Ranger’s Apprentice Mafia Endgame

Why would a strongman self-visit - that was what I found persuasive about it.

I'm confused, how can Mharman's power self visit. Someone had to reflect his power back at him for Thoth's tracking results to be correct, right? Who did you think did that?

2. Why didn't anyone ask Lunatic if he was a 1x or 2x dreamer? RT even used his Asceticizer on Lunatic NP2, I assume to protect him if he had a second dream to spend?

I didn't want to know. If scum thought he had more than one shot as a dreamer they might NK him and confirm POE for us. Better to let them overestimate the threat he posed and kill someone who had already outlived his usefulness instead of a better role that still had utility. If he did have extra shots then best not to call attention to it because it would draw the NK. One thing I dislike about the meta here is overclaiming. There's information that can hurt scum if you withhold it or misrepresent it. There's already an information asymmetry at play, you don't have to give them even more to work on.

1. Why is it bad for a doctor to waive NP1? I know people scumread it but why. What i looked up seemed to indicate doctors should play conservatively.

by playing conservatively I’m sure it means not outright claiming to give away your role. Generally doctors are kind of town confirmed you weren’t in this one mainly due to dreamer results.

but if you have an every night role you should use it, even if you think your wrong. In the off chance you protect correctly and stop the night kill you 1. Have a high chance at catching scum if there was a watcher or tracker who also saw the visit, 2 extend the game for town if you correctly protect a kill, basically making up for a mislynch. Mafia getting a kill protected against is usually devastating to them.

2. Why didn't anyone ask Lunatic if he was a 1x or 2x dreamer? RT even used his Asceticizer on Lunatic NP2, I assume to protect him if he had a second dream to spend? 

rex did ask, I think a lot of people just glossed over it and my subsequent answer.

rex did ask, I think a lot of people just glossed over it and my subsequent answer.

When? Jeez this game was so convoluted I kept forgetting who had claimed what and what happened. When I roleblocked you I kind of hesitated because of the possibility of blocking a dreamer result and went through with it anyway.

Btw, Thoth's reaction to me revealing my night action at the beginning of DP3 made me think of this:

waiving usually isn’t a good idea cause you never know when you’re gonna die and lose your night actions.

that being said, in this game it actually kinda made things hard for me in NP3; I basically had to just pray Wryly: Protect Rex + Rex: Roleblock Thoth didn’t happen.

2. Why didn't anyone ask Lunatic if he was a 1x or 2x dreamer? RT even used his Asceticizer on Lunatic NP2, I assume to protect him if he had a second dream to spend?

I didn't want to know. If scum thought he had more than one shot as a dreamer they might NK him and confirm POE for us. Better to let them overestimate the threat he posed and kill someone who had already outlived his usefulness instead of a better role that still had utility. If he did have extra shots then best not to call attention to it because it would draw the NK. One thing I dislike about the meta here is overclaiming. There's information that can hurt scum if you withhold it or misrepresent it. There's already an information asymmetry at play, you don't have to give them even more to work on.

Lol duh. Ty.

So when you targeted Luna you were also risking blocking a second dream

Edit: hadn't read your above post yet

I have some noob questions if anyone doesn't mind.

1. Why is it bad for a doctor to waive NP1? I know people scumread it but why. What i looked up seemed to indicate doctors should play conservatively.

Because it’s a massive advantage to town if you stop a NK. Plus, it helps ensure that townie players stay in the game.

2. Why didn't anyone ask Lunatic if he was a 1x or 2x dreamer? RT even used his Asceticizer on Lunatic NP2, I assume to protect him if he had a second dream to spend? 

Usually it’s anti-town to ask. Scum want to know if it’s X-shot or perma. If perma, they have to keep wasting actions on Luna or kill him outright. It limits the actions they can take which helps town determine what likely happened in the night.

3. Why did Magic try to float the argument that Pie wouldn't put a Hider in a 9 player game?

Because it would mean town would get one less lynch. Town’s main weapon is the lynch. If 2 townies died in one night, then POE would be harder to conduct.

I mean if I had unlimited shots waiving would be dumb and scummy, but as a 2x doc should my SOP really be to take a shot in the dark NP1.

that being said, in this game it actually kinda made things hard for me in NP3; I basically had to just pray Wryly: Protect Rex + Rex: Roleblock Thoth didn’t happen.

Didn't have to pray too hard, I was 2x and didn't have any shots left going into NP3.

Edit - wait, could Wryly protect me from dying after targeting scum? The thought never occurred to me.

I mean if I had unlimited shots waiving would be dumb and scummy, but as a 2x doc should my SOP really be to take a shot in the dark NP1. 

its that or dying after you claim. Or your action being manipulated by scum after they know.

Didn't have to pray too hard, I was 2x and didn't have any shots left going into NP3.

Edit - wait, could Wryly protect me from dying after targeting scum? The thought never occurred to me.

Yes she could’ve

Didn't have to pray too hard, I was 2x and didn't have any shots left going into NP3.

I had no way of knowing if you were telling the truth about 2x... or if Lunatic was telling the truth about 1x. So I called the NP3 actions prepared for the worst.

Didn't have to pray too hard, I was 2x and didn't have any shots left going into NP3.

I had no way of knowing if you were telling the truth about 2x... or if Lunatic was telling the truth about 1x. So I called the NP3 actions prepared for the worst.

You're almost as paranoid as I am! And I did actually consider lying about my x-shot but decided that the anti-town ramifications were too steep.

I'll submit the result

Huh

Did it surprise you? Actually made sense to me, avg mafia rating was lower than avg town rating, so a mafia win meant a big jump. Also only 2 mafia players instead of 3, so each of them got a larger share of the elo won.

Also, the fact that you responded to a lot of people in one post was hard to follow for me, and I’m sure for other people. I’m surprised people were following along. I won’t let it slide though, so be warned.

I wanted to avoid unneeded posts, but, upon reflection, I suppose there's no risk of running out of posts. I also did not want people to think that I was ignoring something in case I responded to something else in an earlier post.

Thoth isn’t really a noob; he’s played countless games of mafia before.

Countless, not exactly. Few enough to count on two hands between here and my Discord playgroup, and, adding games I've played in real life, e.g., Blood on the Clocktower, I could probably account for all of them if I could count with my toes. That is, unless you count Town of Salem and the Mafia map from the Starcraft 2 arcade, which are so full of kids that they probably serve as negative experience.

Thoth saw Mharman visit himself during NP1. How would this be possible. Let’s say Mharman did use the Strongman, then the Tracker would see him kill Whiteflame. Let’s say he waived; then he can’t be tracked. Let’s look at what the townies did. RT waived and REF blocked WF. There is not a role that exists that can create a result that Thoth saw. Redirector doesn’t work. Neither does Bus Driver, or Deflector.

I couldn't imagine any way it could have happened either, but I had heard that you like to use custom roles and I had my fingers crossed that Lunatic would buy my, "I'm clueless, but it definitely happened", explanation. The self-visit claim was Magic's idea. I did not like it, but he was insistent and my objections to that one never got vocal, although some of my other disagreements with him did.

I'm confused, how can Mharman's power self visit. Someone had to reflect his power back at him for Thoth's tracking results to be correct, right? Who did you think did that?

He never self-visited, and, if he had, the night action list shows that I would not have seen it. That claim was unadultered, military-grade, industrial-strength bullshit. I kinda thought that would go without saying.

I'm aware. That post was in response to what Lunatic said:

I chalked up the self visit to pie having odd mechanics about how roles and visits work, but generally understood that mafia tend to self visit more than town.

https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/sign-ups/posts/v/choose-a-theme---mafia-sign-ups

Yes yes I saw

I didn't even realize there were leaderboards for Mafia what

The self-visit claim was Magic's idea. I did not like it, but he was insistent and my objections to that one never got vocal, although some of my other disagreements with him did.

Why was he so insistent?

Also why did you guys decide you should straightclaim Gilan but fake claim Erak?

THEN WHY ARENT YOU SIGNING UP REEE *smashes keyboard*

Why was he so insistent?

He wanted me to claim that I saw something that indicated that my results had been tampered with, hence why I did not claim immediately, and by claiming I Tracked him, nobody would have information to the contrary, unless perhaps RT Asceticized Magic. I told Magic that, if I were Tracker and I knew that I had been interfered with, I should have claimed this ASAP to let town know there is a role that can tamper with information. He replied that a Tracker would have good reason to hide their role so they could get more usefulness out of it. I said in the day thread that I had been debating with myself whether or not to claim, then claimed, and I believe nobody pressured me about it.

Also why did you guys decide you should straightclaim Gilan but fake claim Erak?

Magic thought that Erak was the best fit for his Universal Backup fake-claim because of the justification that Erak took over as Oberjarl after the previous one died.

Thoth, as everyone has already said, you played a really good game. Staying off of the wagons is always something you want to do as scum. I thought you tried just enough to avoid seeming like a try hard.

Good game everyone. Thoth you were definitely the MVP of the game.

I'm not going to be too hard on Luna because I originally was also scumreading Wryly, mainly because Thoth's scum play was just that good.

Y'all are too kind. My strategy was to say what I thought I would as town, then cut out anything likely to hurt us and add what I thought could move town in the direction we wanted. Easier said than done, I suppose. Much, maybe most, of the analysis I gave was sincere, even if inconsequential, because, as town, I would have said everything that I thought had any chance of being useful in hopes that it might lead someone to catching something I missed. That also meant that most of what I said did not advance our interests and maybe harmed them, but I figured that, if I kept my contribution volume high enough, I could hide scumminess in the margins.

Ya they were false and misleading/redirecting, which town sadly fell for

Sadly... for them.

I was pissed that I was killed because I thought they would kill Luna and did a lot of iso reading in the NP.

Iso reading?

basicslly speculation on why I was the night kill instead of Rex, I had figured that Rex would have been killed last night and even mentioned it to pie but I was hoping it would have been me because Rex was technically more confirmed than me. It ended up not even being an issue no one tried to spin me as scum in the end really.

I thought you both seemed town-confirmed enough that I never factored this in.