Epstein's Island Mafia DP2

Perhaps a mass character claim should be done to help narrow the theme split?

As far as suspecting me I mean. Their double vote with BM claim they could not have seen me go anywhere because I did not go anywhere.

Originally Posted by Helz on 10/9/2026 at 8:56 PM (post #83)

PWe clearly have very different perspectives on this.

I suppose so. Given either flavor or role reveals could help solve right now in a huge way and the critical town role has already flipped I just do not see it.

If nothing else you and the handful of other no-claims should have greater thoughts about the potential split. We know its absolutely AI and figuring out that split is a major factor with later claimers being more sus in the situation.

I’m not convinced my claim will be the kind of massive help you believe it will be, and if you’re looking for me to give thoughts on a split, I did already cover that to some degree last DP. The problem is that, as you already said, we know scum have asked about two characters. We shouldn’t expect that they’ve straight claimed their characters, nor that their fake claims will put them due to being on the wrong side of the split. Feels a little strange to me to focus on the split when you’ve been saying how easy it is for scum to figure out fake claims.

Wait one thing about mag1c’s claim: Troocallt someone who is black mailed isn’t even allowed to claim that.

Ugh

trhjng to re think through: Would w!Helz allow Mag1c to actually live given the tunnel from yesterday?

Ugh

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/9/2026 at 8:00 PM (post #89)

If the split was somehow between world leaders and entertainers of some sort then Noah would be outted.

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/9/2026 at 8:00 PM (post #88)

Originally Posted by Helz on 10/9/2026 at 8:58 PM (post #85)

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/9/2026 at 7:55 PM (post #81)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/9/2026 at 8:54 PM (post #79)

But I’m just done arguing this. If Kohai and Helz want my character, I’ll just give it. I’m DJT.

Hmm so 3 world leader claims. Interesting

Wasn't gona say it but D1 they did say they were a world leader after I pointed out we have a potential split between world leaders and entertainers. Kinda hoped they would forget they said that and I could call a slip but I could just be wrong about them.

Well we have world leaders and one entertainer (Michael Jackson) that’s town. So I don’t think that’s the split there.

I am playing from memory with no notes which I never do. But from memory there were 2 entertainer claims

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/9/2026 at 8:01 PM (post #93)

Originally Posted by Helz on 10/9/2026 at 8:56 PM (post #83)

PWe clearly have very different perspectives on this.

I suppose so. Given either flavor or role reveals could help solve right now in a huge way and the critical town role has already flipped I just do not see it.

If nothing else you and the handful of other no-claims should have greater thoughts about the potential split. We know its absolutely AI and figuring out that split is a major factor with later claimers being more sus in the situation.

I’m not convinced my claim will be the kind of massive help you believe it will be, and if you’re looking for me to give thoughts on a split, I did already cover that to some degree last DP. The problem is that, as you already said, we know scum have asked about two characters. We shouldn’t expect that they’ve straight claimed their characters, nor that their fake claims will put them due to being on the wrong side of the split. Feels a little strange to me to focus on the split when you’ve been saying how easy it is for scum to figure out fake claims.

I get you. But its not about me feeling they are easy to fake. Its about you holding back on the claim when your reasoning was that it would out your role.

I figured this game flavor was a wash. It was something just useful to break RVS. But its weird how resistant people are to giving it now.

The long and short of it is that I don’t trust the existence of both a Vanillaizer and a Blackmailer here, either, but I also think it would be odd for a scum team that has a Vanillaizer to fake a Blackmailer claim, particularly if town is as weak as it looks. Doesn’t mean I’m accepting Mag1c’s statement that he was Blackmailed at face value, I’m just trying to determine if he’d take this big of a risk. Dude has claimed to be affected by a Poisoner before as scum, so I wouldn’t put it past him.

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/9/2026 at 8:01 PM (post #91)

Perhaps a mass character claim should be done to help narrow the theme split?

I would not mind seeing a hardline full flavor claim today from everyone.

Unless people feel anti-claim mechanics exist (which absolutely nobody has expressed even when I opened the door for someone to use that excuse) I do not see the harm at all and it does point twords the non-claimed individuals. I will again point out the decision to kill Mag (one of the claimed individuals) as opposed to a non-claimed person points to that.

That said- WF Vandalizing makes more sense than a Mag1c Blackmail by miles.

Originally Posted by Helz on 10/9/2026 at 9:04 PM (post #97)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/9/2026 at 8:01 PM (post #93)

Originally Posted by Helz on 10/9/2026 at 8:56 PM (post #83)

PWe clearly have very different perspectives on this.

I suppose so. Given either flavor or role reveals could help solve right now in a huge way and the critical town role has already flipped I just do not see it.

If nothing else you and the handful of other no-claims should have greater thoughts about the potential split. We know its absolutely AI and figuring out that split is a major factor with later claimers being more sus in the situation.

I’m not convinced my claim will be the kind of massive help you believe it will be, and if you’re looking for me to give thoughts on a split, I did already cover that to some degree last DP. The problem is that, as you already said, we know scum have asked about two characters. We shouldn’t expect that they’ve straight claimed their characters, nor that their fake claims will put them due to being on the wrong side of the split. Feels a little strange to me to focus on the split when you’ve been saying how easy it is for scum to figure out fake claims.

I get you. But its not about me feeling they are easy to fake. Its about you holding back on the claim when your reasoning was that it would out your role.

I’m still convinced my role will be pretty obvious from this, though I won’t discuss that in more detail unless people really want my role on the off chance that it’s only obvious to me.

I figured this game flavor was a wash. It was something just useful to break RVS. But its weird how resistant people are to giving it now.

Figured I was pretty clear on the why.

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/9/2026 at 9:07 PM (post #98)

The long and short of it is that I don’t trust the existence of both a Vanillaizer and a Blackmailer here, either, but I also think it would be odd for a scum team that has a Vanillaizer to fake a Blackmailer claim, particularly if town is as weak as it looks. Doesn’t mean I’m accepting Mag1c’s statement that he was Blackmailed at face value, I’m just trying to determine if he’d take this big of a risk. Dude has claimed to be affected by a Poisoner before as scum, so I wouldn’t put it past him.

Right now town claim only has

-2x doctor

-popular

1 major negative utility role

blackmailer + vanillaizer does seem way too OP

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/9/2026 at 8:07 PM (post #98)

The long and short of it is that I don’t trust the existence of both a Vanillaizer and a Blackmailer here, either, but I also think it would be odd for a scum team that has a Vanillaizer to fake a Blackmailer claim, particularly if town is as weak as it looks. Doesn’t mean I’m accepting Mag1c’s statement that he was Blackmailed at face value, I’m just trying to determine if he’d take this big of a risk. Dude has claimed to be affected by a Poisoner before as scum, so I wouldn’t put it past him.

So, something on my mind is looking at the meta pattern. If you look at the links I dropped it was Mag1c pushing a case while doing everything possible to avoid owning up to not having one as scum and pushing to kill me as town. Faking a BM claim follows that exact same pattern of behavior. Casting votes to point a finger while avoiding having any reason or accountability.

(And again, I will state I was told by the host that Bastard mechanics do not exist and that I believe Blackmailer to be a bastard mechanic making their claim just fake)

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/9/2026 at 9:10 PM (post #101)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/9/2026 at 9:07 PM (post #98)

The long and short of it is that I don’t trust the existence of both a Vanillaizer and a Blackmailer here, either, but I also think it would be odd for a scum team that has a Vanillaizer to fake a Blackmailer claim, particularly if town is as weak as it looks. Doesn’t mean I’m accepting Mag1c’s statement that he was Blackmailed at face value, I’m just trying to determine if he’d take this big of a risk. Dude has claimed to be affected by a Poisoner before as scum, so I wouldn’t put it past him.

Right now town claim only has

-2x doctor

-popular

1 major negative utility role

blackmailer + vanillaizer does seem way too OP

I’ll say that my role doesn’t significantly alter that calculus.

Originally Posted by Helz on 10/9/2026 at 9:10 PM (post #102)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/9/2026 at 8:07 PM (post #98)

The long and short of it is that I don’t trust the existence of both a Vanillaizer and a Blackmailer here, either, but I also think it would be odd for a scum team that has a Vanillaizer to fake a Blackmailer claim, particularly if town is as weak as it looks. Doesn’t mean I’m accepting Mag1c’s statement that he was Blackmailed at face value, I’m just trying to determine if he’d take this big of a risk. Dude has claimed to be affected by a Poisoner before as scum, so I wouldn’t put it past him.

So, something on my mind is looking at the meta pattern. If you look at the links I dropped it was Mag1c pushing a case while doing everything possible to avoid owning up to not having one as scum and pushing to kill me as town. Faking a BM claim follows that exact same pattern of behavior. Casting votes to point a finger while avoiding having any reason or accountability.

(And again, I will state I was told by the host that Bastard mechanics do not exist and that I believe Blackmailer to be a bastard mechanic making their claim just fake)

Hadn’t thought about it this way, but I’ll consider it. Even if he is Blackmailed, Mag1c should be contributing more than this.

Should I expose my role now?

What do you mean, " you prevent chat" as a blackmailer?

Originally Posted by NoAhLeEcLaRk on 10/9/2026 at 8:15 PM (post #106)

What do you mean, " you prevent chat" as a blackmailer?

So Blackmailer is a complicated role that generally works 1 of 2 ways

1- It lets you silence a player from speaking (although some communities call this a silencer, which does kinda matter because then you are not "Blackmailed" you are "Silenced"

2- It could also let you make posting requirements. Things like "You must say these things" or "you must speak in this way"

The catch usually being that if you do not follow the terms you are given you die at the end of the day.

The reason this is considered a "Bastard mechanic" is that it can require someone to act against their win condition actively causing harm or not working to accomplish it. I thought that was talked about on this site. I could have my sights crossed. Kohai can confirm if it was but I believe we spoke about 'levels of bastard' at some point in discord and it was acknowledged that a Blackmailer is a bastard mechanic. With the host telling me there is no bastard mechanics in the game that raises questions of what was implemented or organized on the subject which is part of why I call bullshit on their "I am blackmailed" claim.

Also why I am a bit sideways over the issue after the entire misunderstanding about flavor being AI.

Did you get my last comment Kohai

Originally Posted by NoAhLeEcLaRk on 10/9/2026 at 9:26 PM (post #108)

Did you get my last comment Kohai

Yes.

Originally Posted by NoAhLeEcLaRk on 10/9/2026 at 9:14 PM (post #105)

Should I expose my role now?

Only if you feel it is beneficial to town and / or have any results from your actions last night

Two things came to mind when I gave the Vanillaizer and Blackmailer some thought.

First, we haven’t confirmed that the Vanillaizer is a scum role. There are town roles like Prober that would Vanillaize town players they target, and no, I wouldn’t expect whoever would have done that to just come out and say it.

Second, a Blackmailer makes a lot of sense in the context of this game, specifically, especially if we think the scum team is some combination of Epstein/Maxwell/Dershewitz. There’s a long history there of blackmail and blackmail-adjacent activities, even if they remain defiant about them.

Neither of these are a given. I still believe it’s very unlikely that scum have both a Vanillaizer and Blackmailer. But I can see a world where they only have one or the other.

A blackmailer does make sense for flavor. That is a solid point.

So ehh.. Is it crossing a line to ask you @Kohai if something was put in place to declare a blackmailer bastard or not? I do dislike messing with setup meta for analysis but its happening..

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/9/2026 at 9:48 PM (post #111)

Two things came to mind when I gave the Vanillaizer and Blackmailer some thought.

First, we haven’t confirmed that the Vanillaizer is a scum role. There are town roles like Prober that would Vanillaize town players they target, and no, I wouldn’t expect whoever would have done that to just come out and say it.

Second, a Blackmailer makes a lot of sense in the context of this game, specifically, especially if we think the scum team is some combination of Epstein/Maxwell/Dershewitz. There’s a long history there of blackmail and blackmail-adjacent activities, even if they remain defiant about them.

Neither of these are a given. I still believe it’s very unlikely that scum have both a Vanillaizer and Blackmailer. But I can see a world where they only have one or the other.

If it’s a town vanillaizer then that’s two major negative utility roles for town.

Originally Posted by Helz on 10/9/2026 at 9:53 PM (post #113)

So ehh.. Is it crossing a line to ask you @Kohai if something was put in place to declare a blackmailer bastard or not? I do dislike messing with setup meta for analysis but its happening..

IMHO blackmailer is bastard. That said everyone has different definitions of bastard

Imo if it was declared bastard then Mag1c is just 1000% scum who slipped not thinking to ask the right questions. Orrr we go into the really uncomfortable territory I do not want to speak about while the game is active.

I think most people view it as such. Which is a substantial part of my view. I was flatly told there are no bastard mechanics. So blackmailer should not exist making Mag1c simply scum.

But then there is that wiggle room of other people thinking otherwise. And I do not know what this site has set as a standard there or if anything was set at all.

I wouldn't know if this is beneficial to town, but I'm 2x Redirector

Originally Posted by NoAhLeEcLaRk on 10/9/2026 at 9:57 PM (post #118)

I wouldn't know if this is beneficial to town, but I'm 2x Redirector

Who did you target last night?

So pretty much we either have an outed scum host confirmed imo or we just have a weird situation where we can debate if a blackmailer is bastard or not and it wont matter because the people that created the setup will not participate.