Solo Leveling DP 5

I'm open to my mech reasoning being wrong, but I'm not open to opting out of mech reasoning altogether as long as mech is in the game. I'm open to alternate scenarios that could explain my results, flaws in my logic, things I may have overlooked -- but just saying "u don't know" doesn't help me and isn't even really trying to engage the data.

well "i dont know" is the honest to god truth.so is me telling u im town. and i get that this isnt enough for u and never will be. i know im the lynch. even if i magically survived today, i will always be a lynch because i have nothing going for me. not being in a guild, ill never be able to prove my role, and ill always be in the poe. literally my only point in arguing any of this is because u are using ur results to town confirm two people i think are very likely the scum team: awesome/rex. i just ask that after my lynch u take ur mech analysis being wrong into heavy consideration, and consider that there are things u dont know about the mechanics and that ppls have the incentive to lie.

What variables? Like help me out here girl lol. Weighing probabilities and likelihoods has always been a part of mafia. I can't just cut that out of the game.

this is by far not a normal game. twice the players, twice the roles, twice the manipulation potential for results.

I'll reiterate:

1. Mikal told me a Strengthener would take prio over a Redirector, Lawyer, Bus Driver, or result-randomizing ability.
2. Mikal told me that a Strengthener does not take prio over wincon mechanics, i.e. if awesome strengthens me and I investigate Pie again, I still get a guilty.
3. Mikal told me that for investigation powers like Cop, a result-randomizing ability would always return a false result.

So even when we're straight up given information on the mechanics of how certain roles work by Mikal and it's confirmed by other players, we should just set them aside?

i didnt say to set anything aside, i said there are other variables and unknown factor we cant know or account for, so ur applying what limited info u do have and making conclusions out of them, and because i dont know what other variables their are, that is being used against me as evidence that there are no other variables. u see my problem with this?

Also, to be clear again, we have one wrong result on Alyssa and an apparently correct result on Pie, we just didn't understand the context for that second result at the time.

semantics. pie is town, we know this, and the result was wrong. i dont even see what point ur trying to make here.

Focusing on one thing at a time. If you believe this result should go away, I want more than just "there has been manipulation before" as a reason.

i already told u im not giving it to u. i simply do not know. your trying to get blood from a stone. i know im being lynched, i literly just want my lynch to do something other than make you say "oh jee jilly gosh, the results messed with us again!" and get you to at least consider the idea that the people u are using to town confirm them with are just as likely to be scum as u thought i was when you mislynched me.

I'll reiterate:

Mikal told me a Strengthener would take prio over a Redirector, Lawyer, Bus Driver, or result-randomizing ability.

Mikal told me that a Strengthener does not take prio over wincon mechanics, i.e. if awesome strengthens me and I investigate Pie again, I still get a guilty.

Mikal told me that for investigation powers like Cop, a result-randomizing ability would always return a false result.

and im still town. but do what u gotta do girl.

its blatantly obvious one of u two is liking every single post anyone makes against me lol its a bit pathetic

No objective person here believes you. I’ll ask you behavioral questions though:

Why did you give an out to Thoth and Alyssa? Why did you hedge the motives for their actions?

And I’m not upvoting anything lol

well "i dont know" is the honest to god truth.so is me telling u im town. and i get that this isnt enough for u and never will be. i know im the lynch. even if i magically survived today, i will always be a lynch because i have nothing going for me. not being in a guild, ill never be able to prove my role, and ill always be in the poe. literally my only point in arguing any of this is because u are using ur results to town confirm two people i think are very likely the scum team: awesome/rex. i just ask that after my lynch u take ur mech analysis being wrong into heavy consideration, and consider that there are things u dont know about the mechanics and that ppls have the incentive to lie.

So you think it's awesome/Rex, one of them lawyered Rex, the other redirected Pie, and on NP3 they targeted either Pie or you to NK?

No objective person here believes you.

idrc lol

Why did you give an out to Thoth and Alyssa? Why did you hedge the motives for their actions?

i didnt give an out to anyone, i just scum read them for different reasons than the ones everyone else was bandwagoning for.

Wryly: Can you explain what it is about the awesome/Rex reasoning you don't agree with?

Kohai: It is just a very easy way for them to clear themselves.

What??

i didnt give an out to anyone, i just scum read them for different reasons than the ones everyone else was bandwagoning for.

No, you provided a town case for both of them. Thoth, you said you could see him brain farting I believe. Alyssa you said Popular is usually town

So you think it's awesome/Rex, one of them lawyered Rex, the other redirected Pie, and on NP3 they targeted either Pie or you to NK?

i already told u i wont be discussing mechanics. i know im town, so i know something is happening with results and actions we dont understand but are pretending to understand them for some reason. i know im being lynched. there is litrly no point in trying to come up with 10 thousand reasons why something did or didn't happen. u can ask urself the question above when i flip town and u have to re-evalute ur reads.

If banana flips town then who is scum for you?

Magic and you are my POE after Banana. Maybe WF and Mestari. Magic first, probably. If the jailkeep didn't block Banana carrying out the NK and instead Pie was the NK target, then Magic faking the poison as a gambit to pull the doc off Luna makes sense with a scum team that would be gunning for confirmed town like Pie.

If she flips town then who’s her partner once I flip town?

I think you meant scum. In that case, Magic. Earlier in the DP I would say Awesome but Pie being redirected points to Awesome not redirecting Wryly.

I feel like I got a buddy on trial for murder but her attorney is saying they won't be discussing forensics. 😭

No, you provided a town case for both of them.

its funny that being open minded is scummy, and death tunneling scum is tmi lol u guys are hilarious sometimes. damned if i do, damned if i dont.

Thoth, you said you could see him brain farting I believe.

sure, we are all human, and town make mistakes all the time. its not out of the realm of possibility. i still ended up voting for him.

Alyssa you said Popular is usually town

it usually is.

I feel like I got a buddy on trial for murder but her attorney is saying they won't be discussing forensics. 

ur acting like there is fingerprints and evidence all over the crime scene when there isnt. forensics have nothing to work with

i already told u i wont be discussing mechanics. i know im town, so i know something is happening with results and actions we dont understand but are pretending to understand them for some reason. i know im being lynched. there is litrly no point in trying to come up with 10 thousand reasons why something did or didn't happen. u can ask urself the question above when i flip town and u have to re-evalute ur reads.

If I were town in your position, I would start reassessing my towncore and poking around for scum within that group, instead of simply standing athwart POE-restricting mechanical elements and screaming 'stop'. I would not continue to doggedly scumread two players that are easier to mislynch than my towncore even after mechanics cleared them pretty thoroughly.

If I were town in your position, I would start reassessing my towncore and poking around for scum within that group, instead of simply standing athwart POE-restricting mechanical elements and screaming 'stop'. I would not continue to doggedly scumread two players that are easier to mislynch than my towncore even after mechanics cleared them pretty thoroughly.

my town/scum reads are based on behavior not mech tho so we are very different

its funny that being open minded is scummy, and death tunneling scum is tmi lol u guys are hilarious sometimes. damned if i do, damned if i dont.

I mean thanks for confessing you’re scum.

sure, we are all human, and town make mistakes all the time. its not out of the realm of possibility. i still ended up voting for him.

it usually is.

That doesn’t answer my question. Both people, who just happened to flip scum, you provided a reasoning for them to be town. Did you do that for any of the people that flipped town?

If you just want to discuss behavior, what about awesome and Rex's behavior strikes you as scummy?

rex who still could be the mole in wrylys guild, but i also thot he had very oppertunistic scum read of me last dp, but i get that may be biased or omgus

There’s no guarantee there’s even a mole after Mikal basically confirmed that investigations on members of the other guild would yield a guilty result.

Can you expand on what was opportunistic?

awesome who has been pretty inactive but has a role that i think sounds liek a common fake claim, plus he was bandwagoning to get me lynched last dp for really bad reasons and semantics

What were the bad reasons and semantics? Can you expand on these?

Can you please explain what you meant by "It is just a very easy way for them to clear themselves"? They had no idea I was going to investigate Rex.

I mean thanks for confessing you’re scum.

what are you talking about? my point is that whenver someone full pursues someone who is scum it gets dismissed as "tmi". or even the opposite, when i town read helz it got dismissed as tmi. but when im open to both sides its also scummy. ur bias towards me is on clear display. what did i do to make u dislike me so much lol

That doesn’t answer my question. Both people, who just happened to flip scum, you provided a reasoning for them to be town.

i dont see how its scummy that i am being open minded about ppl being town when ppl are also scum read for doing the opposite lol

Did you do that for any of the people that flipped town?

helz....

i didnt say to set anything aside, i said there are other variables and unknown factor we cant know or account for, so ur applying what limited info u do have and making conclusions out of them, and because i dont know what other variables their are, that is being used against me as evidence that there are no other variables. u see my problem with this?

We are accounting for a forced shift in targets, a.k.a. a Redirector. That's the big x-factor. There are always unknowns, but considering how this piece of evidence was acquired, it cuts out a substantial number of them. And at least what I'm taking away from it is that it's far less likely for REF or Awesome individually or together to be scum. If REF was lying about his role, Wryly would have flagged him. If Awesome was lying, then REF's role would have resulted in him being flagged by Wryly. Neither scenario happened and we know a Lawyer couldn't have caused this. It's not proof positive, but it's not like everyone here is just automatically granting it as given, either. Nonetheless, it is pretty strong evidence, and we've seen you be pretty dismissive of it.

semantics. pie is town, we know this, and the result was wrong. i dont even see what point ur trying to make here.

Banana, we went over this last DP extensively. Wryly's role will flag a target from the other Guild, regardless of whether they're scum or town. That's how it's supposed to work, Mikal informed Wryly about that last DP and several of us (myself included) were baffled by it. The result was right, but our understanding of what it meant was wrong. We now understand what those results mean and can apply that understanding correctly going forward.

i already told u im not giving it to u. i simply do not know. your trying to get blood from a stone. i know im being lynched, i literly just want my lynch to do something other than make you say "oh jee jilly gosh, the results messed with us again!" and get you to at least consider the idea that the people u are using to town confirm them with are just as likely to be scum as u thought i was when you mislynched me.

Fair enough, I'm just trying to focus your attention so that we can get something more out of this. There are things you're saying that don't make sense to me, so I'm trying to understand.

its blatantly obvious one of u two is liking every single post anyone makes against me lol its a bit pathetic

I wish I didn't pay so much attention to likes in mafia lol

Alas...

If you just want to discuss behavior, what about awesome and Rex's behavior strikes you as scummy?

i have before but sure, rex and awesome were both pursuing me for very poor reasons. awesome tried to make it sound like i scum slipped and just voted me and dis-appeared, plus has been pretty inactive. also ive seen the strengthener used as a fake claim before, i dont know if i have seen it as town yet. and rex just keeps going for the ez lynches. his role is really scummy, and he seems to be only getting a pass for being in ur guild. we have no reason to town confirm him, so add his voting behavior on top of his role claim its just baffling why he is being dismissed so much. i dont have anything to town read him on basically. either of them really. i have reason to town read others in the poe

Can you expand on what was opportunistic?

when u have someone like me who has 0 way to town confirm themselves, isn't in a guild, and has been the major topic of discussion for two day phases in a row, do u not think its weird that he isn't really trying to look elsewhere? my lynch is happening. why push it so hard and why not be open to finding other scum lol. it reeks of desperation, and scum are down two and need these mislynches, they have every reason to be desperate. i am dead, one way or another. i have no reason to fake my reads

What were the bad reasons and semantics? Can you expand on these?

https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/3q/solo-leveling---dayphase-4?page=22&comment_number=655

what are you talking about? my point is that whenver someone full pursues someone who is scum it gets dismissed as "tmi". or even the opposite, when i town read helz it got dismissed as tmi. but when im open to both sides its also scummy. ur bias towards me is on clear display. what did i do to make u dislike me so much lol

I never once used the TMI argument against you as far as I remember.

i dont see how its scummy that i am being open minded about ppl being town when ppl are also scum read for doing the opposite lol

Im pointing out that it’s odd that you defended both scum, however lightly and provided them with an out. But when it came to Shining, zilch.

helz....

Yes, but it’s different. You didn’t vote Helz, I’m pretty sure. And you were solid on him being town at the end of the DP.

If you voted him and scumread him at the end while also saying for the record, I townread him, I would agree that the situation is same. I don’t think that’s the case tho

We are accounting for a forced shift in targets, a.k.a. a Redirector. That's the big x-factor. There are always unknowns, but considering how this piece of evidence was acquired, it cuts out a substantial number of them. And at least what I'm taking away from it is that it's far less likely for REF or Awesome individually or together to be scum. If REF was lying about his role, Wryly would have flagged him. If Awesome was lying, then REF's role would have resulted in him being flagged by Wryly. Neither scenario happened and we know a Lawyer couldn't have caused this. It's not proof positive, but it's not like everyone here is just automatically granting it as given, either. Nonetheless, it is pretty strong evidence, and we've seen you be pretty dismissive of it.

its not just dismissive, i ouright refuse to acknowledge anything mechanical. i know im the lynch, so when im lynched and town the onus is on you to figure out why the mechanics are wrong. idc enough to convince u otherwise. the only truth i know and can repeat like a parrot is that im town, its on you if you dont believe me. or you can blame mikal for the mechanics. either way expecting me to have an answer to anything that happened night action wise is a bit silly isnt it? ill let you do that post flip.

Banana, we went over this last DP extensively. Wryly's role will flag a target from the other Guild, regardless of whether they're scum or town. That's how it's supposed to work, Mikal informed Wryly about that last DP and several of us (myself included) were baffled by it. The result was right, but our understanding of what it meant was wrong. We now understand what those results mean and can apply that understanding correctly going forward.

doesnt mean anything to me. my role card is town so u trying to convince me that any of these results should implicate me and thinking that should mean anything to me is just crazy

Fair enough, I'm just trying to focus your attention so that we can get something more out of this. There are things you're saying that don't make sense to me, so I'm trying to understand.

i feel like ive been pretty straigtforward

its not just dismissive, i ouright refuse to acknowledge anything mechanical. i know im the lynch, so when im lynched and town the onus is on you to figure out why the mechanics are wrong. idc enough to convince u otherwise. the only truth i know and can repeat like a parrot is that im town, its on you if you dont believe me. or you can blame mikal for the mechanics. either way expecting me to have an answer to anything that happened night action wise is a bit silly isnt it? ill let you do that post flip.

Alright, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, but if you want to own it fully, be my guest. I'm not expecting you to have an answer for exactly how this played out, but I also don't think it's better to just refuse to acknowledge it. Doesn't seem like we're going anywhere on this, though.

doesnt mean anything to me. my role card is town so u trying to convince me that any of these results should implicate me and thinking that should mean anything to me is just crazy

You keep shifting the subject back to you and I don't know why. Part of your reason for dismissing the results of Wryly's investigation as meaningful was to say that she got an incorrect result two times in a row. As I've pointed out, that's just not true. And no, I'm not trying to implicate you with these results. I'm focused on whether this gives significant support to REF and Awesome's claims. Been focused on POE since I started responding to you.

i feel like ive been pretty straigtforward

I feel like you've been more defensive in response to me than is warranted given I haven't been responding with reasons to sus you.