Apocalypse Mafia - DP2

Why would AI takeover know they were visited

I 95% sure that Thoth is scum here for a few reasons:

1) Character: Having two sun related apocalypses doesn’t make much sense, when there’s a plethora of apocalypses out there

2) Role: Vanilla. This also doesn’t make much sense. I swear Thoth has been in rolemad games before where there are multiple Vanillas. I’ll have to dig it up. I don’t buy it at all

3) Role: I don’t think anyone was pressuring him for a full claim. Him giving away his role like that especially after previous game is rather odd. Almost like he was eager to give it.

4) He never answered my question about why he was voting me at the beginning, even after I asked him multiple times. I don’t think he’s had an original thought. Practically buddied and bandwagoned yesterday if i remember correctly.

VTL Thoth

unvote

Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/24/2026 at 10:45 PM (post #181)

Why would AI takeover know they were visited

It has to do with my role.

Dead:

Banana- Alien Invasion- Even Night Follower

Vader1- Solar Flare- 2x Roleblocker

Claims:

Thoth- Sun turning into red giant- Vanilla 

Whiteflame- Ice-IX from Cat’s Cradle

Vader 2- Vacuum Decay- Miller

Lunatic- Nuclear War 

Mag1cMan- God exists and we face judgment- Doctor (chose Jesus as his god) (protected pie)

Kohai- Zombie Apocalypse- Tree Stump

Pie- AI Takeover- (knows someone visited him)

Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/24/2026 at 10:01 PM (post #163)

I definitely don’t like Thoth’s character. Two sun apocalypses, especially with so many out there?

Knowing Bullish, this might not be an issue.

Originally Posted by Mag1cman on 9/24/2026 at 10:51 PM (post #186)

Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/24/2026 at 10:01 PM (post #163)

I definitely don’t like Thoth’s character. Two sun apocalypses, especially with so many out there?

Knowing Bullish, this might not be an issue.

I disagree. You can make anything Vanilla. Did he post a justification yet? Lemme see

Pie and Lunatic are the only two man-made apocalypses. I still townread Pie, but it's noteworthy to me.

But with a fake claim provided, I kind of doubt scum wouldn't use it... Unless the fake claim were role only. But the possible theme split here feels too obvious for mafia to fall into such a pitfall.

Okay, he did post a justification, but just cause you don’t/can’t prep for it doesn’t mean it’s Vanilla.

If your role tells you that someone visited you, but not who or what they did, why was your immediate reaction to demand the visitor confess rather than simply reveal that you had been visited?

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/24/2026 at 10:55 PM (post #190)

If your role tells you that someone visited you, but not who or what they did, why was your immediate reaction to demand the visitor confess rather than simply reveal that you had been visited?

I already said that it was a reaction test to potentially catch scum.

Originally Posted by Mag1cman on 9/24/2026 at 10:55 PM (post #188)

Pie and Lunatic are the only two man-made apocalypses. I still townread Pie, but it's noteworthy to me.

But with a fake claim provided, I kind of doubt scum wouldn't use it... Unless the fake claim were role only. But the possible theme split here feels too obvious for mafia to fall into such a pitfall.

It’s obviously not the theme. It’s never that easy + I would see that in an instant and not claim that, especially considering I was the last one to claim

Whiteflame's is the only one found in fiction. Yes Bullish is an atheist but even he should be able to view major religious texts differently than a sci-fi novel.

Ice nine is also man-made, albeit fictional.

Quick thoughts on the current claims since we've gotten a lot more information now.

Mag1c — Doctor / God-Judgment Day

The Doctor claim itself makes sense enough, especially given the interaction with Pie. Pie's reaction makes me less interested in arguing that Magic fabricated the visit. I'm still not completely sold on some of Magic's reasoning around the NP1 kill, but I think that's a separate issue from whether the claim itself is legitimate.

Thoth — Vanilla / Sun- Red Giant

This one is weird to me. The character/apocalypse makes sense with what Thoth was saying in DP1, and I buy that his earlier breadcrumbs were actually pointing toward the PM contradiction he eventually explained.

The Vanilla part is what I'm less comfortable with. I don't think "role madness means scum wouldn't fake Vanilla" is enough to clear him, and I'm not sure I buy the assumption that every role in this setup has to be especially complicated. Still, the fact that his earlier breadcrumbs actually line up with the claim is meaningful.

Kohai — Tree Stump / Zombie Apocalypse

I still don't really understand this one. The Tree Stump claim itself isn't new, so I'm less interested in the fact that he's sticking with it and more interested in whether his explanation actually fits the character/role setup. He did warn us in advance multiple times that the justification made no sense, but a justification not making sense is kind of different from having virtually no link or justification, which is basically what is happening here.

More importantly, his claim doesn't really answer my biggest issue with Kohai, which is his overall contribution and solving. I want to see an actual solve from him rather than just more justification for why his claim makes sense.

Whiteflame — Ice-IX / Cat's Cradle

The character claim makes sense with the apocalypse theme, and I don't have a huge issue with it mechanically. I also think his earlier DP1 breadcrumbs are at least consistent with what he's claiming now.

I'm still not sure where I stand on his actual alignment, though. Claim-wise, nothing here is screaming fake to me. I don't have any glaring red flags with him behaviorally yet either.

Pie — AI Takeover

This is the one I'm most interested in now that we've gotten the apocalypse claim.

I understand why Pie doesn't want to immediately give the role, especially since he claims his role is what told him somebody visited him. But that also means the role itself is important to evaluating the Magic interaction.

So I want to know what the actual mechanical information is that his role gave him, and exactly what he knew when he made the "confess or be lynched" post.

Vader — Miller / False Vacuum Decay

I don't have much to add beyond what I've already said. Miller is inherently difficult to verify from the claim alone, so I'm mostly judging the slot based on behavior and progression rather than the claim.

Overall, I think the claims have given us a lot more information, but I don't think "who has the weirdest claim" is going to solve this by itself. I'd rather look at how the claims interact with people's actual behavior and the information we've gotten from NP1.

Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/24/2026 at 9:58 PM (post #191)

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/24/2026 at 10:55 PM (post #190)

If your role tells you that someone visited you, but not who or what they did, why was your immediate reaction to demand the visitor confess rather than simply reveal that you had been visited?

I already said that it was a reaction test to potentially catch scum.

I remember you saying it was a reaction test; I was asking more about what you were trying to get out of the reaction test. If you only knew that someone had visited you, what specifically were you looking for in people's reactions that would distinguish a scum visitor from a town visitor? A scum visitor could just stay quiet, but a town visitor could also choose not to immediately claim. And if someone did confess, that doesn't necessarily make them scum either.

I'm more interested in what your actual criteria were for the test, especially since you said Magic passed it. What did Magic's response do that made you think he passed the test rather than simply being a plausible Doctor explanation?

I don't think the reaction test itself is inherently bad. I just don't want "it was a reaction test" to end the discussion when the useful information is what the test was designed to detect and what Magic did that satisfied it.

Are you vanilla? Yes or no.

Nope.

Originally Posted by Mag1cman on 9/25/2026 at 12:13 AM (post #196)

Are you vanilla? Yes or no.

No.

Observing previous Bullish games

https://web.archive.org/web/20251015005929/https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/12683-jet-fighters-mafia-endgame - 1 Vanilla

https://web.archive.org/web/20250716065929/https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5494-crimes-mafia-endgame - 1 Vanilla

https://web.archive.org/web/20250714201327/https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/4890-technology-mafia-endgame - 2 Vanillas

With Thoth being the only vanilla, the pattern fits. Behaviorally, I find it crazy that mafia would want to fake-claim vanilla, and soft something so attention-drawing as their first post in the whole game.

Originally Posted by Mag1cman on 9/24/2026 at 10:29 PM (post #199)

Observing previous Bullish games

https://web.archive.org/web/20251015005929/https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/12683-jet-fighters-mafia-endgame - 1 Vanilla

https://web.archive.org/web/20250716065929/https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5494-crimes-mafia-endgame - 1 Vanilla

https://web.archive.org/web/20250714201327/https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/4890-technology-mafia-endgame - 2 Vanillas

Good info to know. Given the games are older, I will take that with a grain of salt. But its not hard to believe a single vanilla would exist in any games template tbh.

Pie — AI Takeover 

This is the one I'm most interested in now that we've gotten the apocalypse claim.

I understand why Pie doesn't want to immediately give the role, especially since he claims his role is what told him somebody visited him. But that also means the role itself is important to evaluating the Magic interaction.

So I want to know what the actual mechanical information is that his role gave him, and exactly what he knew when he made the "confess or be lynched" post.

Ive answered this like five times. My role basically told me that someone visited me. I did not know who it was or what they did. I decided to run the reaction test to potentially catch scum in a lie or identify a townie.

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/24/2026 at 11:12 PM (post #195)

Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/24/2026 at 9:58 PM (post #191)

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/24/2026 at 10:55 PM (post #190)

If your role tells you that someone visited you, but not who or what they did, why was your immediate reaction to demand the visitor confess rather than simply reveal that you had been visited?

I already said that it was a reaction test to potentially catch scum.

I remember you saying it was a reaction test; I was asking more about what you were trying to get out of the reaction test. If you only knew that someone had visited you, what specifically were you looking for in people's reactions that would distinguish a scum visitor from a town visitor? A scum visitor could just stay quiet, but a town visitor could also choose not to immediately claim. And if someone did confess, that doesn't necessarily make them scum either.

I'm more interested in what your actual criteria were for the test, especially since you said Magic passed it. What did Magic's response do that made you think he passed the test rather than simply being a plausible Doctor explanation?

I don't think the reaction test itself is inherently bad. I just don't want "it was a reaction test" to end the discussion when the useful information is what the test was designed to detect and what Magic did that satisfied it.

Test was designed to detect hesitancy or any sort of ask for more details, though everyone would react differently. Scum would usually ask for more details to decide how they approach me if they did visit me. Mag1c’s reaction wasn’t apprehensive. He even went so far as to say that he’d be willing to full claim even if I told him to, which he also did.

Originally Posted by Mag1cman on 9/24/2026 at 11:32 PM (post #200)

With Thoth being the only vanilla, the pattern fits. Behaviorally, I find it crazy that mafia would want to fake-claim vanilla, and soft something so attention-drawing as their first post in the whole game.

Problem is that Vanilla could be the fake role claim given by Bullish in this exact scenario. Theres also the fact that I’m like 99% sure that Thoth knows rolemadness doesn’t mean 0 vanillas exist every time.

But also, the justification. You can’t do anything about vaccum decay either, but that’s a Miller. There’s an inconsistency

Official Vote Count

lunatic (2/4) - Vader (2), magic,

Thoth (1/4) - Pie,

Not voting: Thoth, Kohai, whiteflame, lunatic

DP2 ends in ~22 hours. DP2 ends on 09/25, 23:30 EDT.

Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/24/2026 at 11:07 PM (post #203)

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/24/2026 at 11:12 PM (post #195)

Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/24/2026 at 9:58 PM (post #191)

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/24/2026 at 10:55 PM (post #190)

If your role tells you that someone visited you, but not who or what they did, why was your immediate reaction to demand the visitor confess rather than simply reveal that you had been visited?

I already said that it was a reaction test to potentially catch scum.

I remember you saying it was a reaction test; I was asking more about what you were trying to get out of the reaction test. If you only knew that someone had visited you, what specifically were you looking for in people's reactions that would distinguish a scum visitor from a town visitor? A scum visitor could just stay quiet, but a town visitor could also choose not to immediately claim. And if someone did confess, that doesn't necessarily make them scum either.

I'm more interested in what your actual criteria were for the test, especially since you said Magic passed it. What did Magic's response do that made you think he passed the test rather than simply being a plausible Doctor explanation?

I don't think the reaction test itself is inherently bad. I just don't want "it was a reaction test" to end the discussion when the useful information is what the test was designed to detect and what Magic did that satisfied it.

Test was designed to detect hesitancy or any sort of ask for more details, though everyone would react differently. Scum would usually ask for more details to decide how they approach me if they did visit me. Mag1c’s reaction wasn’t apprehensive. He even went so far as to say that he’d be willing to full claim even if I told him to, which he also did.

Okay, that makes more sense. I understand what you were testing for now.

I think my issue is that I'm not sure the reactions you're looking for are particularly alignment indicative.

If someone gets told "I know you visited me, confess," I would expect a town player who actually did visit to potentially ask for more information before claiming, especially if they don't know what the other person knows. Likewise, a scum player could just immediately claim a plausible role and avoid showing hesitation.

So I don't think asking for details necessarily points toward scum, and I don't think being willing to full claim necessarily points toward town.

With Magic specifically, I can see why his willingness to explain himself made him pass your test. But I'm not sure what about his response was something that scum Magic would have been unlikely to do.

Current reads:

Kohai — Scum lean

Still my biggest concern. The Tree Stump claim itself isn't particularly useful to me since we've known about it for a while, and I still don't think his overall solving has been strong enough.

What I want from Kohai at this point is an actual solve. Who are his top two scumreads, who is his strongest townread, and what does he think the rest of us are getting wrong? I care more about that than another explanation of the claim.

Pie — Scum lean

I've moved Pie down somewhat.

I understand his explanation for the visitor situation better now, and I think the reaction test itself was reasonable enough as a concept. My issue is that I'm not convinced the results of the test are as alignment-indicative as Pie seems to think they are.

Magic being willing to explain himself and offer a full claim doesn't necessarily distinguish town from scum, and I'm not convinced that Magic "passing" the test should carry as much weight as Pie is giving it.

More broadly, I still want to understand Pie's overall solving and some of his interactions from earlier in the phase. I don't think the visitor situation is enough by itself to clear him.

Thoth — Light scum lean

The claim itself is actually one of the things I find more believable about Thoth. The Sun → Red Giant explanation fits several of his earlier breadcrumbs, particularly the stuff about his PM contradicting the OP.

But that doesn't automatically make the slot town. Some of the questions Pie has raised about Thoth's behavior are worth looking into, and I don't think his Vanilla claim should get him out of scrutiny.

So I'm not at the point where I'd make Thoth one of my primary suspects, but I'm leaning more suspicious than I was previously.

Mag1c — Null

I've backed off this one.

I still don't love some of Magic's reasoning, particularly his interpretation of the NP1 kill, but the Doctor claim is harder for me to dismiss now. Pie independently knew someone visited him, Magic claimed to have been the visitor, and Pie has explained why Magic's reaction passed his test.

I don't think that completely clears Magic, but I also don't think I have enough to continue treating him as one of my stronger scumreads. I'm putting him in null for now and watching what he does from here.

Vader — Null / slight town

The Miller claim isn't something I'm giving automatic town credit for, but I do think his independent read on Kohai/Magic is worth considering.

I'm still trying to separate what Vader himself has done from the history of the slot before the replacement, so I'm not comfortable making a strong read here yet. A bit more activity would be helpful. I don't think miller is a claim vader would immediately make after just being mislynched in dp1. A lot of my read on him is just my gut telling me the mod wouldn't make him scum right after he got mislynched, and that it would be incredibly unlucky for that to be the case. But if he is scum then I think miller is probably scums safe claim.

Whiteflame — Town lean

Probably one of my stronger town leans at the moment.

His willingness to reconsider Kohai after rereading the earlier phase is something I like, and I don't see a major issue with his character claim. More importantly, I think his reads have generally felt like he's actually trying to work through the game rather than just defend an existing position.

So at the moment, my rough grouping is:

Scum lean: Kohai, Pie

Light scum lean: Thoth

Null: Magic, Vader

Town lean: Whiteflame

I'm intentionally leaving Magic in the middle rather than forcing him into either alignment. I had a pretty strong case against him earlier, but I think the newer information warrants reassessing that rather than pretending nothing changed.

If Pie is scum, I see a few possible partner scenarios:

Pie + Kohai: Pie's sustained pressure on Kohai is distancing. They can fight publicly while keeping each other in the POE. Kohai's resistance makes the conflict look genuine.

Pie + Thoth: Thoth's early vote on Pie could be distancing, while Pie largely leaves Thoth alone afterward. They stay separated without needing to defend each other.

Pie + Magic: The Doctor/visit situation could be coordinated. Magic gets a strong claim through Pie, while Pie gets confirmation from Magic's claim and can use the interaction to build credibility.

Pie + Vader: The weaker theory. Vader's Miller claim and his independent suspicion of Kohai don't give me much obvious partner equity with Pie.

Right now, Kohai is the scenario I'd investigate most, but I don't think any of these are conclusive.

Lunatic can you fucking stop fucking using fucking ChatGPT to write your fucking analysis

Originally Posted by Thoth on 9/25/2026 at 2:00 AM (post #209)

Lunatic can you fucking stop fucking using fucking ChatGPT to write your fucking analysis

Can you actually post and play? Your inactivity will be our downfall man. Who are your top scum reads and why?