K-Pop Demon Hunters Mafia - DP2

still don't get this perspective. I'm consistently overcautious when it comes to lynches on DP1, but I didn't see anyone suggesting a NL DP1 and if someone had, I would have pushed back. 

There wasn't any serious discussion about who to lynch until the EOD.

he scenario we all believed was plausible was 1 scum, 1 TP. That would have brought us to 4-1-1. That may not be LYLO, but given that we necessarily wouldn't know the wincon of the TP, it very well could have functioned in the same way, meaning we could still have been one mislynch away from game over. Sure, there was a risk of a mislynch DP1, but I'd much rather have gotten a lynch off and shaved down POE than just sat on our hands and hoped for the best.

If that's the case you shouldn't have waited until EOD to pursue any major suspicions.

So you specifically asked him if players would receive that message and not whether they'd receive any message? That isn't what you said initially (you said they "would not receive a message") and it's an odd way to frame that question.

Verbatim I asked him "Do you tell people if they are roleblocked?" and he responded "I do not say 'you were roleblocked'" which indicated that response to me.

Again, though, the information I pointed to came out during the DP. Whether scum know anything about the show is largely irrelevant to whether they knew who Kohai was. It was pretty damn obvious that the character named Healer Han (Pie gave a full character list) was a) the only one with the name of a Chinese dynasty (Thoth said as much) b) the only character whose name would give away their role (Kohai gave that away). It doesn't take someone with extensive knowledge about the show to put the pieces together.

I didn't pick up on it, and I doubt vader did either is all I am saying. So the fact that the remaining pool knows something about the theme and also picked up on that and he also died indicates to me that its obvious to people who give a shit about the theme, which includes at least one mafia member.

Ya I assume Supa was the one that was roleblocked? But he was also silenced? Ofc passive roles wouldn’t know either

Hard to say, and I assume there are multiple passive roles.

As for Luna, I'm a little more uncertain. He could be one of the three members of Huntr/x, the pool of which has already been publicly reduced by Thoth's softclaim. There's a more than decent chance that he's Celine. Far lower chance that he's Mi-yeong Ryu for reasons I mentioned last DP (barely a character, only exists in Rumi's backstory). I'm less concerned at this point about the risk of having a member of Huntr/x claim (we're presumably at 4-1 and it could be a fake claim anyway), so I'm willing to pursue him since there are more options on the table and I'd like to nail him down.

VTL Luna

I don't really care, I'll character claim. I am Celine.

It's weird, I am both town reading and scum reading whiteflame equally. I can't really pin point it, but his behavior does feel different, but different isn't always a bad thing. He's way more aggressive this game, but that tends to happen when you are more confident with the theme. I could see him being aggressive as town or scum. It doesn't help that I am pretty sure scum is someone who has theme knowledge though. I don't see him pressuring players like pie early, and me as well semi early as scum though, its kind of a brave move when he as scum could look for easier mislynch targets. That said it could all be a ploy for towncred, maybe he knows or thinks he will be townread for his aggression? I am more looking at it for authenticity, so far it does look genuine so I am not eager to jump the gun on on a scum read for him. I wanna see this wierd evidence thoth has against pie however as well. Pie is not someone who I think has extensive theme knowledge but I think he is and has shown he is willing to do the relevant amount of theme research here as scum to put himself in the category of being capable of finding power roles in soft claims like Kohai. I still dont think vader was capable of that, which might look townie for him. The self silencing play I think is so talked about as a scum play that its almost suicide to commit. Its something I would expect more of players like mikal, not vader.

Anyways, my lynch pool is still between those three players, thoth, wf, and pie, I am hoping we can get some further developments to help my reads on these players.

I can't be sure, but there's a decent chance that I know who that character is and who you are. You might be able to guess the same about me.

I don't really care, I'll character claim. I am Celine.

Okay, so POE, Vader is probably the last girl, whether real or fake, which is interesting

Pie - Male

Thoth - Rumi/Zoey/Mira

Whiteflame - Rumi/Zoey/Mira

Lunatic - Celine - ???

Vader - Rumi/Zoey/Mira?

Anyways, my lynch pool is still between those three players, thoth, wf, and pie, I am hoping we can get some further developments to help my reads on these players.

Thoth is my top scum read right now. What bothers me with Whiteflame was his strong conviction that none of the 3 girls could be given as a fake claim as scum or not be scum themselves back in DP1.

Do you wanna say what you have against me?

Do you wanna say what you have against me?

In your Inheritance Cycle game on DebateArt, whiteflame had a custom role called Voodoo Lady that could choose a player and a 15-letter word, and, if the person said that word the next day, there was a 50% chance they would be told the Voodoo Lady was town. I breadcrumbed it by getting you to say insubordination last day phase and getting whiteflame to say electromagnetic today. This is not my role. I was just baiting reactions. It's possible that you missed it, but I think it's odd that you said nothing about how weird of a request it was and said (post #48) that you hadn't seen me breadcrumb anything. I figured you would recognize what I think is your own custom role and conclude that it was more likely that Magic gave me that role than that I found it in an old game.

I didn't pick up on it

(Post #61) I'm not sure I buy it. You're smarter than that.

In your Inheritance Cycle game on DebateArt, whiteflame had a custom role called Voodoo Lady that could choose a player and a 15-letter word, and, if the person said that word the next day, there was a 50% chance they would be told the Voodoo Lady was town. I breadcrumbed it by getting you to say insubordination last day phase and getting whiteflame to say electromagnetic today. This is not my role. I was just baiting reactions. It's possible that you missed it, but I think it's odd that you said nothing about how weird of a request it was and said (post #48) that you hadn't seen me breadcrumb anything. I figured you would recognize what I think is your own custom role and conclude that it was more likely that Magic gave me that role than that I found it in an old game.

I did think it was random, hence the “uh.” But idk how I’m supposed to connect insubordination to Voodoo Lady. That game was a while back too. It’s a stretch to scum read me because of that

I did think it was random, hence the “uh.” But idk how I’m supposed to connect insubordination to Voodoo Lady. That game was a while back too. It’s a stretch to scum read me because of that

I agree that it would be a ridiculous stretch to scumread someone just because of that. I'm saying it's a bit of heuristic evidence that can be added to your pile, and maybe to whiteflame's if I didn't townread him so strongly.

I figured the question was so weird and unprompted that you would wonder why I asked it, and then maybe make the connection.

Speaking of reaction-baiting, just saying it's a stretch to scumread you because of that comes off as a lot more polite than you tend to be when other people say things you think are stupid, especially when those things are directed at you. Like you know you got caught and you don't want to bring that much attention to it.

There wasn't any serious discussion about who to lynch until the EOD.

If that's the case you shouldn't have waited until EOD to pursue any major suspicions.

I’m not arguing that I played it well or even that I had a good scumread, I just don’t understand the mentality that it made the most sense to actively pursue a NL.

Verbatim I asked him "Do you tell people if they are roleblocked?" and he responded "I do not say 'you were roleblocked'" which indicated that response to me.

I’ll just drop this since it may have been a different phrasing of a similar question.

I didn't pick up on it, and I doubt vader did either is all I am saying. So the fact that the remaining pool knows something about the theme and also picked up on that and he also died indicates to me that its obvious to people who give a shit about the theme, which includes at least one mafia member.

Again, disagree that this required any kind of theme knowledge, just looking up the character list and seeing who matches those details. The people involved in uncovering the details of his role last DP had some insight into theme, but anyone who paid attention would have picked up on those details, and a two-person scum team definitely would. I suspect Rex did.

I don't really care, I'll character claim. I am Celine. 

Alright, makes sense.

I am more looking at it for authenticity, so far it does look genuine so I am not eager to jump the gun on on a scum read for him.

The analysis is fair. I have been more aggressive this game, comes from my knowledge of the theme combined with just enjoying being back and wanting to be more active. I might have acted in a similar way regardless of affiliation, so makes sense that you’d be torn.

What bothers me with Whiteflame was his strong conviction that none of the 3 girls could be given as a fake claim as scum or not be scum themselves back in DP1.

This just seems like a deliberate misread of what I was saying last DP. Having one of the girls be a fake claim was something I outright said was possible. My beef was with your argument that scum had one or two of them as a member, which was the impetus for our back and forth. We now have good reason to believe that scum don’t include one of the girls as their actual character, though they may still have one of them as a fake claim.

I’ll be back on in a bit to respond on this argument Thoth is making, just wanted to address a few points.

I’m not arguing that I played it well or even that I had a good scumread, I just don’t understand the mentality that it made the most sense to actively pursue a NL.

Agree to disagree IG.

Again, disagree that this required any kind of theme knowledge, just looking up the character list and seeing who matches those details. The people involved in uncovering the details of his role last DP had some insight into theme, but anyone who paid attention would have picked up on those details, and a two-person scum team definitely would. I suspect Rex did.

And people who are more likely to analyze the theme and focus on behavior are like... maybe pie only. It's safe to say you and Thoth just knew the theme to pick up on it.

I agree that it would be a ridiculous stretch to scumread someone just because of that. I'm saying it's a bit of heuristic evidence that can be added to your pile, and maybe to whiteflame's if I didn't townread him so strongly.

I figured the question was so weird and unprompted that you would wonder why I asked it, and then maybe make the connection.

You say random shit all the time lol

Speaking of reaction-baiting, just saying it's a stretch to scumread you because of that comes off as a lot more polite than you tend to be when other people say things you think are stupid, especially when those things are directed at you. Like you know you got caught and you don't want to bring that much attention to it.

Leave the art of politicking to me. Please and thank you

This just seems like a deliberate misread of what I was saying last DP. Having one of the girls be a fake claim was something I outright said was possible. My beef was with your argument that scum had one or two of them as a member, which was the impetus for our back and forth. We now have good reason to believe that scum don’t include one of the girls as their actual character, though they may still have one of them as a fake claim.

My issue is with the confidence you were saying it with. Anyways it’s a moot point at this stage. I want to lynch Thoth, are you with me or not? If not, what do you want to do next cause we’re just wasting our time right now

I'm not sure I buy it. You're smarter than that.

Your insults don't phase me douche.

I can't be sure, but there's a decent chance that I know who that character is and who you are. You might be able to guess the same about me.

To some degree I might be able to guess your character, but it’s still pretty close to a coin flip at this point.

And people who are more likely to analyze the theme and focus on behavior are like... maybe pie only. It's safe to say you and Thoth just knew the theme to pick up on it.

I think enough of the information zeroing in on who Kohai was had become public information that it was practically impossible to miss, and I’ve pointed to the specific information that came from Pie, Thoth and Kohai himself that helped with that. Their information required analysis, picking up on what they were putting down didn’t require much.

That being said, this argument is getting us nowhere. I just don’t see a reason to focus attention on the people who gave the clues when they were already public information.

Gun to your head, who do you want to lynch right now

My issue is with the confidence you were saying it with. Anyways it’s a moot point at this stage. I want to lynch Thoth, are you with me or not? If not, what do you want to do next cause we’re just wasting our time right now

I’m going to need some clear reasoning for why Thoth should be the lynch, then. I can understand pursuing his role and we can go from there, though I can’t say my default at this point is to believe that one of the Huntr/X claims is more likely than, say, your or Luna’s claims to be a fake claim. I’d say the likelihood is about even at this point.

Gun to your head, who do you want to lynch right now

I don’t have any full claim yet and we have enough time to get it, so I think we should be getting as much info as we can first.

That being said, if I had to pick blind of roles and with my suspicions of your, Thoth and Vader’s character claims, I’d probably lynch Luna. It’s not a strong difference, but there are a few things about the ways he’s tried to narrow POE that set me on edge.

Gun to your head, who do you want to lynch right now

Probably thoth for over-defensiveness, that comment he made about thinking he would be lynched for something relatively small. Then again its thoth. He tends to post every little thought that enters his head which I tend to read as TMI and scummy

https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/1r/k-pop-demon-hunters-mafia---dp1?page=4

Post 103

I'm calling it a night soon, but I want to get out a few final thoughts.

For one, I don't really buy this whole Voodoo Lady test from Thoth. It's a weird one, but like so much of his behavior this DP, it doesn't come off as scummy to me. Luna's right that he tends to be very stream of consciousness with his posts, and posts like this just seem like more getting into his own head. I guess it's directed towards sussing Pie, but it's not doing a whole lot of work on that front. He could be scum and still doing this, but it reads as null to me.

If there's a good behavioral reason for pursuing Thoth that really separates him from his town behavior in the past, I'm receptive. I'm not really seeing anything distinctive from Luna, with that linked post only telling me that he thought something that clearly isn't happening would get him lynched if a flip demonstrated it. I can see how it's defensive, but it's especially weird to call this out if you know your partner's going to flip next DP. As for Pie's reasoning, I'd like to see him spell it out, but he seems to be banking a lot on a member of Huntr/x being a fake claim and I'm still not clear where that's coming from. It's more plausible balance-wise with what we've learned from Rex's flip, but that's about it. He did softclaim more specifically than he had to early on, but that's about all I can think of that stands out.