Apocalypse Mafia - DP2

Official Vote Count

magic (2/4) - Vader (2), Kohai

lunatic (1/4) - magic

Not voting: whiteflame, Thoth, lunatic, Pie,

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/24/2026 at 2:15 AM (post #78)

Originally Posted by Mag1cman on 9/23/2026 at 9:27 PM (post #68)

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/23/2026 at 11:05 PM (post #64)

Originally Posted by Mag1cman on 9/23/2026 at 8:22 PM (post #57)

Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/23/2026 at 9:22 PM (post #50)

Originally Posted by Mag1cman on 9/23/2026 at 2:00 PM (post #26)

Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/23/2026 at 10:07 AM (post #20)

Alright, one of you visited me last night. I know who you are and you know who you are. Confess or be lynched.

that would be me.

And pray tell what you did

I used a doctor ability on you.

Why Pie?

Because looking back at DP1, I don't remember you ever really having Pie as a strong townread. You moved away from suspecting him, sure, but I never got any indication from you that you thought he was a power role or something worth protecting..

lol still trying to cast doubt is crazy

First off, my early scumread of Pie is irrelevant; I had him as town in my final thoughts.

https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/87/apocalypse-mafia---dp1?page=8&comment_number=240

This post doesn't seem like it.

literally just pressuring him to be online. Not a scumread, even in the wording “starting to doubt a townread” still implies a townread 🤦‍♂️

Second, no one in this game, I felt, had a strong indicator of being a PR worth protecting. I townread Banana, Pie and Thoth. If Thoth had a PR worth protecting, he wouldn't have been so open about his role PM contradicting something in the OP. And Banana and Pie gave no subconscious hints in any of their behavior. Banana was more widely townread, sure, but I chose Pie because he has a history of being fearkilled when town.

So we can safely say that the mafia team does not fear Pie, which points to more experienced players.

I don't think we can safely say that at all. You chose to protect Pie because you thought he was likely to be fearkilled. The fact that he wasn't killed doesn't necessarily tell us that mafia doesn't fear him. They could have preferred another target, been looking for a PR, thought Pie was less likely to be the NK for some other reason, etc. And even if we accept that mafia didn't particularly fear Pie, I'm not seeing how that gets us to "more experienced players." That's another assumption on top of the first one. So I guess my question is: what specifically makes you think Pie surviving is evidence of an experienced mafia team rather than just evidence that they chose a different target?

I would imagine if the scum team does fear Pie, they just kill him. And then they hit their PR hunts with something else.

Thing is, I saw nothing in Banana that made it look like she was an investigative, just that she was town. With the kill itself is possible they saw something I didn’t, but it seems unlikely given what she posted.

I moreso buy the theory that between all their choices, they don’t fear Pie, they didn’t have a good lead on any investigatives, and so they picked Banana bc she was most widely townread and got lucky.

So Lunatic, Vader, Whiteflame, Kohai are all on me. I’m not going to keep waiting for your input forever. I might just full claim to get the DP moving, but I’d rather you just clear me. Where are you?

The fact that two people scumreading me have to be town is absurd.

I read you as a very specific role last DP. Can you give us all another hint of what your role might be? Just to make sure I’m right about you. I might need your help here.

Okay, I went back through the posts you linked in #89, and I think there is a fair correction here. I did leave out some context from your Pie progression. In particular, I didn't include the post where you explained the possible scum slip and why you no longer considered it one, and I didn't include your final thoughts where you said you mostly defended Pie. That said, I think you're overstating what my argument was. I wasn't arguing that you consistently scumread Pie, and I wasn't saying that the post you identified was a scumread. My point was that, looking at the progression as a whole, I didn't see enough from you in DP1 to make Pie an obvious protection target over Banana or Thoth.

You've now explained the choice more clearly: you townread all three, Thoth wasn't giving you a reason to think he was a PR, Banana was more widely townread, and you chose Pie because you thought he was someone who could be fearkilled. I can understand that reasoning even if I don't necessarily agree with it. Where I still disagree is the conclusion you're drawing from the NK. In #92, your theory is essentially that if mafia feared Pie, they would have killed him, and because they instead killed Banana, you think they probably didn't fear Pie, didn't have a good PR lead, and went for the most widely townread player. I don't think that's unreasonable as a possibility. I just don't think it's strong enough to draw the conclusion you're drawing from it.

Mafia not killing Pie doesn't establish that they didn't fear him. They could have had another reason for choosing Banana, they could have been looking for something specific in her posts, or they could simply have preferred that kill for reasons we don't know. And even granting the premise that they didn't fear Pie, I don't see why that particularly points toward an experienced mafia team. That's another layer of inference. So I think we're actually narrowing down the disagreement here.

I'll concede that I presented your Pie progression too selectively in #81. But I don't think that makes my underlying concern disappear. The question isn't "Did Magic ever townread Pie?" You clearly did.

The question is whether the progression and your reasoning around the Doctor target/NK are convincing enough that I should substantially lower my suspicion of you.

Right now, I don't think they are.

It’s a busy morning, I’ll be more active in the afternoon. I find it odd that Mag1c is this confident in Pie being town right now, since he has confirmed Mag1c’s night action, but still demanded that he claim his role despite Mag1c heavily implying that Pie knows at something about how his role works. I’ll go back through Luna’s case and see if he’s being overly selective later, but mechanically, I feel like I’m missing something that neither Mag1c nor Pie are being forthcoming about.

Originally Posted by Vader on 9/24/2026 at 9:50 AM (post #85)

I feel like my response to this is more personal strategy to the game of mafia itself rather than to the game and that’s a semantics debate I don’t want to get into. Even then, even if Pie is a fear kill, he was clearly not the top town player here and had some scum reads on him.

I agree, he wouldn’t be the obvious pick for protection.

You guys are fucking nitpicking retards.

Its easy to say in hindsight “oh yeah Banana was the most townread player and therefore the obvious kill”

but you don’t have a glimpse in the decision making without that hindsight.

Does mafia always have to choose the most widely townread player? No.

Can mafia see Pie as a threat? Yes.

Let’s say Banana is the most obvious kill, does mafia have to go for the most obvious kill? No.

Who the fuck cares of if I chose imperfectly according to your standards? I had logic behind it that is reasonable. That should be enough for you people. But it’s not. You are jumping on me because some of you are retarded this game, and some of you are scum. There‘s no way four townies are organically scumreading me. No fucking shot.

Ffs I literally pinged everyone last DP bc I thought the DP was going to end. I don’t do that as mafia. I don’t even listen track of the DP as mafia because I have direct access to the mod in scum chat plus a teammate that would be keeping track of the DP.

*I don’t even lose track of the DP

I should be fucking townlocked. This is bullshit.

Fuck this let me grab my full

https://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/escalated.gif

Outside of me responding to you, I don't see what specific person would have triggered that outburst. Those votes were on you from before the doctor claim. That said, Im going to bed, don't rage quit, you will be okay.

https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/87/apocalypse-mafia---dp1?page=3&comment_number=68

“I’d say too many people are afraid of mine. A pair of different ways it could go; I know of at least one couple in my town who actually spend time preparing for it.”

The sentence is just true. I’ve seen too many Christians talk about a fear of Judgement Day, there’s multiple theories among Christian scholars about how it would go down, and every family in my church is preparing for it; that comes with walking the path of faith.

Furthermore, the post was worded to leave a breadcrumb:

too = 2

pair = 2

one = 1

couple = 2

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2022%3A12&version=ESV

Revelation 22:12

“Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompenses with me, to repay each one for what he has done.”

My character is “God exists and we face judgment”

You might ask, how does that lead to Doctor? The answer is that I got to choose which god exists NP0. My options were Athena, Ra, and Jesus.

I thought this game had a lot more moving parts and bs roles than it actually did, so I chose Jesus hoping to get something really OP like a res ability, and got Doctor, because Jesus healed the sick, the crippled, and the demonically possessed.

From my perspective at least, your role is not confirmed, Pie demanded your claim, and yet he’s the one you claim should be able to effectively confirm you. Maybe this is an issue on his end and something he missed. I’m ready and willing to have that proven to me anytime.

Behaviorally, I’ve been mixed on your responses so far, but I wouldn’t say I’m actively scumreading you atm. I get that you have others who are, but maybe don’t just assume I’m scumreading you because I’ve got you in POE, have been asking questions and have been confused by some of your choices.

But no, I’m not going to townlock you over what I’ve seen so far. You’re leaving that largely to Pie and he hasn’t done much to establish that you are, honestly.

Originally Posted by Mag1cman on 9/24/2026 at 12:30 PM (post #105)

https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/87/apocalypse-mafia---dp1?page=3&comment_number=68

“I’d say too many people are afraid of mine. A pair of different ways it could go; I know of at least one couple in my town who actually spend time preparing for it.”

The sentence is just true. I’ve seen too many Christians talk about a fear of Judgement Day, there’s multiple theories among Christian scholars about how it would go down, and every family in my church is preparing for it; that comes with walking the path of faith.

Furthermore, the post was worded to leave a breadcrumb:

too = 2

pair = 2

one = 1

couple = 2

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2022%3A12&version=ESV

Revelation 22:12

“Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompenses with me, to repay each one for what he has done.”

My character is “God exists and we face judgment”

You might ask, how does that lead to Doctor? The answer is that I got to choose which god exists NP0. My options were Athena, Ra, and Jesus.

I thought this game had a lot more moving parts and bs roles than it actually did, so I chose Jesus hoping to get something really OP like a res ability, and got Doctor, because Jesus healed the sick, the crippled, and the demonically possessed.

Alright then, that at least gives me more to work with. Wonder what Athena and Ra would’ve given you, though both seem like somewhat strange choices for Judgement Day. Would’ve expected Ragnarok (so a Norse god) would be in the mix.

I’ll think on this.

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/24/2026 at 12:37 PM (post #107)

Originally Posted by Mag1cman on 9/24/2026 at 12:30 PM (post #105)

https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/87/apocalypse-mafia---dp1?page=3&comment_number=68

“I’d say too many people are afraid of mine. A pair of different ways it could go; I know of at least one couple in my town who actually spend time preparing for it.”

The sentence is just true. I’ve seen too many Christians talk about a fear of Judgement Day, there’s multiple theories among Christian scholars about how it would go down, and every family in my church is preparing for it; that comes with walking the path of faith.

Furthermore, the post was worded to leave a breadcrumb:

too = 2

pair = 2

one = 1

couple = 2

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2022%3A12&version=ESV

Revelation 22:12

“Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompenses with me, to repay each one for what he has done.”

My character is “God exists and we face judgment”

You might ask, how does that lead to Doctor? The answer is that I got to choose which god exists NP0. My options were Athena, Ra, and Jesus.

I thought this game had a lot more moving parts and bs roles than it actually did, so I chose Jesus hoping to get something really OP like a res ability, and got Doctor, because Jesus healed the sick, the crippled, and the demonically possessed.

Alright then, that at least gives me more to work with. Wonder what Athena and Ra would’ve given you, though both seem like somewhat strange choices for Judgement Day. Would’ve expected Ragnarok (so a Norse god) would be in the mix.

I’ll think on this.

Bullish is a staunch athiest who I highly doubt could make a coherent argument against God’s existence… or anything beyond the most surface level bad arguments. I highly doubt he has any substantial knowledge in theology or mythology.

Unvote

It’s a detailed claim and pretty clear you were laying the groundwork for it for a while. Can’t say I read into the 22:12 line, but I did think that post read as odd and I can see it now that you point it out.

I am a bit confounded by Athena and Ra’s inclusion as possible choices. Ra isn’t the Egyptian god associated with judgement, that’s Osiris, and even if we’re considering all the gods in that pantheon involved in judgement, Anubis, Ma’at, Thoth and Ammit are all further up that list. Athena makes more sense than I originally thought because she has a history of making judgements like in the Trial of Orestes, but it seems like a big pivot from either Judgement Day or judgement after death, which has its own arbiters in Greek mythology.

It’s just a pretty eclectic slate, even for something as broad as “God exists and we face judgment.” I don’t want to hyperfixate on this, though, so I’m leaving it at that for now.

Could you explain why you said that Pie could confirm you? Is there something else to your role or are you just straight up the Doctor?

Bullish is a staunch athiest who I highly doubt could make a coherent argument against God’s existence… or anything beyond the most surface level bad arguments. I highly doubt he has any substantial knowledge in theology or mythology.

Alright then.

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/24/2026 at 12:56 PM (post #110)

It’s a detailed claim and pretty clear you were laying the groundwork for it for a while. Can’t say I read into the 22:12 line, but I did think that post read as odd and I can see it now that you point it out.

I am a bit confounded by Athena and Ra’s inclusion as possible choices. Ra isn’t the Egyptian god associated with judgement, that’s Osiris, and even if we’re considering all the gods in that pantheon involved in judgement, Anubis, Ma’at, Thoth and Ammit are all further up that list. Athena makes more sense than I originally thought because she has a history of making judgements like in the Trial of Orestes, but it seems like a big pivot from either Judgement Day or judgement after death, which has its own arbiters in Greek mythology.

And that’s how you know there was no research done with the aim of making a fake claim. I would’ve done the research if I were making this up.

I imagine a combination of Bullish wanting specific roles and stretching, plus not knowing enough to find a suitable character for those roles that judges.

It’s just a pretty eclectic slate, even for something as broad as “God exists and we face judgment.” I don’t want to hyperfixate on this, though, so I’m leaving it at that for now.

Could you explain why you said that Pie could confirm you? Is there something else to your role or are you just straight up the Doctor?

Nope, nothing else. I had faith Pie would just believe me and declare me town when I give him enough info.

This isn’t necessarily an indication that I believe Magic’s claim and what he did. I still think that’s its entire possible that this was a fake claim given OR a twist on a scum role. But I think balance wise it makes more sense than maybe just a doctor. I think the soft was good and aligns but the justification of even more breadcrumbing to a bible verse is sort of a stretch but it does makes sense to the quote. If he knew the fake claim he could’ve prepared a statement to soft on this.

I still think behaviorally I have questions, but I think this claim does makes sense and it is very elaborate. How descriptive of fake claims do we think Bullish got? I am not really sure to be quite honest. This could go either way. My justification Vader (1) wasn’t long. Didn’t really think Banana’s was all that long. I also think this opens the door to backing out of a claim based on the choice.

Either way, I want to hear what Pie has to say.

Unbelievable 🤦‍♂️

Ehh looking back his alien invasion piece doesn’t really include that much thought about aliens besides there so technologically advanced without evidence. A non science theoretical seems to be a lot of his own thoughts and I could see him choosing those 3 cuz why not

Vader can only be scum if the mafia knew of a cop btw.

Godfather/lawyer/framer has to be in the scum team for Vader to even possibly be scum.

Common scum roles for sure but it’s worth noting.

Where are you bruh

I am going to make the decision to focus off Magic unless Pie makes some shocking discovery that makes me reconsider. We should pivot to get some claims from maybe one person. Then I want to look to Kohai. Someone who is usually very vocal in reads seem to be taking a back seat and letting the DP play out and only chiming in when they have pressure under them OR to cast a mislynch vote. I think we need to look at that more since it feels out of character

They’ve also claimed to be “tired” of the bullshit happening and getting lynched. I bet that scum partner tried to get them to interact less in this DP so they don’t get themselves mislynched on DP1 so that we could shift focus. Plus a tree stump is such a nothing claim

Originally Posted by Vader on 9/24/2026 at 1:09 PM (post #118)

I am going to make the decision to focus off Magic unless Pie makes some shocking discovery that makes me reconsider. We should pivot to get some claims from maybe one person. Then I want to look to Kohai. Someone who is usually very vocal in reads seem to be taking a back seat and letting the DP play out and only chiming in when they have pressure under them OR to cast a mislynch vote. I think we need to look at that more since it feels out of character

Finally thank you. If you help me get Lunatic’s claim I’ll help you get Kohai’s.