righteousness for others.
5. To Show God's Love: The incarnation demonstrated God's immense love for humanity by entering into their world and sharing their suffering, proving He hadn't abandoned them.
6. To Model Holiness: Jesus' perfect life provided an example of how humans should live, love, and pray, even amidst suffering.
7. To Transform Humanity: By becoming human, Jesus made it possible for humans, through the Spirit, to become adopted children of God and share in His divine nature (2 Peter 1:4). 

In essence, God didn't experience human life out of necessity for Himself, but as a chosen act of love and redemption for humanity, enabling salvation, reconciliation, and divine transformation. 

Me and Debby have shown you explicit verses and context that support Jesus as God.

And I have shown you BIBLICAL verses that counters your argument.

It's irrational to say it's not open to interpretation

I don't believe I have even suggested that. But the Christian will always attempt to "interpret" in their favour . And who can blame them, considering that the bible, New Testament in particular is compiled of ambiguous half stories that certainly contradict themselves, which allows them to interpret as they feel fit.? But this doesn't mean that you and Christians have literary licence re rewrite and interpret scripture to fit your religious agenda or beliefs.

You keep ignoring the verses we gave you 

Nope. but you certainly dismiss the verses that I offer contrary to your claim with an arrogant wave of the hand. I read them as I see them and they, in my opinion, do not support the Christian claim that Jesus is also god. And what you ignore is that for every verse you offer to support your claim , that there is a verse that denies/counters your claim.....IN THE BIBLE!

And at the very least the Bible makes clear that Jesus is the son of God and that's significant.

And I haven't ever said any different! I have said numerous times that Jesus was the son of god but only in the respect that to be called "Son of God" is nothing more than a title and that there other sons of god in the bible, Solomon and David for instance. And wasn't the whole nation of Israel called "sons god" in the bible? . . I would also agree that Jesus believed, or was led to believe that he was a king of the Jews, but non of this goes anywhere in proving Jesus was also Yahweh the Hebrew god as you keep insisting. You have shown neither evidence nor proof.

Me and Debby

Above you have mentioned Debby

Well Debby once offered as support for her claim/s a scholar by the name of Professor Bart Denton Ehrman. As usual she hadn't done her homework. But this is what he had to say on the matter.

"During his lifetime Jesus himself didn't call himself god and didn't consider himself to be god. And none of his disciples had even an inkling at all that he was god".

All very odd don't you think that the gospels forgot to mention something as important as Jesus also being a god?

I suppose "Debby" will think twice now before she invokes the name of her hero and saviour Bart Ehrman

Jesus didn't say "I am God" in those exact words 

because it would have been blasphemous and misunderstood in his Jewish context, but he made numerous indirect claims to divinity through titles like "Son of Man," "I AM" (echoing God's name), "I and the Father are one," and statements like "you have seen the Father," which his audience recognized as divine claims, leading to accusations of blasphemy and attempts to stone him. His approach, focusing on his relationship with the Father and performing divine works, revealed his identity over time rather than a simple declaration. 

Reasons for his indirect approach:

1. Cultural Context: A Jew claiming to be God was blasphemy; Jesus emphasized being God's Son, sent by the Father, a claim interpreted as divine by his listeners.
2. Revelation Over Declaration: He revealed his divinity gradually, telling followers not to reveal he was the Messiah at times, suggesting a planned unveiling.
3. "I AM" Statements: In John's Gospel, Jesus uses "I AM" (e.g., "I AM the Bread of Life," "I AM the Light of the World"), echoing God's name revealed to Moses (Exodus 3:14), signifying his divine nature.
4. "Son of Man" Title: This title, from Daniel 7, implied divine authority and judgment, not just humanity, to those familiar with scripture.
5. "You have seen the Father": Statements like this (John 14:9) were understood as claims of oneness with God, prompting accusations of blasphemy. 

Evidence of his claims:

1. John 10:30: "I and the Father are one." (Leads to Jews picking up stones to stone him for blasphemy).
2. John 8:58: "Before Abraham was, I AM." (A claim to eternal existence).
3. Worship: He accepted worship, a practice reserved for God (Matthew 14:33). 

In essence, Jesus's life and words consistently pointed to his divine identity, though he framed it within his Jewish mission, allowing his actions and deeper statements to reveal who he was, rather than just stating it plainly. 

Jesus isn't just a son of God but THE Son of God.

Jesus didn't say "I am God" in those exact words 

Jesus didn't say it in any words...... until Christians attempted to put words in his mouth.

The Bible, particularly in Hebrews 1:8-10, shows God the Father calling Jesus "God," affirming Jesus' eternal divine nature, throne, and role as creator, which is a core Christian belief about Jesus' deity, though interpretations vary on how this fits with the concept of one God. 

Key Biblical References

1. Hebrews 1:8-10: "But about the Son he says, 'Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever...'" (This directly quotes Psalm 45:6-7, applying it to Jesus).
2. Titus 2:13: Refers to "our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ".
3. John 1:1: States the Word (Jesus) "was with God, and the Word was God". 

Christian Interpretation

1. Deity of Jesus: Christians believe these verses prove Jesus possesses divine attributes and is God incarnate (God in human flesh).
2. The Trinity: This concept fits within the doctrine of the Trinity, where God exists as Father, Son (Jesus), and Holy Spirit, all one in essence but distinct persons.
3. Sufficient Sacrifice: Jesus' divinity is seen as necessary for His death to be a sufficient sacrifice for humanity's sins, notes GotQuestions.org and Hills Bible Church. 

Alternative Views

1. Some interpretations, like those by Jehovah's Witnesses, suggest translations like "God is your throne" or "Your throne is God" are more accurate, distinguishing Jesus from the Almighty God. 

In essence, the passages are central to affirming Jesus' divine identity, with the Father's words in Hebrews being a powerful declaration of Jesus' deity, according to mainstream Christian theology. 

Hebrews 1:8-10: "But about the Son he says, 'Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever...'" (This directly quotes Psalm 45:6-7, applying it to Jesus).

This goes nowhere in proving that Jesus is also the Hebrew god Yahweh.

Titus 2:13: Refers to "our great God and our Savior, Jesus Christ".

You can't read can you? This verse speaks of two persons god AND Jesus : SEE>> ^"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" Titus2:13 kjv

1. John 1:1: States the Word (Jesus) "was with God, and the Word was God". 

Prove to me, with evidence, that the word - "WORD" is another name for Jesus . You can't . the CHRISTIAN belief that the "word" is somehow a reference to Jesus the man of the NT is wishful thinking if not utter desperation.

That was easy to Prove to you, with evidence, that the word - "WORD" is another name for Jesus . the CHRISTIAN belief that the "word" is somehow a reference to Jesus the man of the NT is wishful thinking if not utter desperation.

Read your Bible.

The identification of Jesus as "the Word" (Greek: 

Logos) is a core concept in Christian theology, primarily rooted in the writings of the Apostle John. The evidence shows that "the Word" is used to describe Jesus's pre-existent divinity, his role in creation, and his incarnation as a human. 

Here is the evidence proving that "the Word" is another name for Jesus:

1. Scriptural Evidence (The Gospel of John)

The Gospel of John directly identifies "the Word" as a person, specifically Jesus Christ, who was present with God before creation. 

1. John 1:1: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God".
2. John 1:14: "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory...". This verse explicitly states that the "Word" took on human form, which Christian theology identifies as the incarnation of Jesus. 

2. Scriptural Evidence (Revelation)

In the book of Revelation, the resurrected Jesus is again called by this specific title, emphasizing his authority and role in judgment. 

1. Revelation 19:13: "He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God". 

3. Meaning of Logos in Context

The Greek term Logos (translated as Word) was used in both Jewish and Greek thought to represent the agent of God's revelation. 

1. Expression of Thought: Logos means the expression of a thought or the message of God. Jesus is called the Word because he embodies God's total message to humanity.
2. Agent of Creation: John 1:3 notes that "All things were made through him," aligning with Old Testament depictions of God creating by his spoken word.
3. Spokesman for God: The title emphasizes Jesus as the ultimate Spokesman for God. 

4. Supporting Biblical Context

1. 1 John 1:1: Refers to Jesus as the "Word of life".
2. Hebrews 1:1-2: Indicates that in the last days, God has spoken through His Son, paralleling the concept of the Word as God's final message. 

In summary, the Bible uses the title "the Word" (Logos) to designate the second person of the Trinity, who is identified as Jesus Christ, the eternal mediator and revealer of God. 

Logos) is a core concept in Christian theology, primarily rooted in the writings of the Apostle John. The evidence shows that "the Word" is used to describe Jesus's pre-existent divinity, his role in creation, and his incarnation as a human. Here is the evidence proving that "the Word" is another name for Jesus:

This is utter nonsense. Your insistence that Jesus is also the Hebrew god Yahweh is risible. This is just stuff made up by Christians in the belief that it some how proves that Jesus was also the god of the Hebrews from the beginning.

"The Word" means nothing more than, and refers only to, Gods word, or the words of god. Lets see if I can make it perfectly clear to you as even a child would understand.

How does a Barrister or Lawyer represent The "Law"? After all, the law is nothing more than a big inanimate book of words, isn't it? Those words don't just jump from the law book and magically become verbal all on their own, do they?. NO! not until that is, a fleshy human that has been approved and accredited by his peers stands there as a REPRESENTATIVE of the LAW and interprets what these WORDS mean!

As the bible clear states Jesus was only a REPRESENTATIVE of the WORD/S of god, in other words FLESH was put onto the words.

Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God Act 2:22

An architects drawing is simply lines on paper until a human brings those lines to life in the form of a construction.

Suck it up. Your boy was no god, period!