I Didn’t Ask Anyone To Die For Me.

Started by Stephen

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#1 •••
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I didn't ask anyone to die for my crimes or sins or misdemeanours.


By all accounts, and after all the claims made by Christians of humans having “free will” someone did take it upon themselves and committed suicide on my behalf and I didn’t have a say in the matter.


And the idea that I would ask or want anyone to suffer for my crimes or sins is abhorrent and it appals me. Neither my brother nor Jesus is my keeper. And I will suffer and    `bare my own cross, '  as it is I that am responsible for my own actions.  


But who does the bible say is responsible for our crimes/sins?


The bible seems to suggest we alone are responsible. Deuteronomy11:16 “ take heed of yourself”.

And when the omnipotent lord God himself, he having unlimited power, appears to be unable to locate Able asks his brother;


Genesis4; 9  “Where is Abel your brother?”

He said, “I do not know. Am I my brother's keeper?


“Am I my brother's keeper?”

Is this to say that I am not responsible for anyone but myself, my actions and my own behaviour?


 Nowhere will we find a single reference where Jesus admits to his inner circle of coming to specifically do die for their sins. There are a few verses that could be crowbarred into suggesting that he did as much, such as John 3:16, but it will be a struggle to squeeze these words into the mouth of Jesus and sins are not even mentioned, only belief. 


I find it appalling that someone is said to have taken responsibility for something I am alleged to have done and had suffered what the scriptures describe as the most vicious, cruel and sadistic death ever dreamed up by humans, voluntarily!


I find also applauding that someone had taken it upon themselves to actually “sacrifice” themselves without my knowledge or consent! On my behalf.


Wouldn’t they - the believer- also be appalled and find it abhorrent if someone just took it upon themselves to take responsibility for their own sins, crimes and mistakes and sacrificed themselves via an horrific death?



And as an afterthought:


We notice too that god doesn’t address Cain's reply of responsibility but exiles him for his crime of murdering his brother. Cain complains at gen 4:14 that “it will happen that anyone who finds me will kill me.” but it is never explained who will actually kill Cain considering there were only four humans on the planet at the time of the murder and with them now being a man down leavening only three?


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#2 •••
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@Stephen

I dont care if people sacrifice themselves for me, but they shouldnt expect me to be grateful or even say thank you.

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#3 •••
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@Stephen

Bible verses about sacrifice including Jesus.

Hebrews 9:28

Mark 10:45

Ephesians 5:2

Romans 5:8

Psalms 40:6

Romans 12:1

proverbs 21:3

Luke 9:23

Hebrews 13:16

1 John 4:10.








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#4 •••
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@Debby

I dont know whats up with Christians focusing on human sacrifice.


Is it okay to sacrifice others for personal gain?


If Christians say yes, then Christians have no morality.


If Christians say no, then they reject Jesus's sacrifice.

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#5 •••
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@SatanLucy

In Christian Theology , Jesus is considered the only possible sacrifice for humanity’s sins because, as the sinless Son of God . He alone can pay the eternal debt. Unlike Old Testament animal sacrifices which were temporary and repeated, Jesus’s sacrifice was a single, perfect and eternally sufficient offering that established a new covenant.

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#6 •••
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So be it.


Hell awaits those that reject him.

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The US is a definitively secular nation, founded on complete separation of the State and religion. The Left Wing of US realise this but don't realise that pure freedom requires as low tax and free access to guns as possible. The Right Wing of US don't realise that secular pure freedom means the LGBTQ+ and abortion agendas both end up in line with US's liberty-first ethos.

It is left-wing to be pro-life. You are backing poor babies being born at the inconvenience of the already-born. Go figure.

#7 •••
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The Jews rejected Jesus and demanded he be crucified. They live in Israel.

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#8 •••
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@SatanLucy

No illegal aliens cared about good or pretti.

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#9 •••
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They were all against the ICE agents who killed the two. ICE should be abolished.

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#10 •••
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@Stephen
I Didn’t Ask Anyone To Die For Me.


Maybe not, but you do make people want to kill themselves.

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#11 •••
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Can any of us mere mortals defeat sin and death? Can we ensure by our own power that we will have eternal life? Only one being can do this, Jesus. If a person doesn't want to accept this free gift that is their own choice. Unfortunately the bible also says judgment awaits those who reject the salvation of Jesus.

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#12 •••
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The Catholic Church said the following about that church but I see it as fitting to Christianity in general


....

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, Christianity teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

.......

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#13 •••
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@linate

Jesus made it clear he was the only way to God.

John 14:6 I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

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#14 •••
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@Debby
Bible verses about sacrifice including Jesus.
Hebrews 9:28
Mark 10:45
Ephesians 5:2
Romans 5:8
Psalms 40:6
Romans 12:1
proverbs 21:3
Luke 9:23
Hebrews 13:16
1 John 4:10.

And your point it exactly, what?

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#15 •••
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There's a half-interest discussion to be had here. We can break consent down into categories:


Informed Consent: That to which you consent after having the pertinent information thereabout

Uninformed Consent: That to which you consent without having the pertinent information thereabout


Informed Nonconsent: That to which you do not consent after having the pertinent information thereabout

Uninformed Nonconsent: That to which you do not consent, without having the pertinent information thereabout


Note that, as used here, "uninformed" denotes being tricked or making a decision you otherwise wouldn't. Thus, in defining #4, we must consider that lack of information does not necessarily render nonconsent to be uninformed; rather, not knowing can be a perfectly valid reason to avoid agreeing to something, since you're not aware of all of the consequences.

But in any case #2 describes a situation where you would withhold consent if made aware of the consequences, and #4 describes a situation where you would give consent if made aware.


I would argue that all consent regarding the prospect of going to hell (if it exists), or nonconsent regarding the prospect of avoiding it, is uninformed. No one has returned from the grave and described what it felt like (people claiming otherwise are most likely either lying or deluded, or their brains played weird tricks on them during a near-death experience). No one knows how painful 10 minutes in hell is, to say nothing of an infinite amount of time spent in hell. You cannot say you'll be able to handle something that you have no way of understanding before you're dead.

If God has knowledge of counterfactuals, then he is aware that in the counterfactual of you experiencing it you would consent to being saved from it; therefore it doesn't violate consent to take steps to keep you from going there.

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#16 •••
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@Stephen

Those verses cover why Jesus was sacrificed to bring salvation to the world. Read it. It may answer your questions.

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#17 •••
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@bubbatheclown

No one has described Hell as a good experience. The reports about hell have all been consistent . One has to be extremely dumb to ignore these NDE( near death experiences).

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#18 •••
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@Debby
Those verses cover why Jesus was sacrificed to bring salvation to the world. Read it. It may answer your questions.


Nope.


And besides, Jesus was forgiving sins well before he was crucified. proving he didn't at all have to dies such a cruel torturous death. And John the Baptist was "washing away the sins of the world " before Jesus came on the scene. So once again again proving that Jesus didn't have to die for our sins.

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#19 •••
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@Stephen

Jesus could not forgive those that came after him. There had to be a once for all solution. His sacrifice is recognized as a complete eternal payment that covers all sins, past, present and future- allowing for ultimate reconciliation with God.

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#20 •••
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@Debby

Stephen wrote:And besides, Jesus was forgiving sins well before he was crucified. proving he didn't at all have to dies such a cruel torturous death. And John the Baptist was "washing away the sins of the world " before Jesus came on the scene. So once again again proving that Jesus didn't have to die for our sins.



"Debby" wrote:Jesus could not forgive those that came after him. There had to be a once for all solution. His sacrifice is recognized as a complete eternal payment that covers all sins, past, present and future- allowing for ultimate reconciliation with God.


Stephen wrote:once again you show that you know just about nothing about the life and tie of the Christ and even less about the bible.

Off you go now "Debby"

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#21 •••
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@Stephen

Jesus stated his death was necessary to fulfill Old Testament prophesies and promises regarding the Messiah’s role in redemption . His sacrifice often described as the “grain of wheat” that must die to bear fruit, was required to pay for sins, establish a new covenant and overcome the penalty of death.

Anyone following our exchanges can easily tell my biblical scholarship puts yours to shame.

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#22 •••
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Anyone following our exchanges can easily tell my biblical scholarship puts yours to shame.


I didn't know that one was awarded a "scholarship" for attending Sunday school for under five's.. Well done. Now buy a candle and thank the lord for the gift of that single celled brain that he gave you..



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#23 •••
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@Stephen

You admit even the single celled brain given as a gift from the Lord is worth more than a lifetime practicing non Christian like you.

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#24 •••
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@Debby

You admit even the single celled brain given as a gift from the Lord is worth more than a lifetime practicing non Christian like you.


And you don't understand sarcasm. And I admitted no such thing.

Off you go now,

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#25 •••
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@Stephen

Read your post above. You talk about God’s gift as well as your journey as a non practicing Christian in your profile.

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#26 •••
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@Debby
Read your post above. You talk about God’s gift as[.....]


that would be the sarcasm I mentioned


well as your journey as a non practicing Christian in your profile.

My profile mentions nothing of a "journey", only my opinion on Christians and the scriptures.

And here it is>>

I have nothing against Christians. But they should be prepared to defend their beliefs when the bible is put under scrutiny, without playing victim and throwing accusations around such as "bullying, victimisation and all the other shite they come out with when stuck on the backfoot after painting themselves into a corner. And "CONTEXT"!!! & "cherry picking are the most used excuses when well and truly painted in said corner.

I simply do not accept the bible (New Testament in particular) in the way it has come down to us nor how it has been preached to us over the millennia. I have no problem believing that a man called Jesus existed minus the so called "miracles".


https://www.debatecraft.com/users/Stephen



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#27 •••
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@Stephen

You even as a non practicing Christian should know you cannot cherry pick parts of the Bible that appeals to you. It is possible you have lost your faith and Satan has you under his control, forcing you to corrupt the teaching in the Bible.

you even refuse to accept the first commandment “you shall have no other gods before me”. This shows the degree of your regression and Satan’s control over you.

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#28 •••
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@Debby
You even as a non practicing Christian should know you cannot cherry pick parts of the Bible that appeals to you.


Such as?


It is possible you have lost your faith and Satan has you under his control, forcing you to corrupt the teaching in the Bible.

Nope> my arguments come from the bible itself. You just don't like it when someone like me highlights these contradictory, flawed, ambiguous half stories that the BIBLE throws out far too often.


you even refuse to accept the first commandment “you shall have no other gods before me”.


I accept that it is written in the bible, but the same GOD of bible speaks of other gods and recognises them to the point that he commands HIS OWN chosen tribe not to "revile the gods and kings of other nations". And that is something that you continuously refuse to accept, even when your god recognises there to be other gods.


This shows the degree of your regression and Satan’s control over you.

That's not good enough. and it it won't win you an argument.


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#29 •••
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@Stephen

There were other religions before Christianity that worshipped and created their own gods. But when God gave Moses the10 commandments he said Exodus 20:3 you shall have no other gods before me. Thus making Christianity a monotheistic religion replacing all other religions.

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#30 •••
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@Stephen
I didn't ask anyone to die for my crimes or sins or misdemeanours.


Fine. So what? There will come a time when you realize that you did ask. Better sooner than later, but you're really here now because you asked and accepted the fact.

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We tell God what to do and then blame Him for our errors.

- Dr. Pet Dragon of Sorbonne University