The Sign of Jonah ?

Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from you.”

 He answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.  For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Matthew 12:38-40

What are we to take from this? What does Jesus mean by the highlighted above?

In Matthew 12:38-40, 

Jesus rebukes religious leaders demanding a miracle by calling them an "evil and adulterous generation." He refuses to perform on command, stating the only sign they will receive is the "sign of Jonah"—a prophetic parallel to his upcoming three-day death and resurrection, foreshadowing his victory over the grave. 

Just as Jonah was in the fish's belly for three days and nights, Jesus would be in the "heart of the earth" (death/burial) for three days and nights before rising, serving as the ultimate verification of his messiahship.

Jesus rebukes religious leaders demanding a miracle by calling them an "evil and adulterous generation." He refuses to perform on command, stating the only sign they will receive is the "sign of Jonah"—a prophetic parallel to his upcoming three-day death and resurrection, foreshadowing his victory over the grave. 

Ok. So what was "the sign" of Jonah?

parallel to his upcoming three-day death.[..................Just as Jonah was in the fish's belly for three days and nights, Jesus would be in the "heart of the earth" (death/burial) for three days and nights before rising, serving as the ultimate verification of his messiahship.

So how does Jonah's time inside the fish in anyway "parallel" the dead Jesus laying in his private tomb for three days when Jonah wasn't dead inside the belly of the fish.

So how does Jonah's time inside the fish in anyway "parallel" the dead Jesus laying in his private tomb for three days when Jonah wasn't dead inside the belly of the fish.

The parallel between Jonah's time in the fish and Jesus' time in the tomb is 

a typological one, focusing on the miraculous rescue, the three-day duration, and the "descent into the pit," rather than an exact, one-for-one match of physical death. 

While some argue Jonah didn't die, others note that he went as far as a human could go without physically dying, experiencing a "descent to the roots of the mountains".

His prayer indicates he felt his life was over: "When my life was ebbing away, I remembered you, Lord" (Jonah 2:7).

The parallel is eschatological: Jonah returned from the "grave" to preach; Jesus returned from the actual grave to preach. 

In short: Jonah’s ordeal is a shadow or type that foreshadows the fulfillment in Jesus. Jonah survived the fish; Jesus conquered the grave. Jonah is a sign (a miraculous story), while Jesus is the reality (true resurrection).

Jonah’s Reality: Jonah was thrown into the sea (a place of certain death), swallowed by a fish, and survived for three days in an environment that should have killed him—a "living tomb".

Jesus’ Parallel: Jesus was in the grave (a place of actual death), yet God brought him out, which is the ultimate miraculous deliverance (resurrection).

The point: Jonah is a sign that God can save a person from the ultimate depths

So Jonah wasn't dead. And neither was Jesus.. I have always maintained that he survived the cross as have many theological authors have too.

It was nothing but a symbolic death. This is why the whole charade was performed in a private setting and where the whole ritual it was being viewed "from afar".

Death and resurrection. What’s your point with this? Or did you seriously not know what this was about?

What’s your point with this?

Well for a start tell me: What was the sign of Jonah?

Yes, it is well known that Jesus later came to Glastonbury (Cold Play headlining) under the pseudonym Eavis.

Yes, it is well known that Jesus later came to Glastonbury

You hit the post with that, Serge . The belief is that it was Joseph of Arimathea, another one Jesus' secret disciples .

https://research.reading.ac.uk/glastonburyabbeyarchaeology/digital/the-lady-chapel-c-1185-1539/joseph-of-arimathea/

In the verse you just read... what do you think a sign is?

Crucifixtion, itself, is an interesting study in physiology because the punishment, itself, is a virtual guarantee of death, whether one is tied or nailed to a cross, particularly a vertical beam with a perpendicular crossbeam on which a body's weight hanging on the device creates stress on the torso that slowly constricts the lungs making breathingdifficult throughout the ordeal until one suffers fatal suffocation. The process may require days to accomplish depending on whether feet are supported against which the person can alleviate the suffocation for a time, but to so so actually extends the agony. Also, personal fitness prior to the crucifixion has effect, not forgetting that before Christ was crucified, he was beaten and flogged [look up what materials were used in making Roman flogs], and was crowned with thorns, creating sigtnificant blood loss by the thorns and the nails and the flogging, reducing his endurance on the cross. No, he did not survive it. No one does unless they are taken down before death.

In the verse you just read... what do you think a sign is?

That's what I asked you.

If you don't know just say so.

No, he did not survive it [crucifixion]. No one does unless they are taken down before death.

What if he was just comatosed or deeply unconscious?

Love the avatar.

Love the avatar.

It has the towns name underneath the Lion. can't see it unless its opened up in a new tab. Old gaffer Jason left a few weeks ago and new one had them made up himself.

You still like a pint then?

Catch up tomorrow.

I do, Serge.

Look up the Greek katabasis. Everything about Jesus is based on Greek culture/ mythology.

Nope. He was dead. Why is that so hard?

Nope. He was dead. Why is that so hard?

You have no evidence that Jesus was dead when they took him down from the cross : " and he gave up the ghost" (Mark 15:37) could mean a few things such as he lost his faith because his "father" had "forsaken" him . TWICE!!!

So what was "the sign" of Jonah, Faux?

I think it means that just as Jonah was dead and came back to life, so too Jesus will die and come back to life.

I think it means that just as Jonah was dead and came back to life, so too Jesus will die and come back to life.

But he wasn't Dead" was he ? He was praying inside the fish. Which is no comparison to a real biologically dead person that can't pray.

Jonah 2 Then Jonah prayed to the Lord his God from the belly of the fish,  saying,

“I called out to the Lord, out of my distress".

Sounds very much alive to me. Unless "Dead" don't actually mean biologically "dead" in these circumsatnces?

But, once again, you are caught in the trap of poor translation from the Greek Septuagint; the 4th century translator's New Testament source to translate into Latin, first, and from that, in the 17th century, to English. That Greek is:

Ἰησοῦς ἀφεὶς φωνὴν μεγάλην ἐξέπνευσεν.

Jesus having

uttered a cry loud, breathed his last.

That is not to be misunderstood by a clever meme, such as "giving up the ghost." No, the Greek for a ghost, is phantom: ϕἀντασμα, which is not in the Septuagint.

 You are caught in the trap of poor translation from the Greek Septuagint; [.....................]That is not to be misunderstood by a clever meme, such as "giving up the ghost." No, the Greek for a ghost, is phantom: ϕἀντασμα, which is not in the Septuagint.

Mathew 27:50 has it: And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost. Mark 15:37.

And the Greek would be Phantasma. But you can wrangle with the "interpretation" excuse all day long. In ancient Greek the word phantom means to make seen, as far as I remember. Did anyone witness/ SEE the/A Phantom of Jesus depart from his supposed "dead " body? I think not as this event would surely have been recorded. And remember, these ancients believed they knew the the difference, between what they a ghost, a phantom and a spirit. and

Like I maintain, giving up the spirit / ghost could simply mean he gave up and had lost his faith in the "father". Or mores the case , Jesus had lost faith in the cause of the movement. And the more I read about it , the more it sounds like a deadly plot that had almost backfired.

I appreciate your effort to think through this, but you're stretching the point of your interpretation of ϕἀντασμα [phantasma] to equate "make seen" a ghost [spirit] of a person, or even further, to suggest it means Jesus was giving up the cause. First, as I said, ϕἀντασμα does not even appear as the operative word in either Mark or Matthew, and, therefore, it's root word, ϕἀνταζω [phantazo - to "make seen"] has nothing to do with "making seen" a ghost, or spirit, but making visible - or, more correctly, making it come to mind and not only "making seen - anything, even inanimate objects, so you are really pressing your interpretation well beyond the intent. N op-e, nothing backfired. Jesus, a perfect person, had to die to complete the effect of the demands of justice that the slate is able to be completely wiped clean for every single person ever born on Earth by their ability to repent - to do all they can do to compensate for their actions.

I started a thread on the crucifixion here>>> https://www.debatecraft.com/forum/c/religion/posts/rp/jesus-wasnt-dead-when-they-took-him-down-from-the-cross

I notice you gave it a wide birth.

So lets take a closer look.

Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth.

When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost”. John 19:28-30.NKJV

What are the medical uses of hyssop?

As a medicinal herb, hyssop has soothing,  expectorant and  cough suppressant properties. The plant also includes the chemicals Thujone and Phenol, which give it antiseptic properties. Its high concentrations of Thujone and chemicals that stimulate the central nervous system can provoke epileptic reactions when taken in high-enough doses. _.

We can only assume that this sponge soaked with the sleep (if not stupor) inducing narcotic drug Hyssop and vinegar was administered on a pole by one of those said to be standing at the foot of the cross. The soldiers it is said were too busy - “casting lots and gambling of the royal robes” “as it is written”- to be interested. No doubt it acted as a stimulant to Jesus’ nervous system and given the wounds from the nails the antiseptic would have begun to work immediately. Why had Jesus refused the first dose?

Could it be that administered too early it could have killed him, if not attended to right away or, he would have fallen asleep on the way to and before the execution? And were the words “I thirst” the coded message to give him the drug that would put him under?

And you still haven't told us what the sign of Jonah is?

The soldiers gave Jesus vinegar mixed with other narcotics to relieve him of his pain.