Was the Rumbling in Attack on Titan ethically justified?

Started by Savant ·

!!! Spoilers for attack on Titan below !!!


In Attack on Titan, the Rumbling was a cataclysmic event caused when Eren Yeager sent Karl Fritz's Wall Titans marching across the earth in an attempt to destroy all life outside of Paradis Island. His stated motivation was to protect the island from the rest of the world, which had very recently declared war on Paradis Island and considered its residents to be "devils."

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Arguments for (2)

Yes, it was

My understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) is that, when he made contact with Historia's hand, Eren saw all possible futures and concluded there was no other way to successfully avert the extermination of his own people. Aside from the fear of Eldians, Paradis was sitting atop strategically valuable land that everyone wanted, and Paradis was in no position to defend itself by conventional means. A "partial rumbling", likewise, would forever harden the resolve of the survivors to find a way to eliminate the Eldian threat.


A reasonable understand of self-defense is not utility-based. It is within your rights to fatally shoot ten strangers in order to defend yourself from being murdered if escaping or negotiating your way out of danger isn't a viable option. While one might argue this is really underpinned by an unspoken rule utilitarianism that ceases to make sense when billions of people (though definitely not 5.6 billion people when you consider the technologies that enable a global carrying capacity that large which the Marley that we saw lacked; I'd take the world population c. 1920-1930 as a more reasonable estimate) died to save a couple million at best, I would contest this framing. In real life, few people would choose to let the entire world lynch them if they had a magic button that could kill all humans besides themselves. To the average person, self-preservation is the highest good that can possibly exist since from their own POV the universe in its entirety might as well die with them, and I think only the rare person who, with sound knowledge of their own true character, can honestly say they'd choose to die has a right to say this is the wrong choice to make.

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My understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) is that, when he made contact with Historia's hand, Eren saw all possible futures and concluded there was no other way to successfully avert the extermination of his own people.

He saw the one future, not other futures. And because it was in line with what he wanted it didn't change.


A "partial rumbling", likewise, would forever harden the resolve of the survivors to find a way to eliminate the Eldian threat.

I mean him destroying 80% of the island did just that and it was destroyed later. He foresaw that he would only destroy 80%, so doesn't that just mean his plan has the same problem? He's also got god-like powers and can destroy every military base and control a good chunk of people on the planet. Worst case scenario, he can just take over the world and create a benevolent dictatorship, then reeducate people to not be racist. That's not in line with his view of "freedom," but if his view of freedom says killing 80% of humanity is better than a temporary benevolent dictatorship he can control, I don't think it's ethical.


A reasonable understand of self-defense is not utility-based. It is within your rights to fatally shoot ten strangers in order to defend yourself from being murdered if escaping or negotiating your way out of danger isn't a viable option.

Self-defense gives you right to kill ten strangers who are trying to kill you but not ten innocent strangers. Attacking someone is assuming responsibility for the consequences of that, but innocent people are not assuming similar responsibility. So killing the attackers is not a violation of rights since they have forfeited their rights, but killing innocent people is.


Self-defense is a prima facie right that same way every right is a prima facie right. Do I have the right to go to the bathoom? Yes. Do I have the right to kill innocent people to get to the bathroom? No. Do I have the right to get a job? Yes. Do I have the right to kill innocent people to get a job? No. etc. Self-defense is a prima facie right because when we talk about "self-defense" we typically mean actions that don't violate the rights of others, just like everything that doesn't violate the rights of others is a prima facie right. Eating food is a right cause it doesn't violate the rights of others, but if it does (like cannibalism or something) then it's no longer a right.


We could say utility is not a justification and individual rights are paramount, but a deontologist view seems much more likely to be harsh on Eren since it would say the ends of saving oneself do not justify the means of killing innocent people. See pacifism, which is very deontological.


In real life, few people would choose to let the entire world lynch them if they had a magic button that could kill all humans besides themselves.

Eren's plan did involve him dying and led to some of his friends dying (Sasha, Hange), really he was mostly saving strangers cause he could have escaped with his friends anyway. But he killed more strangers than he saved. (And remember, the "entire world" that's attacking the island is most world governments but not every individual.)


I think only the rare person who, with sound knowledge of their own true character, can honestly say they'd choose to die has a right to say this is the wrong choice to make.

So just pretend that hypothetically, that perfect person exists and makes all the arguments I'm making. How do you engage with those arguments? Because if there's an objectively right answer, then it doesn't matter where the answer comes from. A good argument doesn't suddenly turn into a bad argument because a bad person is making it. A chemist could provide proof a mixture is poisonous and then drink it; they'll die and they're an idiot, but the proof is still valid. However, if you really don't want to engage with someone less than morally perfect making a hypothetical argument, then just imagine it's a hypothetical perfect person making the argument and respond how you would then.

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Self-defense

I dont know the whole context of this, but if someone tries to destroy you, I dont see why you wouldnt be allowed to destroy them.


I didnt yet buy attack on titan manga, so I cant quite judge completely, I am just basing this on context here which said rest of the world declared war on island.

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What complicates this is that Eren was killing a lot of innocent people in order to achieve self-defense. So in order to protect himself from a country full of warmongers, he would basically wipe it off the map including the children there. Which, to be fair, was the most straightforward method of defense, since it wouldn't be easy to pick out just the guilty people. But it does make it more like a weird version of the trolley problem than straightforward self-defense.

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Replying to Savant

If the only way of self-defense was to destroy both guilty and innocents in a specific group, then anyone who prefers own survival would just destroy them. Person who doesnt prefer own survival would just die instead.

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Replying to SatanLucy

Yeah but the question is, is that ethically justified?

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Replying to Savant

Depends on what person considers to be ethically justified. Trolley problem becomes a lot different when you are the one who dies.

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Replying to SatanLucy

Incentives become different, but I don't think what is objectively right or wrong changes. In any case, the people evaluating the problem (us) aren't on the tracks, so it's not too different from standard trolley problems.

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Arguments against (1)

Killed more innocent people than it saved

Assuming that AOT-Earth is about the size of the actual earth, then 80% of humanity (the amount Yeager killed) was about 5.6 billion people. Children are about a quarter of the world population, so even if all the adults outside Paradis were genocidal warmongers, Eren killed about 1.4 billion people. The population of Paradis is about 1.25 million people, which means that at a minimum, Eren killed about a thousand times as many innocent people as he saved.


Now, maybe Eren had a duty to save people on his local island, but people also have duties to not kill innocent people in foreign countries, and if weighing these duties against each other, the most obvious way to do so is by a population count of lives lost vs. saved. Also, I would question the extent to which this duty falls upon a random citizen who isn't the elected leader of their country. If a Norwegian is in a version of the trolley problem where they can direct a trolley to hit a thousand German children rather than a single random Norwegian, is that justified, because they're saving a citizen of their own country? What if the adults in Germany have declared war on Norway? Seems kind of irrelevant if the child wasn't involved in that decision. You could say the children outside Paradis might grow up to be evil, but that's killing based on potential future crimes you can't even be certain of, which is a pretty bad standard for the death penalty. And heck, the kids on Paradis also have a chance of growing up to be evil warmongers.


There were also alternative plans like Armin's proposed "partial rumbling," which may have worked. So the Rumbling was akin to killing a billion children in a foreign country to save a million people who might not have died anyway.

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