Retro Mafia - DP2

I get that RT's claim is sus. I understand sussing it. My confusion is with the statement that we should lynch him before scum had a chance to NK him. Even with the original writing of the role, if we had some other reason to townread him (just to be clear, I don't see one right now), I think the notion that it's functionally the same for town to sacrifice a lynch to achieve the same effect as scum using an NK for the same effect doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I agree that I mistrust the claim for a number of reasons, I just don't like that your response to the claim was, in part, that we're going to lose the DP anyway, so why not sacrifice the lynch while we're at it?

I don't make anything of Rex reading RT's typo literally, but this does actually raise a good point that I was actually thinking about even before you posted this: even if RT was a bog-standard Beloved Princess, why would that mean immediately lynching him? It doesn't make sense. It's like using the logic of "this player is either scum or town, that's two options, so we have a 50/50 shot of hitting scum if we lynch them" but completely unironically. Not to mention that if there's a doctor in the game, protecting the Princess only makes sense, and there probably is some kind of protective role in the game. So I don't think it's a given that RT dies tonight if he's town.

I will say, however, that the way Rex has been hard pushing RT tells me that they're most likely unpaired. I can't 100% rule out a bus but I don't think it's likely at this early point in the game. I feel like one of those two should probably be the lynch today.

Also going to mechanic SOP that I did not choose anyone. I didn't realize that you had to choose before Dp1 ended. I probably would've chosen Pie if I would've looking back at DP but right now I am in a PM with Whiteflame at the moment. I've given him my thoughts on some of the players as well after skimming

You know what, I buy this. I also don't think scum would waste their Mason invite opportunity like that, and I don't think Vader would likely make this mistake as scum given that he'd have a partner or two (I'm leaning strongly towards a 8-2-1 game based on Icon's flip) to remind him and discuss Mason strategy with him.

I get that RT's claim is sus. I understand sussing it. My confusion is with the statement that we should lynch him before scum had a chance to NK him. Even with the original writing of the role, if we had some other reason to townread him (just to be clear, I don't see one right now), I think the notion that it's functionally the same for town to sacrifice a lynch to achieve the same effect as scum using an NK for the same effect doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

It makes sense because I think he's lying and scum. If his argument is that we shouldn't lynch him because we will lose a DP, my counterargument is that any competent scum team would kill him this night, and we'd lose a DP anyway. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. Plus, it seemed like the kind of scum play where you might try to convince the doc to protect you, as no other power roles are claimed right now and RT would be the obvious NK target if the doc thinks he's town.

Scum are already in a PM with their faction. So they chose a townie or a possible TP with their Mason ability to work out more info/help their play. That means we can eliminate all the current combos of 2 as scum pairings

Getting back to this one: Pie actually told me about this idea already in our chat, and I partially agree with it. I agree that scum would not be looking to waste their Mason invitations, though there is inherently a bit of WIFOM with this line of logic. Still, prima facie, if two players are in a Mason chat together, all other things being equal, I would agree that they are more likely unpaired than not. I don't think this can be used to hard solve the game but it does help.

I’m Tetris, and I require one additional vote to be lynched, so basically the Popular Townie. Mikal clarified that I deactivate at MYLO/LYLO.

Why does being Tetris make you Popular?

Regardless, I'm fine testing this out, no reason not to.

VTL Pie

Mharman - I dislike Mharman. Whiteflame and I disagree with this but Mharman's initial reaction to saying he's town locked is not just incorrect,

Go ahead and give your reasoning for this one lol

ir reading RT’s claim wrong. He corrected it

That being said, the things that stand out to me about the claim are that for one, it’s “a nooooo don’t lynch me” claim, and two, we already have hider. So now two ways scum can get two night kills. Only possible in a 9v2.

I don’t like how he ended the DP so early. I don’t like how Lunatic is dead and janitored.

ir reading RT’s claim wrong. He corrected it

I know, I was responding to people who were confused by my initial response before he corrected it.

Scum are already in a PM with their faction. So they chose a townie or a possible TP with their Mason ability to work out more info/help their play. That means we can eliminate all the current combos of 2 as scum pairings:

Mharman/WF

Casey/Ragnar

Theist/Luna

Whiteflame/Vader

REF/Pie

Earth/Whiteflame

Ragnar/Whiteflame

Pie/Casey

I would be careful about this. I spotted that this was your idea sometime during the night phase. Mafia, who is already thinking about who they’re going to select, may have spotted it as well. If I can figure it out from my pov, they definitely can.

thus the counterplay would be to waive a mason and then claim they are masoned with your teammate. Only one of them needs to do this; the other can use their mason on someone else

Seriously. If you’re scum all you have to is what I’ve described. Claim to have masoned your teammate while waiving. That’s it.

there needs to be more nuance added here. Please consider the incentives of adding specific people

I’ll leave it at that

To keep you honest: what is the justification for you role?

Ok

1. you were never town locked to start and you justifying yourself that you are town locked is inherently scummy considering the flip
2. you clearly baited a new person that didn’t know what they were doing. You were the first to suggest that there was some type of 3p in the game to cause him to fake out

theres 2 reasons

Apologies.

im going to extend this game cycle until tomorrow at morning at 9 cst.

a few people had valid complaints about th difference between phone and computer. To compensate for this

i am adding the extra day

also all submissions must be through mobile to make this fair. When submitting please have the phone in the background (time battery etc). snip the entire screen. Apologies for not thinking of this sooner.

1. you were never town locked to start and you justifying yourself that you are town locked is inherently scummy considering the flip
2. you clearly baited a new person that didn’t know what they were doing. You were the first to suggest that there was some type of 3p in the game to cause him to fake out

ill start with point 2: for this point, you have to buy that I was suggesting the possibility of survivor with the purpose of getting him to claim it… which he could’ve easily avoided by reading his PM properly. So the idea that I was banking something like that is ridiculous.

My whole idea there was that he might pull a waterphoenix and tell us what faction he was, not knowing how to play the game. So I actually hinging on him actually reading the PM (the one he confirmed to Mikal!) and understanding what his affiliation is… something that should be a given with everyone who plays this game.

Even noobs understand which affiliation they roll… the waterphoenix case proves they are often naive as to how to play said affiliation, sometimes to a hilarious extreme.

I expected Icon to be naive, not completely retarded.

it was a genuine effort at scumhunting, and when he claimed survivor, I felt like I had outed the survivor. Quite a feel people did, otherwise he wouldn’t have been lynched. This was genuine effort at scumhunting from me. Point 1, the flip, is his own fault for being so incompetent that he claimed survivor as town… all he had to do was read “you win with the town.”

Please consider the fact that if I’m scum, I’m not even trying a trick like this, especially not to out a survivor that I could be teaming up with later. The second I felt he was survivor, I would have masoned him and tried to keep him alive, rather than out the possibility of him being survivor.

assuming 8v2+1:

if survivor is lynched DP1:

DP1: survivor lynch + NK

7v2

DP2: mislynch + NK

5v2

DP3: mislynch + NK

3v2

DP4: mislynch, mafia wins

when teaming with the survivor:

DP1: mislynch + NK

6v2+1

DP2: mislynch + NK

4v2+1

DP3: mislynch

even if the NK fails, it’s a 3v2+1 and scum can team with the survivor. Scum wins.

… which why scum has such a high incentive to team with the survivor. The longer the game lasts, the more chances town has to confirm themselves and pinch mafia in a PoE squeeze.

And that’s why I’m lock town.

Much as I think it’s valid to have this discussion, I do think the DP needs some direction and we already have a pretty clear one for the interim: test Pie’s role. He claimed Popular, so if you don’t have a vote on him, it’s worth getting one up (at least until the point that it’s tested).

As for likely lynches, I’m between Rex and RT, but I think for now I’d most like the former to claim since we know what the latter has claimed. Does anyone object to that?

VTL Pie

Vote count?

ill start with point 2: for this point, you have to buy that I was suggesting the possibility of survivor with the purpose of getting him to claim it… which he could’ve easily avoided by reading his PM properly. So the idea that I was banking something like that is ridiculous.

this is a new player that probably had no idea what a survivor is on a site that just started mafia. I don’t think you were banking on that. I think you tried to pressure him so much that he made a mistake and hence your 3P take

My whole idea there was that he might pull a waterphoenix and tell us what faction he was, not knowing how to play the game. So I actually hinging on him actually reading the PM (the one he confirmed to Mikal!) and understanding what his affiliation is… something that should be a given with everyone who plays this game. 

this is an ineffective strategy. It was only ever done once by WaterPhoenix and hasn’t reoccurred with new players. That is honestly has such little logic besides you as scum putting pressure on a new player to force them to make a mistake, which is even more scummier

it was a genuine effort at scumhunting, and when he claimed survivor, I felt like I had outed the survivor. Quite a feel people did, otherwise he wouldn’t have been lynched. This was genuine effort at scumhunting from me. Point 1, the flip, is his own fault for being so incompetent that he claimed survivor as town… all he had to do was read “you win with the town.”

again, but when you suggest something that he may not be fully aware of as a first timer, you don’t think he will be slightly lost or confused? You jumped to a conclusion on him way before he even outted. That’s not scum hunting that’s targeting a new player, inherently scummy

Please consider the fact that if I’m scum, I’m not even trying a trick like this, especially not to out a survivor that I could be teaming up with later. The second I felt he was survivor, I would have masoned him and tried to keep him alive, rather than out the possibility of him being survivor.

i can’t quote you for some reason about the mechanic but in the ideal world then yes, you are right about the survivor but at the same time then you were not the one that then strongly pushed for his lynch. You pretty much backed off his lynch and not to mention, he was probably the target with or without your vote. This is just a way for you to generate town cred

… which why scum has such a high incentive to team with the survivor. The longer the game lasts, the more chances town has to confirm themselves and pinch mafia in a PoE squeeze.

And that’s why I’m lock town.

That doesn’t lock you as town though. There’s nothing locking about that since there are so many possibilities. Town lock would be a cop getting a guilty and the turn is guilty. This is not a town lock. You baited a new player that didn’t know what he was doing to draw a mislynch

Lowkey sus of the fact that no one is defending RT here.

and yet, the whole premise of super Mario is that you platform constantly to save princes peach.

*princess peach

aka Mario’s beloved princess

I’m not sure what Pie is at so I want to wait for a vote count

Literally just flip through the thread bruh

I think Pie is at 2 at the moment…

So VTL Pie to claim test

Anyways back to work

Like I wonder if the scum team fucked up and killed Lunatic.

if that’s the case there may not be a survivor as I initially thought…

cause having two ways in which scum can get an extra NK feels tailored to help them. They save town too, but we’re in odds so protectives aren’t as impactful compared to evens. I think the fact that they can save townies is designed to counter the fact that they can give scum an extra NK

But then a 9v2 feels really unfair is scum can’t get those extra kills basically for free…

so maybe there is just a survivor. I guess with those extra kills there’s greater odds that they hit said survivor

RationalTheist- 2/5- RF, iLikePie5

Pie - 4/5 - Whiteflame, Casey, Mharm, Supa

Go ahead and vote Pie, then unvote.

NOBODY ELSE CAST THE VOTE BUT RT.

Also, I no longer scumread RT. I kinda townread him, actually.

1. I am suspicious of that fact that no one is defending him here.
2. What’s the point of claiming Chrono Trigger if he planned on stealing someone’s role for a fake claim? He’d be limiting his justifications.
3. Stealing Lunatic’s role is bad if he knew Lunatic was in a chat with someone else, since Lunatic could’ve given said other person information
4. [REDACTED]
5. [REDACTED]

if RT is scum, then the only possible teammate here is Whiteflame, who I townread.