Retro Mafia - DP4

Vader should still confirm in his own words.

That said, we have the outline of everyone's actions.

Hi everyone. I'm requesting a sub out at this point. Unfortunately my August became swamped with Q2 wrap ups and a busy weekend for the new few. Rarely have to play so I will be subbing out

David is replacing supa

Needless to say I am very salty about the lynch.

VTL Rex

@Rex - I'm tunneling you the rest of this game!

Full claim

1x absorber. The justification is that in the game Space Invaders I'm always under attack from alien misses and have temporary shields that can absorb some shots before collapsing.

This shot was used on NP2 on Pie.

Dude REF is confirmed. He’s the only investigative role. You need to unvote him and actually read. You got lynched with your other slot cause you were scummy af

Full claim

1x absorber. The justification is that in the game Space Invaders I'm always under attack from alien misses and have temporary shields that can absorb some shots before collapsing.

This shot was used on NP2 on Pie.

So you absorbed a role NP1 and then used that role on Pie? Is the absorption 1x, or is using the abilities you absorb 1x?

Was it a protective role?

Full claim

1x absorber. The justification is that in the game Space Invaders I'm always under attack from alien misses and have temporary shields that can absorb some shots before collapsing.

This shot was used on NP2 on Pie.

So you absorbed a role NP1 and then used that role on Pie? Is the absorption 1x, or is using the abilities you absorb 1x?

Was it a protective role?

Needless to say I am very salty about the lynch.

Tbh fair. You were acting scummy but I was also tunneling hard that DP.

unvote

scummy af is literally my meta.

Doesn’t explain how he knew Rex’s NP1 night action and visited him the following night, by Rex’s own confirmation. I understand that the claim itself isn’t accurate to this specific game, and I was sussing him myself for his claim, but he’s also hardly alone in having a pseudo-CC on the table.

If he’s scum, then there are probably ways he can know. I acknowledge he’s in a pseudo-CC, but he’s in a pseudo-CC with the most townie player for me in REF. Between you and Casey there’s a pseudo-CC and between you and Vader there’s a pseudo-CC based on everything you’ve said.

I had enough basis for townreading him onto that point. The Mario claim and behavior were the biggest parts of that - played with him several times as scum and I saw no indication of anything after he recruited me. The claim of the RB was the only thing that made me second-guess what was still one of my stronger townreads at the time.

Fair enough, but it’s still awfully convenient, especially combined with everything you’ve said.

I absorbed his roles, yes. I had access to only those roles he had not used, so the RB was off the table by the time I got it.

Is there a reason you haven’t fully stated what else you got? Because at that point, you’re effectively claiming that Luna had a JOAT, and so you’re a JOAT, but Mharman is a flipped JOAT.

I do know why he’s flipless: my role. I said I was surprised by it because the flipless aspect wasn’t described in my PM. I asked Mikal after the fact and it was confirmed that my role was responsible.

So why’d you say earlier that you didn’t know why he was flipless?

I don’t know why you’re talking about believing Mharman’s role. We have his flip. He had a 1X Doc, plus a 1X Healer, though we still don’t know what that applies to. And, again, that’s pseudo-CC on two different fronts: protective and role blocking. Unless you believe both Ragnar and I are faking our roles, both apply to Casey’s claim.

I meant that there’s a pseudo-CC between Casey and Mharman, but Mharman’s was only 1x and Casey’s had the negative utility attached to it as well. Ragnar’s isn’t a P-CC against Casey imo. But you are right that you’re both ‘aligned’ in that sense.

I’ve already stated why in large part in my reasons for townreading Ragnar, which are all reasons for me to back his view. Aspects of Casey’s story don’t line up with what I’m hearing from Ragnar either, though I’ll have to come back to that later. I would like to understand why you’re townreading Casey.

I genuinely wasn’t townreading her going into today, she was in my POE, but everything that’s come out against her seems too good to be true. Not to mention it relies a massive part on if I believe you or not, which I frankly don’t at the moment.

I'll admit my claim is sketchy, but chew Mikal out for bastard modding. I have no idea why he didn't just make me OoT. Mikal said I am "Zelda as a whole", but it seems like I am the only person who is like that. My PM even has the release year in it, so what the fuck Mikal.

It’s not bastard modding if the claim is just a fake claim.

I'll admit my claim is sketchy, but chew Mikal out for bastard modding. I have no idea why he didn't just make me OoT. Mikal said I am "Zelda as a whole", but it seems like I am the only person who is like that. My PM even has the release year in it, so what the fuck Mikal.

It’s not bastard modding if the claim is just a fake claim.

Even if you think my tracker role is a soft CC, my PGO isn't and Mharman's role directly confirms mine.

So you’re saying you’re a JOAT too? Mharman is a confirmed JOAT. Whiteflame is basically saying that Luna was a JOAT as well. I don’t see how you buy that. If you’re telling the truth, then WF should be scum from your POV along with Ragnar probably at a minimum.

Also, you still haven’t answered my question about why you townread WF.

1x absorber. The justification is that in the game Space Invaders I'm always under attack from alien misses and have temporary shields that can absorb some shots before collapsing.

This shot was used on NP2 on Pie.

I know you're filling in for Vader, and are stuck with the hand he dealt you; which includes what he communicated over Discord... But my understanding of the role Absorber, is that it absorbs active roles which target it... So what exactly did Pie (who is verified Popular) target you with that you could absorb?

If he’s scum, then there are probably ways he can know. I acknowledge he’s in a pseudo-CC, but he’s in a pseudo-CC with the most townie player for me in REF. Between you and Casey there’s a pseudo-CC and between you and Vader there’s a pseudo-CC based on everything you’ve said.

My point was that there are multiple pseudo-CCs on the table. In fact, there’s a lot of odd with the roles that are out there, but I happen to know that several of them are real based on the flips and the specific info I have access to. I know there are numerous pseudo-CCs in play and, as I’ll get to in a bit, multiple town JOATs as well. That set me off when I learned of it, too, so I get why it would have you on edge, but if every individual pseudo-CC and instance of a JOAT is going to do that, then you are going to have way too many people to sus. At this point, that list would include at least four of the remaining players. But there’s a difference between having some pseudo-CCs where a single role in a JOAT aligns with another in a different JOAT and having a multi-use role be fill a very similar niche to multiple JOAT roles.

Fair enough, but it’s still awfully convenient, especially combined with everything you’ve said.

I don’t understand, what’s convenient here? That I had a townread on someone for other reasons than one element of their claim?

And yes, since David full claimed what he did, I’ll out my role:

I’m Mario. I am a JOAT. My roles are:

Super Mushroom: essentially an extra life, functions like a BP with me surviving an NK (used NP2).

Power Star: immune to night actions that are not the NK (still have this).

Fire Flower: this is the mafia-specific RB.

So why’d you say earlier that you didn’t know why he was flipless?

I didn’t want to reveal my hand last DP. I’ve been clear in this one that I know the reason. I was straight with both Ragnar and Mharman about it.

Not to mention it relies a massive part on if I believe you or not, which I frankly don’t at the moment.

Let’s tackle this now. If you think I’ve simultaneously manipulated at least four people (possibly five if you buy that no one who has claimed to Mason me is my scum partner) in different chats, I’m deeply flattered. That would be my best game of all time. If you think I would then try, with a tremendous amount of insight into every other player, to claim this specific role with more pseudo-CCs and a JOAT flipped already, that would certainly be a choice. Both would obviously be sussed, and it’s much harder to draw attention to other instances of them when I’m engaging in them myself. And the only person who could realistically be my scum partner would be Ragnar at this point, who I have openly stated I had plans with during the previous two NPs, essentially tying us together.

If you want to believe all of that is true, I don’t know what to tell you. It’s a mix of some incredible behavioral play across multiple Mason chats and some really strange choices that draw attention to me and the person you’d have to think is my partner for no reason.

Going to be on and off flights for the next 6-7 hours, but I’ll check in during my layover if I have time.

Tbh fair. You were acting scummy but I was also tunneling hard that DP.

fair. We all have tunnel issues

I know you're filling in for Vader, and are stuck with the hand he dealt you; which includes what he communicated over Discord... But my understanding of the role Absorber, is that it absorbs active roles which target it... So what exactly did Pie (who is verified Popular) target you with that you could absorb?

Truth be told I am not quite certain as I don’t fully understand the notes. I’m assuming he may have thought that the absorber role is a doctor type role and he’d absorb the NK. But again this is how I’m reading the notes.

The notes don’t make much sense and I’m assuming it was due to an error in understand his role

Full claim

1x absorber. The justification is that in the game Space Invaders I'm always under attack from alien misses and have temporary shields that can absorb some shots before collapsing. 

This shot was used on NP2 on Pie. 

Okay, you need to explain how this works. I did some research and normally, this is a passive role based on MafiaScum and MafiaUniverse. Are you saying it’s an active role? And if so how does it work?

Like you select a person’s role to absorb in the night? And you chose me? Why me? Why not Luna who was dead so you can see what their role is. I get that Supa made the decision, but if there’s anything that you know, you need to say it ASAP.

Well, this is my real claim. Do you think I am faking my claim, and if so, is it my character or role claim, or both? Secondly WF already touched on this, but I can hardly be considered a JOAT and there are already like 4 JOATs in play. You can say I am CCing Rex, but I'm town, so maybe Mikal just wanted an extra tracker *shrug*. WF is a much worse mafia player than he is as town, and I think if WF has endured 4 DPs of scrutiny and multiple Mason PMs, hes town. I masoned he because I wanted a PM with him.

My point was that there are multiple pseudo-CCs on the table. In fact, there’s a lot of odd with the roles that are out there, but I happen to know that several of them are real based on the flips and the specific info I have access to. I know there are numerous pseudo-CCs in play and, as I’ll get to in a bit, multiple town JOATs as well. That set me off when I learned of it, too, so I get why it would have you on edge, but if every individual pseudo-CC and instance of a JOAT is going to do that, then you are going to have way too many people to sus. At this point, that list would include at least four of the remaining players. But there’s a difference between having some pseudo-CCs where a single role in a JOAT aligns with another in a different JOAT and having a multi-use role be fill a very similar niche to multiple JOAT roles.

I don’t think you’re understanding my argument. You are also in my POE. I don’t buy there being multiple JOATs, and I don’t buy there being multiple Trackers. The only factual pieces of info I have are:

1) You are claiming Luna was a JOAT when we have a confirmed JOAT in the form of Mharman.

2) REF is a Tracker and Earth is also claiming he’s a Tracker.

3) You are in a P-CC with Casey

4) You are in a P-CC with Vader

5) We are in MYLO/LYLO

I don’t understand, what’s convenient here? That I had a townread on someone for other reasons than one element of their claim?

Yes actually. A Mafia specific Roleblock and Asceticizer would be a hard pill for me to swallow. Now behavior is a different issue, but mafia specific Roleblocker would be sending massive alarm bells in my head.

And yes, since David full claimed what he did, I’ll out my role:

I’m Mario. I am a JOAT. My roles are:

Super Mushroom: essentially an extra life, functions like a BP with me surviving an NK (used NP2).

Power Star: immune to night actions that are not the NK (still have this).

Fire Flower: this is the mafia-specific RB.

I didn’t want to reveal my hand last DP. I’ve been clear in this one that I know the reason. I was straight with both Ragnar and Mharman about it.

And one of them is dead while the other one could be your partner since he’s all buddy buddy with you.

Let’s tackle this now. If you think I’ve simultaneously manipulated at least four people (possibly five if you buy that no one who has claimed to Mason me is my scum partner) in different chats, I’m deeply flattered. That would be my best game of all time. If you think I would then try, with a tremendous amount of insight into every other player, to claim this specific role with more pseudo-CCs and a JOAT flipped already, that would certainly be a choice. Both would obviously be sussed, and it’s much harder to draw attention to other instances of them when I’m engaging in them myself. And the only person who could realistically be my scum partner would be Ragnar at this point, who I have openly stated I had plans with during the previous two NPs, essentially tying us together.

This entire argument is WIFOM. Yes Ragnar could be your partner, but so could Earth. So could Vader. If you’re town, what reason do you have to townread Ragnar? For claiming a role can easily be disproven? Casey did the same thing as well. You can’t go both ways.

If you want to believe all of that is true, I don’t know what to tell you. It’s a mix of some incredible behavioral play across multiple Mason chats and some really strange choices that draw attention to me and the person you’d have to think is my partner for no reason.

It’s MYLO/LYLO, this doesn’t mean anything. And I know full well that you’re capable of this much manipulation. You’re probably the only one left who can do it

I’m about to leave on my flight, so I don’t have time to respond to all of this at present. I’ll note, then, that I made a claim about what my role was that pseudo-CC’d David’s, then claimed as well that Luna had a role that I now have that pseudo-CC’s Casey, both claims I made after I’d been made aware of their claims and roles. If you want to believe that I’d do that and simultaneously be capable of maintaining discussion with five different people, none of whom have scumread me, then there’s nothing I could say that would convince you. If I’m in your POE at this point, then you should be mistrusting everything coming from my connections, which also means that you’re currently sussing, at minimum, Vader, Ragnar, Earth and me. And if you think I’m partnering with anyone but Ragnar, then you’d have to somehow believe I gaslit him into a strategy that prevented the NK NP2.

Also, since when are we at MYLO/LYLO? There are 7 players left. Wouldn’t that mean we’re assuming either three scum or two scum with a TP that would choose to win with scum?

Well, this is my real claim. Do you think I am faking my claim, and if so, is it my character or role claim, or both?

I don’t know, you tell me. I’ve already explained that Lens of Truth doesn’t make much sense for a Tracker. Master Sword definitely doesn’t make much sense for a PGO.

Secondly WF already touched on this, but I can hardly be considered a JOAT and there are already like 4 JOATs in play.

But you’re townreading someone who says they’re now a JOAT, when there’s already a JOAT that’s dead and is town (Mharman). Let’s say you’re not a JOAT, because you only have 2 abilities. Fine. That means there are still 2 JOATs. And you’re choosing to believe that?

You can say I am CCing Rex, but I'm town, so maybe Mikal just wanted an extra tracker *shrug*.

And he wanted 2 JOATs in the game on top of that. Why not just give everyone a Vig at point right? You have to draw a line at some point.

WF is a much worse mafia player than he is as town,

That is not true at all. And your post in DP1 even said that lol

and I think if WF has endured 4 DPs of scrutiny and multiple Mason PMs, hes town. I masoned he because I wanted a PM with him.

Not because you townread you?

If I’m in your POE at this point, then you should be mistrusting everything coming from my connections, which also means that you’re currently sussing, at minimum, Vader, Ragnar, Earth and me. And if you think I’m partnering with anyone but Ragnar, then you’d have to somehow believe I gaslit him into a strategy that prevented the NK NP2.

Like I said, I sus everyone at this point except REF. Some I obviously sus more than others

Also, since when are we at MYLO/LYLO? There are 7 players left. Wouldn’t that mean we’re assuming either three scum or two scum with a TP that would choose to win with scum?

I was always running under the assumption that there could be 2 scum and a TP who could joint win. Thats been the case since DP1

That means there are still 2 JOATs

Probably a good time for me to come clean. I passed misinformation to Casey (who acted sus in the Mason chat) to try to avoid WF getting NKed (as another player put it, he's not just town, he's the whole city).

I'm also a JOAT, leveraging three popular Pokémon AKA pocket monsters.

1. Pikachu = lightening rod
2. Squirtle = deflect (except killing actions
3. Bulbasaur = roleblock

DP1 I used lightening rod on both whiteflame and then Casey. Both were told at the time, both have implicitly verified this (unless I'm multi accounting with literally every other player in the game to know that no one would target them with anything at all...).

DP2 I coordinated with Magic through whiteflame, to use a deflect allowing them to self-doctor (this was the one night no one died; apparently whiteflame also used an ability on himself, so it could be either).

DP3 I roleblocked Casey for being sus (in case they were town, I suggested they waive their final action to save for when we had more information; as they are not town read, there was almost zero risk of them being NKed). My action was successful, and I've confirmed with our host that two roleblockers would cancel each other out both failing (I bring this up because they claim their RB of me failed, yet somehow mine on them was a success).

As a reminder, the theory that I'm scum, and my scum buddy motivated me, but I told everyone instead of just killing two people...

Well, I'll again let RDJ explain: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6WHBO_Qc-Q

I also got the 95k score in the contest (I lucked out by playing at a time when hackers were not on, subsequent tries had snakes noclipping and killing me with ease). If anyone needs it, I can pass the screenshot through mason chat. This isn't the winning one, but I suspect since no ones outed getting it yet, that it didn't go to town.

...

Just going to straight up rubber stamp everything Ragnar said above. I was dumb and kept forgetting that he hadn’t given away his full claim, hence I kept pointing to pseudo-CCs that weren’t there. That’s on me.

Like I said, I sus everyone at this point except REF. Some I obviously sus more than others

So with Ragnar’s full claim on the table, there are now three claimed JOATs and a confirmed one. At least one of us has to be telling the truth, and based on everything I know about both of them, they are.

Ragnar had no end of opportunities to kill Mharman if he chose. He knew exactly who Mharman would use his Doc on (him), and still the NK did not go through. Mharman was clearly a priority target for the NK, so he was likely right to protect himself. And as Ragnar surmised, I used my own protective role at the same time. It’s up to you whether you buy that story, but either Ragnar and I are both town or we’re both scum and this very elaborate story of NP2 actions is just made up entirely. Your choice on that front.

And speaking of other JOATs, one thing I haven’t mentioned yet is that Healer role Mharman had. He chose to use it NP3 on Rex, I imagine in part because he figured he’d be the target, but also because he knew town wasn’t using a role that would inflict an injury. The only one that could have? Earth’s PGO, which injures prior to killing. Maybe scum have access to a role that does something similar, but it’s striking that they haven’t employed it yet. Mharman’s role confirms the existence of some role that injures, and Earth’s PGO is the only one on the table.

I was always running under the assumption that there could be 2 scum and a TP who could joint win. Thats been the case since DP1

I got that, though I’m not functioning under that assumption. If it is true, though, that makes the fact that there wasn’t an NK NP2 all the more important. Scum wouldn’t have passed on an NP when that could have led to the end of the game right there, so something prevented it, whether that’s Casey’s action, Ragnar’s, Mharman’s or mine. At least two of those have to have been a factor.

On vaca all week. Will read through tonight and get a vote count.

I have to sus Pie for this DP. I'm not sure what it is, but his logic just seems poor this DP. No reads, and his logic about the JOAT claims are just poor.