Epstein's Island Mafia DP4

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/12/2026 at 7:59 PM (post #85)

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 10/12/2026 at 9:43 PM (post #77)

WF, fair read, and I appreciate you giving the towntells their due. On being hands off with Thoth in DP2: I’d point out you did the exact same thing. In your #280 you called Thoth “the most probable person to be his scum partner,” then voted Mag1c in #288, because DP2 was the WF vs Mag1c question and we all treated that as the lynch. I was in the same spot. I did put Thoth on the spot in #254 and told him he was still a top problem we had to deal with, but I wasn’t going to split votes away from the main question on an activity read. When I had a result, I voted him.

There's a difference between stating that I think I know the likely team and specifically putting attention on one of them (in this case, Mag1c) with the aim of getting to the other (Thoth) based on the flip. I don't see that kind of reasoning from you in your posts, and while you put some attention and Mag1c and me, there wasn't a clear decision that I could see. I do see you putting Thoth on the spot, but never stating a clear intent to vote or actually voting. I agree that changed in DP3.

There's only so much you can do with thoth and his generally sporadic activity levels, it's something I have struggled with him in multiple games. We are also pressed with a deadline and when I woke up dp2 the consensus was pretty much that a black mail and a vanillize didn't make sense existing on the same night phase, which I agreed with that logic. I've pressured thoth and been met with inactivity in more games than just this one. The difference in those games is that we usually have more time to sus him out, as opposed to me stalling the entire lynch of magic just to get him talking. The conclusion dp2 was obvious between you and magic, we had plenty of time to go through thoth still.

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/12/2026 at 10:02 PM (post #89)

Noah would have been the perfect person for me to keep around if I was scum. He was sussing Luna and was following my footsteps nearly the entire game. Keep that in mind as I always keep Noah alive.

Maybe. I'll consider it.

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/12/2026 at 8:01 PM (post #88)

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 10/12/2026 at 10:00 PM (post #86)

Kohai, if you want to follow the trail, follow all of it. Mag1c’s top sus wasn’t me, it was Helz, “solid scum.” I was a “much lighter” second. After he got blackmailed, the only thing he could do was vote Helz. And the very first person to jump on that vote was you, DP2 #13. WF flagged that himself in DP2: “I didn’t like the early jumping on the same vote with Mag1c.” The Blackmailer silenced Mag1c, his vote landed on Helz, you piled on, and that Helz vs Mag1c fight is what got town Mag1c lynched. The trail of blood points at Thoth just as much. Mago died voting him, and Thoth was scum. And Noah’s own N1 plan was a redirect between you and me, with a “strong scum read on one” of us. His sus wasn’t only on me.

In what world do I kill Noah n2 over someone like you? Noah had me as solid town read. If I was scum I'd easily have been abe to manipulate him given that he was following my footsteps nearly the entire game.

Kohai, WF already answered this in #90 and I agree with him. Noah was a wild card with a redirector that came online N3, and as a new player he wasn’t going to lead a lynch anyway. Being easy to steer in the thread doesn’t matter if he can mess with your night kill. And his redirect plan from DP2 was literally between you and me, with a “strong scum read on one” of us. If you’re scum, that’s a new player with a live redirector pointed in your direction going into N3. That’s exactly who you remove. As for “why not kill me”: nobody knew I was the cop on N2. I was unclaimed, and both you and Noah were sussing me. You said yourself in DP2 that I was “the one person I really need to solve.” Scum don’t kill their best mis lynch candidate. They keep him around.

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 10/12/2026 at 10:06 PM (post #93)

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/12/2026 at 8:01 PM (post #88)

Scum don’t kill their best mis lynch candidate. They keep him around.

Exactly. And you know very well I'm the easiest mislynch around. If I was scum why would I put myself in a 2 v 1 situation with two of the top players on the site that are typically very difficult to lynch?

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 10/12/2026 at 10:03 PM (post #91)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/12/2026 at 7:59 PM (post #85)

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 10/12/2026 at 9:43 PM (post #77)

WF, fair read, and I appreciate you giving the towntells their due. On being hands off with Thoth in DP2: I’d point out you did the exact same thing. In your #280 you called Thoth “the most probable person to be his scum partner,” then voted Mag1c in #288, because DP2 was the WF vs Mag1c question and we all treated that as the lynch. I was in the same spot. I did put Thoth on the spot in #254 and told him he was still a top problem we had to deal with, but I wasn’t going to split votes away from the main question on an activity read. When I had a result, I voted him.

There's a difference between stating that I think I know the likely team and specifically putting attention on one of them (in this case, Mag1c) with the aim of getting to the other (Thoth) based on the flip. I don't see that kind of reasoning from you in your posts, and while you put some attention and Mag1c and me, there wasn't a clear decision that I could see. I do see you putting Thoth on the spot, but never stating a clear intent to vote or actually voting. I agree that changed in DP3.

There's only so much you can do with thoth and his generally sporadic activity levels, it's something I have struggled with him in multiple games. We are also pressed with a deadline and when I woke up dp2 the consensus was pretty much that a black mail and a vanillize didn't make sense existing on the same night phase, which I agreed with that logic. I've pressured thoth and been met with inactivity in more games than just this one. The difference in those games is that we usually have more time to sus him out, as opposed to me stalling the entire lynch of magic just to get him talking. The conclusion dp2 was obvious between you and magic, we had plenty of time to go through thoth still.

I guess, though the difference here is that, even when Thoth was active, there wasn't the kind of push I'd expect from someone who was clearly sussing him. I agree, attention in the DP was on the belief that only Mag1c or I were telling the truth. You seemed pretty on the fence about it, and I get that. It just seems odd that, when you had a clear scumread besides and he did become active later in the DP, there were a couple of posts making your reads clear, a post asking him some admittedly pointed questions, and no votes.

Anyway, taking a break for now. I'm not planning to make the decision tonight, and I'll continue to do the back and forth for a while before I call it. I want to sleep on this and make sure I'm not just overfocusing on a couple of elements that stand out to me.

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/12/2026 at 10:10 PM (post #96)

Anyway, taking a break for now. I'm not planning to make the decision tonight, and I'll continue to do the back and forth for a while before I call it. I want to sleep on this and make sure I'm not just overfocusing on a couple of elements that stand out to me.

What questions do you want me to answer specifically

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/12/2026 at 8:08 PM (post #94)

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 10/12/2026 at 10:06 PM (post #93)

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/12/2026 at 8:01 PM (post #88)

Scum don’t kill their best mis lynch candidate. They keep him around.

Exactly. And you know very well I'm the easiest mislynch around. If I was scum why would I put myself in a 2 v 1 situation with two of the top players on the site that are typically very difficult to lynch?

Kohai, you didn’t pick this final three, the Soldier did. Read Helz’s flip. If he’s the last living town member, town auto wins. So if you’re scum going into N3: Kill me, and my Thoth guilty is basically confirmed. Town lynches you, or mislynches WF and Helz is last town. You lose both ways. Kill WF, and Helz and I vote you. You lose. Kill Helz, and it’s a 50/50 in front of WF.

Killing Helz was the only kill that didn’t lose on the spot. “Why would I put myself here” doesn’t hold up when this was the only spot left.

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/12/2026 at 8:09 PM (post #95)

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 10/12/2026 at 10:03 PM (post #91)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/12/2026 at 7:59 PM (post #85)

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 10/12/2026 at 9:43 PM (post #77)

WF, fair read, and I appreciate you giving the towntells their due. On being hands off with Thoth in DP2: I’d point out you did the exact same thing. In your #280 you called Thoth “the most probable person to be his scum partner,” then voted Mag1c in #288, because DP2 was the WF vs Mag1c question and we all treated that as the lynch. I was in the same spot. I did put Thoth on the spot in #254 and told him he was still a top problem we had to deal with, but I wasn’t going to split votes away from the main question on an activity read. When I had a result, I voted him.

There's a difference between stating that I think I know the likely team and specifically putting attention on one of them (in this case, Mag1c) with the aim of getting to the other (Thoth) based on the flip. I don't see that kind of reasoning from you in your posts, and while you put some attention and Mag1c and me, there wasn't a clear decision that I could see. I do see you putting Thoth on the spot, but never stating a clear intent to vote or actually voting. I agree that changed in DP3.

There's only so much you can do with thoth and his generally sporadic activity levels, it's something I have struggled with him in multiple games. We are also pressed with a deadline and when I woke up dp2 the consensus was pretty much that a black mail and a vanillize didn't make sense existing on the same night phase, which I agreed with that logic. I've pressured thoth and been met with inactivity in more games than just this one. The difference in those games is that we usually have more time to sus him out, as opposed to me stalling the entire lynch of magic just to get him talking. The conclusion dp2 was obvious between you and magic, we had plenty of time to go through thoth still.

I guess, though the difference here is that, even when Thoth was active, there wasn't the kind of push I'd expect from someone who was clearly sussing him. I agree, attention in the DP was on the belief that only Mag1c or I were telling the truth. You seemed pretty on the fence about it, and I get that. It just seems odd that, when you had a clear scumread besides and he did become active later in the DP, there were a couple of posts making your reads clear, a post asking him some admittedly pointed questions, and no votes.

I am usually reserved with my votes, I describe myself as an intentional voter. On that end, I don't think there's a point to voting thoth at this point in the day phase if the vote won't accomplish much, and I was in general agreement about the vanillize/blackmailer dynamic. Even knowing he is scum now for sure, I don't know that in hind sight trying to steer the game in that direction makes the most sense with the information we had and at the point in the game we were at, and the limited activity from thoth. I explored him in later rounds and that should be enough.

The case against Kohai:

Kohai already told us Popular doesn’t prove alignment. DP1 #152: “wolves have had popular modifiers like this in Mikal’s games.” DP1 #155: it would “prove my role and not necessarily alignment.” Today he’s asking if anyone’s ever seen a Popular with extra powers. He answered that himself on day one.

His reads were wrong in exactly one direction. WF, he’s been on you since DP1 #113 (“strong potential pairing”) and opened DP3 with “almost certain it’s wf.” You know you’re town. He also floated a Helz/Luna team, voted Helz alongside the blackmailed Mag1c, and put town Mag1c at L1. Every player he pushed was town.

His handling of Thoth. He voted Thoth DP1 and immediately went “JK, unvote.” He townread him early DP2, which you yourself called strange. He didn’t vote him for real until after my guilty.

Vanillizer on DP1. He brought it up unprompted before anyone was vanillized, and Thoth called it “supermassive TMI.” Scum turned out to have exactly that.

The Blackmail chain. Mag1c gets blackmailed, his only move is a vote on Helz, and Kohai is the first one on it (DP2 #13). That fight is what got town Mag1c lynched.

The N3 kill. Per Helz’s Soldier flip, if Kohai is scum, killing me or you loses outright. Killing Helz was his only move that didn’t lose immediately. That’s why we’re here.

My results are 3 for 3. Helz town, Thoth scum, and WF, town. As scum I could have won DP3 in the first hour off Kohai’s own vote on you. Instead I handed you Thoth.

I just realised there is an interesting mirror between night kills / actions between this game and last game when luna and pie were scum.

N1: They killed banana and they had pie as one of their strongest scum reads

N2: They killed Mag1c and mag1c was voting luna

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/12/2026 at 8:26 PM (post #101)

I just realised there is an interesting mirror between night kills / actions between this game and last game when luna and pie were scum.

N1: They killed banana and they had pie as one of their strongest scum reads

N2: They killed Mag1c and mag1c was voting luna

Not really a mirror at all, I don't see how n1 has any correlation and magic never voted me here.

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 10/12/2026 at 10:27 PM (post #102)

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/12/2026 at 8:26 PM (post #101)

I just realised there is an interesting mirror between night kills / actions between this game and last game when luna and pie were scum.

N1: They killed banana and they had pie as one of their strongest scum reads

N2: They killed Mag1c and mag1c was voting luna

Not really a mirror at all, I don't see how n1 has any correlation and magic never voted me here.

But mag1c did mention you as a top scum read. Funny how 2 players who sussed you were all targeted. Mag1c was blackmailed and Noah was night killed. Those kills and actions have your finger prints all over them

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/12/2026 at 8:29 PM (post #103)

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 10/12/2026 at 10:27 PM (post #102)

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/12/2026 at 8:26 PM (post #101)

I just realised there is an interesting mirror between night kills / actions between this game and last game when luna and pie were scum.

N1: They killed banana and they had pie as one of their strongest scum reads

N2: They killed Mag1c and mag1c was voting luna

Not really a mirror at all, I don't see how n1 has any correlation and magic never voted me here.

But mag1c did mention you as a top scum read. Funny how 2 players who sussed you were all targeted. Mag1c was blackmailed and Noah was night killed. Those kills and actions have your finger prints all over them

Kohai, Mag1c’s top scumread was Helz, “solid scum.” I was a “much lighter” second. And blackmailing him didn’t stop him voting me. His one vote went to Helz, and you were first on it. Your case also needs me to be two different players at once. I’m careless enough to kill and blackmail the two people sussing me, leaving my “fingerprints all over it,” but also calculated enough to bus my own partner with a cop claim. Pick one. And if we’re reading fingerprints, Mago died voting Thoth, and Thoth was scum. Kills that point at someone are exactly how you frame them.

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/12/2026 at 10:10 PM (post #97)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/12/2026 at 10:10 PM (post #96)

Anyway, taking a break for now. I'm not planning to make the decision tonight, and I'll continue to do the back and forth for a while before I call it. I want to sleep on this and make sure I'm not just overfocusing on a couple of elements that stand out to me.

What questions do you want me to answer specifically

You know, I don't think I have any specific ones yet. I'm more trying to develop what I see as a pattern of behavior that's giving me some insight into how you were thinking at various times. Might change as I dig deeper, but for now, I'm at least getting some clarity from just reading through the ISO.

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/12/2026 at 11:05 PM (post #105)

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/12/2026 at 10:10 PM (post #97)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/12/2026 at 10:10 PM (post #96)

Anyway, taking a break for now. I'm not planning to make the decision tonight, and I'll continue to do the back and forth for a while before I call it. I want to sleep on this and make sure I'm not just overfocusing on a couple of elements that stand out to me.

What questions do you want me to answer specifically

You know, I don't think I have any specific ones yet. I'm more trying to develop what I see as a pattern of behavior that's giving me some insight into how you were thinking at various times. Might change as I dig deeper, but for now, I'm at least getting some clarity from just reading through the ISO.

Sounds good. I’m gonna take a break for a bit.

After this game I seriously need a long mental health break

I am usually reserved with my votes, I describe myself as an intentional voter. On that end, I don't think there's a point to voting thoth at this point in the day phase if the vote won't accomplish much, and I was in general agreement about the vanillize/blackmailer dynamic. Even knowing he is scum now for sure, I don't know that in hind sight trying to steer the game in that direction makes the most sense with the information we had and at the point in the game we were at, and the limited activity from thoth. I explored him in later rounds and that should be enough.

As someone who is pretty reserved with voting myself, I get it, but I do also recognize that you're trying to gain some steam off of sussing Thoth when you were clearly unwilling to push him based on your sus. Wouldn't be a first for you to break with others in the DP, though I'll grant you that the 1v1 that was being setup at the time was really drawing enough attention that it likely wouldn't have gone anywhere. Maybe you could see the writing on the wall for that push at the time. Again, though, I don't really like that you keep pointing to Thoth's lack of activity as an excuse. Thoth was absent over a good deal of the DP, sure, but there are substantial overlaps in your activity and his during DP2, overlaps when he was present and posting for over an hour in the early morning (particularly true on the day the lynch went through). I don't buy that he just was too inactive to consider because you didn't expect to receive responses. I know he's ghosted us before, but I don't buy that here.

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 10/12/2026 at 10:25 PM (post #100)

The case against Kohai:

Kohai already told us Popular doesn’t prove alignment. DP1 #152: “wolves have had popular modifiers like this in Mikal’s games.” DP1 #155: it would “prove my role and not necessarily alignment.” Today he’s asking if anyone’s ever seen a Popular with extra powers. He answered that himself on day one.

Both posts you're referencing basically amount to "my being confirmed Popular should be NAI." Neither of them suggest he's seen a game where a Popular player has an active role to boot, so no, I don't believe he answered that himself on day 1. He's continued to suggest he's never seen it before, though I have made a game where scum had a player like that and I posted the link for it.

His reads were wrong in exactly one direction. WF, he’s been on you since DP1 #113 (“strong potential pairing”) and opened DP3 with “almost certain it’s wf.” You know you’re town. He also floated a Helz/Luna team, voted Helz alongside the blackmailed Mag1c, and put town Mag1c at L1. Every player he pushed was town.

As in any game, I don't think sussing me is a scum tell, regardless of how townie I think I'm being. I don't really get considering pairings in DP1, but we were all basing our reads on threadbare information then. And in DP3, especially with the focus on me, Kohai and Helz and the belief that we should lynch in that pool, I get it. I mechanically had a whole lot less going for me than Helz did, so POE was enough to consider me the obvious choice, and for a lot of the DP, we'd all written off a pairing between you and Thoth. It could be sus, just not obviously so.

His handling of Thoth. He voted Thoth DP1 and immediately went “JK, unvote.” He townread him early DP2, which you yourself called strange. He didn’t vote him for real until after my guilty.

I went back and re-read that exchange. He was literally responding to Thoth saying "It is never okay to VTL me, and I do not grant you permission to ever do so." So, yeah, it was a response to a bit of absurdity from Thoth. I was sussing it, but closer inspection says it's NAI. I agree, the decision to townread Thoth early in DP2 was odd. I disagree that his voting Thoth based on the belief that a) your Cop result was accurate and b) the second Blackmail couldn't be real is sus. I think he had a reasonable basis for the vote and it solidified a position he was slowly building through DP2. And yes, just like you, he was reticent to vote for Thoth in DP2, focusing on the 1v1 between me and Mag1c. Not really sussing either of you for that.

Vanillizer on DP1. He brought it up unprompted before anyone was vanillized, and Thoth called it “supermassive TMI.” Scum turned out to have exactly that.

Covered this before, but he a) brought it up in a previous game without a Vanillaizer, b) had no incentive to out his partner's role, and c) would have to have been called out by his own partner for TMI. It's odd, I'll give you that, but the decision doesn't make logical sense for him. I'd expect Kohai from like a year ago to make that kind of error and draw attention to himself, but I've seen Kohai improve a great deal and I don't think he's likely to do it now. Off chance, but not an obvious sus.

The Blackmail chain. Mag1c gets blackmailed, his only move is a vote on Helz, and Kohai is the first one on it (DP2 #13). That fight is what got town Mag1c lynched.

I just don't get this. So Mag1c voted Helz. Kohai voted Helz with him. There was a "fight," which basically amounted to a question about whether there could be both a Vanillaizer and a Blackmailer (again, the 1v1 we've been talking about a good deal, which involved everyone), so... Kohai is to blame for Mag1c's lynch? What am I missing? Feels like an Underpants Gnomes situation where a step is missing.

The N3 kill. Per Helz’s Soldier flip, if Kohai is scum, killing me or you loses outright. Killing Helz was his only move that didn’t lose immediately. That’s why we’re here.

Was wondering when this would come up and from whom. Yeah, the Soldier claim was a pretty big deal. I got the impression that Helz was very clear-eyed about making it. He knew he'd pretty much have to be the NK, regardless of who was scum. Assuming Kohai's scum, you're absolutely right, he couldn't kill you. That would have given town another route to victory since he could have just lynched me and been done with it. But a similar dynamic is true for you. If you're scum, then your fake green check on Helz effectively makes it impossible to lynch him in a three-way fight between you, him and either me or Kohai. And it wouldn't matter if Kohai or I was lynched, since Helz would've soloed the win.

So you're right. Killing Helz was the only move Kohai could make if he was scum. What you've left out is that killing Helz was also the only move you could make if you were scum.

My results are 3 for 3. Helz town, Thoth scum, and WF, town. As scum I could have won DP3 in the first hour off Kohai’s own vote on you. Instead I handed you Thoth.

I get it, your claimed results were accurate. If you're scum, you'd have already known all these results, so that's true whether you're a town Cop or just straight up scum. And once again, I'll point out that Kohai didn't post a vote on me DP3. Kohai several times said he was sussing me and considered a vote on me, but he never cast one, as evidenced by the fact that he was on the Thoth lynch instead of just, you know, being locked in on me.

I get that the decision to go after Thoth helps your case because you did have what looked like a clear route to victory putting attention on either Helz or me last DP. You would have had to make a call early on in the DP that the risk of losing that vote was too great, putting your attention on winning this DP. That's not the obvious choice. Helz didn't think it was and I don't think it was, either. I am considering that. I know you to take big risks for big rewards as a scum player, though, and I can't just dismiss that, either.

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/12/2026 at 10:26 PM (post #101)

I just realised there is an interesting mirror between night kills / actions between this game and last game when luna and pie were scum.

N1: They killed banana and they had pie as one of their strongest scum reads

N2: They killed Mag1c and mag1c was voting luna

Two things about this.

One, this would be a circumstance with a different scum pairing, so I don't expect the decisions made on targets would be equivalent between games, even if Luna is scum.

Two, one thing I know from playing with Luna as scum several times is that he doesn't give a fuck who his target is sussing. He's pretty prideful about not wanting to eliminate targets just because they're focusing on him. He's just not that kind of player as scum. If this did end up getting mirrored, I honestly believe that is more random chance than anything else.

I'm about to go to sleep. Gonna make my final points

Regarding Luna's case:

1) Why would I "slip" the existence of a vanillaizer?

2) I've shown in multiple previous games that roles like this is what I'm always thinking about especially when I have a role that is confirmable.

3) Blackmail chain: I had thought that there was scum between helz / mag1c for reasons I stated earlier in the game. In the end we were forced to lynch mag1c

My case:

1) I encourage you to review again the interacitons between luan / thoth. Both sussed each other but never voted or hard pushed each other. Luna had multiple opporunities to vote thoth / wagon him day 1. He chose to keep his vote on shining.

2) Mech:

1. Why would Hawking be in the game but Clinton not? Luna himself admitted that Clinton is likely to be in the game. Why would I, as scum, risk asking about a character that's high probability to be in the game?
2. Does cop and the stated justification actually fit with Stephen Hawking? Compare his justification "I have one of the greatest minds in history, and nothing escapes my analysis" and compare that with justifications that have flipped.

I'll say more later but I'm getting really tired

Alright, I'm heading off too. I'll make a call on this sometime tomorrow morning most likely.

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/12/2026 at 9:16 PM (post #107)

I am usually reserved with my votes, I describe myself as an intentional voter. On that end, I don't think there's a point to voting thoth at this point in the day phase if the vote won't accomplish much, and I was in general agreement about the vanillize/blackmailer dynamic. Even knowing he is scum now for sure, I don't know that in hind sight trying to steer the game in that direction makes the most sense with the information we had and at the point in the game we were at, and the limited activity from thoth. I explored him in later rounds and that should be enough.

As someone who is pretty reserved with voting myself, I get it, but I do also recognize that you're trying to gain some steam off of sussing Thoth when you were clearly unwilling to push him based on your sus. Wouldn't be a first for you to break with others in the DP, though I'll grant you that the 1v1 that was being setup at the time was really drawing enough attention that it likely wouldn't have gone anywhere. Maybe you could see the writing on the wall for that push at the time. Again, though, I don't really like that you keep pointing to Thoth's lack of activity as an excuse. Thoth was absent over a good deal of the DP, sure, but there are substantial overlaps in your activity and his during DP2, overlaps when he was present and posting for over an hour in the early morning (particularly true on the day the lynch went through). I don't buy that he just was too inactive to consider because you didn't expect to receive responses. I know he's ghosted us before, but I don't buy that here.

WF, I’m going to stand on all of it, and I want to add something that I think settles the “you’d know the results anyway” point.

If I’m a fake cop, I pick my results. I could have said Helz guilty, and town lynches the Soldier DP3. Game over, scum win. I could have said WF guilty, and Kohai was already “almost certain it’s wf.” Game over. Any fake guilty on any townie wins on the spot. Instead I “chose” an innocent on the Soldier and a guilty on my own partner. Scum knowing the results doesn’t help your case, it kills it. A scum cop with free choice of results never hands town his partner when every other guilty wins. Thoth: “overlaps in activity” isn’t engagement. When he did show up in DP2 he told us he was “only on page 5 reading up” and was talking balance theory. I put him on the spot in #254, he dodged with “Mag1c is my choice of scum,” and the entire town agreed the day was WF vs Mag1c. I’m not apologizing for not splitting votes off the consensus question.

Both posts you're referencing basically amount to "my being confirmed Popular should be NAI." Neither of them suggest he's seen a game where a Popular player has an active role to boot, so no, I don't believe he answered that himself on day 1. He's continued to suggest he's never seen it before, though I have made a game where scum had a player like that and I posted the link for it.

I mean I made the same point, the irony isn't lost on me that I am now the one having to argue that same point.

As in any game, I don't think sussing me is a scum tell, regardless of how townie I think I'm being. I don't really get considering pairings in DP1, but we were all basing our reads on threadbare information then. And in DP3, especially with the focus on me, Kohai and Helz and the belief that we should lynch in that pool, I get it. I mechanically had a whole lot less going for me than Helz did, so POE was enough to consider me the obvious choice, and for a lot of the DP, we'd all written off a pairing between you and Thoth. It could be sus, just not obviously so.

You have to look at the motives behind his pushes though, its not just about being suspicious of you. When you can actively dismiss every push I make on the one scum we have caught as "bussing" and give him a pass on every wrong push he's made, I don't know what to tell you anymore.

I went back and re-read that exchange. He was literally responding to Thoth saying "It is never okay to VTL me, and I do not grant you permission to ever do so." So, yeah, it was a response to a bit of absurdity from Thoth. I was sussing it, but closer inspection says it's NAI. I agree, the decision to townread Thoth early in DP2 was odd. I disagree that his voting Thoth based on the belief that a) your Cop result was accurate and b) the second Blackmail couldn't be real is sus. I think he had a reasonable basis for the vote and it solidified a position he was slowly building through DP2. And yes, just like you, he was reticent to vote for Thoth in DP2, focusing on the 1v1 between me and Mag1c. Not really sussing either of you for that.

Even with all the excuses you are making for kohai, a joke vote on your own partner is the cheapest distancing there is. Thoth giving him the setup line doesn’t make it NAI.

Covered this before, but he a) brought it up in a previous game without a Vanillaizer, b) had no incentive to out his partner's role, and c) would have to have been called out by his own partner for TMI. It's odd, I'll give you that, but the decision doesn't make logical sense for him. I'd expect Kohai from like a year ago to make that kind of error and draw attention to himself, but I've seen Kohai improve a great deal and I don't think he's likely to do it now. Off chance, but not an obvious sus.

Out of every role that exists, he named the one scum had, on DP1, unprompted. Thoth flagged it as TMI. Mentioning it in an old game doesn’t make it random here.

I just don't get this. So Mag1c voted Helz. Kohai voted Helz with him. There was a "fight," which basically amounted to a question about whether there could be both a Vanillaizer and a Blackmailer (again, the 1v1 we've been talking about a good deal, which involved everyone), so... Kohai is to blame for Mag1c's lynch? What am I missing? Feels like an Underpants Gnomes situation where a step is missing.

Step by step: scum silence Mag1c so he can’t defend himself or explain his reads. His only action is a vote on Helz. Kohai jumps on it before any reasoning exists. That makes Mag1c look like he’s pushing without a case, the WF/Mag1c balance question gets framed around him, and Kohai puts him at L1. That’s the missing step.

Was wondering when this would come up and from whom. Yeah, the Soldier claim was a pretty big deal. I got the impression that Helz was very clear-eyed about making it. He knew he'd pretty much have to be the NK, regardless of who was scum. Assuming Kohai's scum, you're absolutely right, he couldn't kill you. That would have given town another route to victory since he could have just lynched me and been done with it. But a similar dynamic is true for you. If you're scum, then your fake green check on Helz effectively makes it impossible to lynch him in a three-way fight between you, him and either me or Kohai. And it wouldn't matter if Kohai or I was lynched, since Helz would've soloed the win.

So you're right. Killing Helz was the only move Kohai could make if he was scum. What you've left out is that killing Helz was also the only move you could make if you were scum.

It wasn’t symmetrical. If I’m scum, I never need the night kill on Helz, because I could have lynched him DP3 with a single fake guilty. The only person who needed Helz dead at night was the scum who couldn’t control a cop result. That’s Kohai. My results are 3 for 3, and the only way they’re fake is if I threw away three separate guaranteed wins to set up a coin flip.

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 10/13/2026 at 12:42 AM (post #113)

My results are 3 for 3, and the only way they’re fake is if I threw away three separate guaranteed wins to set up a coin flip.

Which is quiet easy if you are scum.

Question when was the last time we had a game with a cop that didn’t include either godfather, milller, lawyer, framer or other way to clearly mess with the cop’s accuracy?

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/12/2026 at 10:20 PM (post #110)

I'm about to go to sleep. Gonna make my final points

Regarding Luna's case:

1) Why would I "slip" the existence of a vanillaizer?

Nobody chooses to slip. That’s what makes it a slip. You named a role on DP1 unprompted, framed as a worry about your own claim, and it turned out to be exactly what the scum team had. “I always think about these roles” doesn’t change which one you landed on.

2) I've shown in multiple previous games that roles like this is what I'm always thinking about especially when I have a role that is confirmable.

3) Blackmail chain: I had thought that there was scum between helz / mag1c for reasons I stated earlier in the game. In the end we were forced to lynch mag1c

Your read was “scum between Helz and Mag1c.” Both flipped town. And “we were forced to lynch Mag1c” leaves out that you’re the one who put him at L1.

My case:

1) I encourage you to review again the interacitons between luan / thoth. Both sussed each other but never voted or hard pushed each other. Luna had multiple opporunities to vote thoth / wagon him day 1. He chose to keep his vote on shining.

That applies to you more than me. You joke-voted Thoth DP1 and immediately unvoted. You townread him early DP2, and WF called that strange. You never voted him until after my guilty. At least I had him as a top scumread the entire time. You were giving him town credit.

2) Mech:

Why would Hawking be in the game but Clinton not? Luna himself admitted that Clinton is likely to be in the game. Why would I, as scum, risk asking about a character that's high probability to be in the game?

That’s not the question. Both could easily be in the game. The question is which one of us is lying about being who we say. Clinton plus Popular is the most natural fit in the setup, which is exactly why it’s the claim scum would want. One host question tells you if it’s safe. And you posted it at post 4 of DP1, before anyone else had said a word. WF flagged that kind of instant claim as a prep-time tell on day one.

Does cop and the stated justification actually fit with Stephen Hawking? Compare his justification "I have one of the greatest minds in history, and nothing escapes my analysis" and compare that with justifications that have flipped.

I wrote “justification in a nutshell” in DP3 #20 because I summarized it, I didn’t quote the PM. Your own Clinton justification was a one-line summary too. Hawking was at Epstein’s island conference in 2006 and is in the files. He’s as on theme as anyone here. None of this touches the core. Any fake guilty I wanted would have won the game DP3. I gave you Thoth.

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 10/13/2026 at 12:47 AM (post #115)

. Any fake guilty I wanted would have won the game DP3. I gave you Thoth.

You also handed town Wylted in bananas’s the Pitt game.

Point is I’ve seen you pull this shit off before and you’re just doing the same shit again

I also say it’s super easy to fake a guilty on your partner but faking guilty on a town is way too risky

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/12/2026 at 10:46 PM (post #114)

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 10/13/2026 at 12:42 AM (post #113)

My results are 3 for 3, and the only way they’re fake is if I threw away three separate guaranteed wins to set up a coin flip.

Which is quiet easy if you are scum.

Question when was the last time we had a game with a cop that didn’t include either godfather, milller, lawyer, framer or other way to clearly mess with the cop’s accuracy?

This question is set up on false premises, we don't know the entire game balance yet, we don't know what the remaining scum role has. That said I've already explained in great depth why a vanillizer also works as a counter to cop here. There's probably also games where lawyers and godfathers exist, but I am not going to do that research for you, when the cross also applies to your popular since there is plenty of games where scum have popular and outside roles.

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/12/2026 at 10:49 PM (post #116)

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 10/13/2026 at 12:47 AM (post #115)

. Any fake guilty I wanted would have won the game DP3. I gave you Thoth.

You also handed town Wylted in bananas’s the Pitt game.

Point is I’ve seen you pull this shit off before and you’re just doing the same shit again

Very different scenarios, because in that game there was a reason to bus, in this one there is absolutely no reason to bus. Your basically just saying that I decided to put the game in a 50/50 for no reason when I could have won the game just as easily yesterday. Yes I have bussed as scum. But when have I ever done it for 0 net gain like you are accusing me of here?

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 10/13/2026 at 12:51 AM (post #118)

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/12/2026 at 10:46 PM (post #114)

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 10/13/2026 at 12:42 AM (post #113)

My results are 3 for 3, and the only way they’re fake is if I threw away three separate guaranteed wins to set up a coin flip.

Which is quiet easy if you are scum.

Question when was the last time we had a game with a cop that didn’t include either godfather, milller, lawyer, framer or other way to clearly mess with the cop’s accuracy?

This question is set up on false premises, we don't know the entire game balance yet, we don't know what the remaining scum role has.

WTf are you talking about? We know from Mag1c it’s blackmailer. You really think scum is a popular blackmailer?

That said I've already explained in great depth why a vanillizer also works as a counter to cop here.

No. It. Is. Not. Scum have a direct counter to tracker (ninja) doctor and Bp (strongman) but we are supposed to believe the only counter to cop is vanilla?

There's probably also games where lawyers and godfathers exist, but I am not going to do that research for you, when the cross also applies to your popular since there is plenty of games where scum have popular and outside roles.

The point is pie helped balance this game and I doubt he would give us a cop without a direct counter.