Alyssa wrote:
Give me an example of one that isn't then.
You misunderstand. Say the US goes and invades north Korea and we wipe the floor with them. The result of the conquest is ruin. It takes an additional step to then say "Okay lets set up some system of government". Same is true for revolt.
It would happen regardless though; it's not like you could choose not to do that. Nature abhors a vacuum and that's what anarchy is. And who decides what the system of government is? The people with the guns. Did the Japanese 'choose' to change their government until we steamed a bunch of gunships into Edo Bay? After WWII ended, did we meet with them and say 'yeah guys, whatever you think is cool is cool with us'. No. We instituted structural demands that suited our interests at the barrel of a gun. Did Iraq choose to undergo de-Baathification and cut their entire institutional government? No, once again we demanded that of them.
What happens if you don't pay the fine or the tax? Everything is ultimately backed by the barrel of the gun.
Not everything is a life and death issue. Last time I got a speeding ticket I just paid the fine and took a couple days of remedial classes to make sure it didn't end up on my record. I didn't need a threat of violence to get me to cooperate.
This is like saying that slavery isn't ultimately based on violence because it creates a system in which most slaves acquiesce to demands without a fight. It pretends that violence can't be woven into a system. 'Speak softly and carry a big stick' may result in acquiescence without bloodshed, but it implies that if someone doesn't listen you whack them over the head with your big stick - otherwise it doesn't work.
People are allowed to cooperate with the system of government and work towards mutually beneficial ends, believe it or not.
Who decides if it is mutually beneficial? And do people get to opt out if they disagree? Romanticizers of the Antebellum South often romanticized slavery as being 'for their own good' - a mutually beneficial arrangement. The slaves obviously disagreed for the most part, and if they could opt out slavery would quickly collapse. Government simply does not operate on a consent framework - it wouldn't function if it tried to.
one that isn't based on violence doesn't work because anyone can just say 'no'
This kinda implies that everyone's base instinct is to just instinctively reject any kind of authority. Certainly true for some people, but I'd hardly make it an absolute.
Of course it isn't absolute, but it doesn't have to be - if people can opt out the system will destabilize because of things like the free rider problem and the resentment which it causes. It also would accelerate any downward turn into a death spiral because that would cause mass defection.
But those avenues of nonviolence are established by introducing violent tension.
That doesn't really address my point, though. The more avenues of nonviolent reform are added, the less violent the system becomes. Hell, most democratic nations (barring Jan 6th) in the past few decades have regular exchanges of power without violence. You claim that any political system is inherently violent, but violence in recent history is abnormal, not normal.
You act as if this stabilization effect (which does exist) can go on forever. It never has; it always ends in a spectacular orgy of violence. The Peace of Westphalia ended in two World Wars, the Pax Romana ended in the Wandering of Nations, the fall of the Western Jin ended with the Five Barbarians and Sixteen Kingdoms. And each time this happened, the people living in the 'Golden Age' were absolutely shocked by it and thought that the good times would just keep getting better. In fact, we had Fukuyama declaring the 'End of History' using this sort of utopian thinking just a few decades ago only to be proven wildly incorrect by world events. Human lives are brief and these things can move at a glacial pace, so it skews our understanding.
It's a nice idea, but I don't see it bearing out in history very often.
That's odd, because if you compare modern day to a couple centuries ago things are radically different in exactly the way I'm describing. Historically slavery is the norm. Now, slavery is illegal.
There are more slaves alive today than there were back when it was the 'norm'. They largely exist in societies which are still developing, or which don't care about optics - technology eliminated a lot of slavery by reducing the human labor input of many fields of production. And in some places they have been replaced with arrangements which can be even more brutal - migrant agricultural workers, for example, often work in terrible conditions for pay which can't even adequately provide for their food and board, and are treated as more disposable than slaves ever were. That system is also rife with violence and human trafficking, sometimes to the point of literal slavery, as happens in the South East Asian fishing market in which slaves work to create the protein slurry ultimately used to make dogfood for Americans. I mean you can choose to only look at the 'nice' aspects of the present but that's not reality.
Whereas racism was expected historically, now it's frowned upon in most circles (and the circles where it's not are heavily criticized). We've seen similar trends with queer spaces as well.
I think you must live in a very specific middle class white bubble and are mistaking it for the rest of the world. Even in America this isn't true, it especially isn't true in the rest of the world outside 'the West'.
Was all of that trend peaceful? Of course not. But things have become more peaceful over time, as we come to better understand the world we live in and the people who are around us. Misunderstanding breeds fear, and fear breeds violence. We continually better understand the world around us with each passing year, and we continue to see this overall positive trend (despite Trump's best efforts).
I think here you are conflating becoming more liberal/'progressive' with peace. You are also being quite blinkered about it. As people have grown to 'understand the world around us' with each passing year we've had lockstep support from the American political class for a literal genocide playing out in 4K in Gaza in which women and children were routinely butchered in their thousands. There was widespread cultural support for an assassin who shot a corporate executive, himself a man who had made a career out of nonchalantly murdering innocent people via spreadsheet. I think people in America are numb to suffering and feel powerless more than anything else, they are not more morally upright or 'kinder'.