Resolved: The United Kingdom should rejoin the European Union.

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Pro Instigator Opens first Tie
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1½
Rating
1525
Debates
4
Win rate
87.50%
Con Contender Tie
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1½
Rating
1509
Debates
3
Win rate
50.00%
Verdict It's a tie
whiteflame Pro
1½
Savant Con
1½

After 3 votes (1 tie) — even split

Burden of proof

Pro

Pro needs to argue that it is better for the UK to rejoin the EU; Con needs to show that it is better to have the status quo and for the UK to remain outside the EU.

Definitions

European Union
a political and economic union of 27 member states located primarily in Europe, operating a unique single market that allows for the free movement of goods, capital, services, and people among its members.
Rejoin
return to (a companion, organization, or route that one has left).
Pro needs to argue that it is better for the UK to rejoin; Con needs to show that it is better to have the status quo and for the UK to remain outside the EU.

Round 1

1 of 3
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whiteflame Global Moderator
Pro #1

Excited to finally debate with you, Savant!


Background

The United Kingdom (UK) became a part of the European Union (EU) in 1973, in part to avoid economic decline. The UK served many important roles for the EU, including providing its member nations more global reach and pushing for free trade. During this time, the UK had specific opt-outs from certain EU requirements, including adoption of the Euro as their currency and maintaining its own border controls.

In 2016, the Brexit referendum vote was held in the UK where a majority (51.9%) of the population opted to leave the EU. The UK fully departed the EU over the course of the next 4 years, negotiating trade deals with the EU post-exit. As a result, the UK became a “third country,” its relationship with the EU now governed by the EU-UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement (TCA).


Harms

The decision to dissolve this relationship came with a multitude of harms to those in the UK.

The most devastating of these have been economic. Using a combination of micro and macro economic data, a recent study found that leaving the EU cost the UK 6-8% of GDP per capita over the past 5 years. This came in part as a result of a variety of specific impacts, with investments into the UK dropping by 12-18%, employment down 0.5% per year (resulting in a 3-4% reduction in employment growth), and total factor productivity (TFP) growth down by a similar amount. British exports have come down by a fifth, reaching the point that they are behind every single other G7 nation at a fifth of what they were before Brexit. 14% of UK companies gave up selling to the EU due to steep costs and bureaucracy. Customs paperwork alone adds $10 billion dollars a year for exporters costs.

The TCA does not address these harms. Non-tariff measures (NTMs) are huge factors, taking the form of “regulations, standards, technical requirements, licensing requirements, and quotas. They can affect trade in various ways. For example, sanitary and health standards may boost consumer demand, while at the same time increasing the cost of production. This may lead to either an increase or reduction in trade, depending on which effect is stronger.” This has led to huge declines in the variety of products being exported from the UK to the EU, partially explaining the drop-off in exports.

The ground level effects are staggering. A full third of the increased cost of food per household between 2019 and 2023 can be attributed solely to Brexit, adding hundreds of pounds to the cost of groceries for every family. Cost of living for the average household increased by £870 by 2022, and real wages have fallen by an estimated £470. By 2024, the decline in economic growth equated to a cost of £1,000 per household.

Brexit also had a huge impact on migration. Net migration has ballooned in the years after the referendum, but how those numbers break down is where the trouble comes in. Net migration of EU citizens fell in that period, so the vast majority of immigration came from asylum seekers, most of whom entered the country via human traffickers. This is particularly evident in small boat crossings, which increased from 299 to 46,000 between 2018 and 2022.

These impacts are a consequence of Brexit. The UK lost its access to real-time data through EU security databases like SIS II, losing essential capacity for intelligence-led policing and, as a result, making it much more difficult to intercept traffickers at UK borders. Their efforts to shut down legal routes to entry make the illegal backdoor tactics used by traffickers essential for anyone who wants to enter the UK, and the migrants’ reliance on traffickers mean abuses don’t get reported. And since the UK isn’t bound by the EU’s anti-trafficking directive, the UK is effectively creating a pocket of Europe where modern slavery is alive and thriving.


Framework

Any policy direction for the UK should be directed based on what does the greatest good for the most people, with the greatest impacts being those affecting the UK and its citizens directly. As such, my value will be Quality of Life. The emphasis will be on how policy will affect livelihoods within the UK and for those who would become UK citizens.

Model

Simply put, the UK should rejoin the EU. This would not happen overnight, but I’m not going to establish a specific timetable. The two parties would negotiate terms and there would be an agreement for the UK to rejoin under Article 49 of the Treaty of the European Union. While this would mostly just mean a return to form, e.g. meeting the Copenhagen criteria of political stability, economic viability and legal alignment, I acknowledge that doing so would come with concessions from England since they no longer command the veto power they had. Those concessions would be as follows:

  1. Joining the Schengen area and, thus, allowing passport-free movement from other EU countries to the UK.
  2. Committing to joining the rest of the eurozone in adopting the euro as their primary currency, which would require phasing out the Pound Sterling as their currency.


Advantage 1: Economic Boons

The UK regains full access to the EU market of 27 countries. No more trade barriers, no extra costs, no paperwork. That accounts for 41% of UK exports and 51% of imports. That combined with restoring its foreign investments will yield substantial economic growth for the UK. It would also get access to a number of global trade agreements through the EU.

  1. Eliminating NTMs imposed by the TCA, which would correct an estimated loss of 20-42% of export product variety, chiefly affecting small, less diversified firms that can no longer trade with the EU.
  2. Barriers to investment will also disappear, restoring access to the estimated 12-18% of total investments not garnered as a result of Brexit.
  3. Car companies could bounce back. The TCA eliminated most tariffs, but stipulations on the “rules of origin,” which require a vehicle’s parts to largely originate in the UK or EU in order to qualify for trade without tariffs, are difficult to uphold, particularly with electric cars where batteries often come from China. And that threshold is rising, forcing carmakers to consolidate, reducing production and increasing costs for consumers. Only by rejoining the EU is this alleviated.
  4. UK businesses would have seamless access to EU supply chains. Higher costs, widespread among businesses as a result of higher supply chain costs, would quickly be addressed.


Advantage 2: Influence and Security

The UK has lost substantial global and regional influence that it stands to regain through EU membership. This means helping steer EU policy on trade, digital regulation, and climate change. They’re often affected by EU product standards anyway, particularly by General Product Safety Regulations, the CE Mark (health, safety and environmental protection standard) and its disjoints with the UKCA Mark, all resulting in greater costs for UK businesses in terms of time, money and expertise that many small companies do not have. Rejoining the EU would lead to an alignment of these standards and how they’re applied, removing the need for these expensive add-ons. This would also give the UK more heft globally, wielding the weight of the entire EU in trade negotiations so that they don’t have to sacrifice the wellbeing of their farmers and businesses to get trade deals. Just looking at how Brexit has affected the deals the UK has already made with CPTPP, Australia and New Zealand, the UK could recoup as much as £100 billion per year and 4% of their GDP

The EU facilitates extensive data-sharing and cooperation among European police and judicial authorities (through Europol and the European Arrest Warrant in particular). The UK’s efforts to regain access to much of their data has been denied and, as long as they aren’t in the EU, access they gain is tenuous, data protection rules are in dispute and real-time access to essential data from the SIS II system is impossible. The TCA also led to instability and reductions in EU-UK criminal justice cooperation. Regaining access means more effective cross-border crime fighting and a greater capacity for intelligence-led policing, including access to wide-ranging data on criminal suspects and fast-tracked extradition. Defense funds would also become more available, as the UK would no longer have to engage in failed negotiations to gain access to hundreds of billions of pounds in funding.


Advantage 3: Travel and Labor Rights

Travel to and from the UK gets a lot easier when it can be done passport free. Among other benefits, it precludes the need to deal with other entry systems that both restrict travel and impose delays. Even new systems that don’t require manually stamping passports require that UK citizens pay to get clearance to travel, and travel into the UK is similarly costly. Considering these effects diminished labor demand within the UK by an average of 15.7%, there is a gap in the labor market that is waiting to be filled. Freeing up travel will increase EU net migration to the UK and make it easier to travel into EU member nations given the mutual right to work, allowing free flow of labor in and out of the country that results in vast talent pools, increasing demand for foreign goods, smoother business operations. This also allows many to commute regularly for work and study, the latter particularly through cooperations like Erasmus. This would also free up tourism from the EU, which will in turn result in more money spent within the country.

The benefits also extend to consumers, who will be able to rely on EU protections. In particular, they will have the ability to seek redress from cross-border transactions through the Online Dispute Resolution (ODR) platform and have the protections of the Consumer Protection Cooperation Regulation to ensure authorities abroad work with local authorities. This will stimulate more trade between the UK and other EU nations.



I look forward to Con's case!

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Savant Administrator
Con #2

Framework:

I agree that quality of life should be the goal here. If we care about quality of life even for future UK citizens as Pro seems to agree with, then we should use long run utilitarianism to measure outcomes. Most of the effects of joining or staying out of the EU will be felt in years or decades, far outweighing short-term effects.



1. Progressive Policies:

Lowering Tax Burden on the Poor

Currently, the UK has one of the highest VAT thresholds in the world at £90,000. Under Council Directive (EU) 2020/285, effective from 2025, the maximum national exemption threshold is capped at €85,000 (approx. £71,000). A higher VAT threshold helps to account for rising inflation and allow small businesses to be more competitive. Re-joining would force the UK to lower their threshold by nearly £20,000 and hit thousands of working-class entrepreneurs with a 20% price hike. Additionally, the UK utilized its freedom outside the EU to zero-rate essential items such as sanitary products years before the EU made similar reforms. Additionally, the UK introduced a temporary zero-rate VAT on energy-saving materials until 2027. While the EU has started to make reforms along these lines, the EU limits Member States to zero-rating to a maximum of only seven categories from an approved list (Annex III).


In the long term, the ability to empower small businesses is very beneficial. To give one example, Singapore maintains a very high revenue threshold for mandatory GST (Goods and Services Tax, their equivalent of VAT) registration, typically around S$1 million (over £600,000). Singapore ranks second globally for Ease of Doing Business. Since the introduction of the GST in 1994, Singapore's GDP per capita has risen from approximately $21,552 to $90,674 as of 2024.


Protecting Worker Salaries

The UK has radically altered this dynamic by raising the Skilled Worker Salary Threshold. In April 2024, this was hiked from £26,200 to £38,700—a massive increase designed specifically to prevent employers from using migration to undercut British wages. Already, while wage growth in the EU and US has cooled to just 2.4%, UK posted wage growth remains robust at 5.3%.


Several success stories indicate these kinds of policies will be very effective in the long run. Switzerland, which is not an EU member, has strict policies that require employers to prove they cannot find a suitable worker domestically before hiring non-EU migrants. As a result, Switzerland consistently ranks among the highest in the world for average wage levels, productivity, and GDP per capita. Were Switzerland an EU member, this policy would be prohibited.


Another good case study is Singapore. Singapore uses the Foreign Worker Levy (FWL)—a monthly tax paid by the employer for every migrant worker hired. This levy is structured to be significantly higher for lower-skilled migrant workers and lower for high-skilled workers. As a result, Singapore ranks in the top 10 globally for average salaries and ranks first for global talent competitiveness. Were Singapore an EU member, this policy would be prohibited.



2. Potential for Long-term Growth:

Subsidies

Outside the EU, it is common for countries to subsidize critical industries. For example, South Korea’s semiconductor subsidy, and America’s CHIPS Act subsidy are part of long term strategies that have made them world leaders in microelectronics and advanced computing respectively. Furthermore, the “economic miracle” experienced by Taiwan and South Korea can largely be attributed to strategic subsidies. Following Brexit, the UK has already taken steps along these lines, subsidizing the new Tata Jaguar Land Rover Gigafactory, and implementing a new Subsidy Control Regime, which allows the government to offer financial incentives faster and with more flexibility than under the EU. This strategy would be largely impossible within the EU. Under EU rules (Article 108 TFEU), member states must generally notify the European Commission and wait for approval before granting aid, and there is a “general prohibition” on state aid. This creates uncertainty and delays that drive investors away. The UK's new system is “principles-based,” meaning the government can self-assess and move immediately.


Again, I’ll give a couple success stories to show the long term benefit of these types of policies. South Korea has consistently scaled up investment in R&D as part of a long-term strategy since the 1960s. Because of South Korea’s ability to subsidize important industries and protect its businesses, its GDP per capita grew from $158 in 1960 to over $33,000 today (a 20,700% increase), and it is ranked as the 3rd most innovative country in the world.


Taiwan's government built the world's most critical company, TSMC, by providing 48% of its initial capital. As of December 2025, TSMC has a market cap of $1.514 Trillion USD and controls over 90% of the most advanced chip manufacturing. Additionally, Taiwan was ranked as the 2nd most innovative country in the world.


Investments

The UK has diverged from the EU’s Solvency II regime by reforming the 'Matching Adjustment' to allow insurers to invest in assets with “highly predictable” rather than strictly “fixed” cash flows, and by removing the cap on 'sub-investment grade' assets. This allows the UK to channel the massive capital of the insurance sector into social housing and green energy, which were previously blocked by the EU’s risk-averse, harmonized framework. Private investment in the EU has stagnated. Funding to European startups fell from $86 billion invested in 2022 to $52 billion invested in 2023. Meanwhile, the UK raised more venture capital for AI and deep-tech startups than France and Germany combined, cementing its status as the third-largest tech ecosystem globally, behind only the US and China.


Additionally, freed from stringent EU regulations, the UK was able to pass the Precision Breeding Act for Plants. This will help to improve crop resilience, improve nutrition, and reduce shortages in the long term. NIAB called the implementation a “historic milestone,” and the broad consensus is that the Act ushers in a new era of innovation-driven, sustainable farming in the UK. And thanks to post-Brexit reforms like the “Combined Review” and AI integration, the UK has cut clinical trial approval times from 91 days to 41 days. Meanwhile, even under the new EU system, priority trials typically take 60 to 80 days to get approved.


So, what will this look like long term? Let’s take a look at countries that made similar policies to get a good idea. Australia manages one of the largest and most successful pension systems globally (Superannuation). Crucially, this system has been structurally mandated and incentivized to invest in domestic infrastructure (roads, ports, and renewable energy). To give another example, Israel's government created foundational mechanisms—like the Yozma program in the 1990s—which used state capital to fund venture capital funds, effectively attracting foreign VC. Israel now has one of the highest concentrations of high-tech startups and VC funding globally.



Rebuttals:

“GDP / trade volume”

The Brexit deal (TCA) is not static; it has a built-in review mechanism. The first major review is in 2026. Among the commitments are a proposed new agreement to establish a common sanitary and phytosanitary (SPS) area (covering food and agricultural standards) and a possible agreement on UK participation in the EU’s internal electricity market. Additionally, the UK can now negotiate on its own terms. The UK has more leverage here, as the EU sells more to the UK than the UK sells to them. Long-term, EU manufacturers will pressure Brussels to remove friction.


Additionally, the UK officially joined the CPTPP, which gives British businesses tariff-free access to 11 nations representing 15% of global GDP. Tariffs on UK whiskey exports to Malaysia dropped from 80% to 0%, and car export tariffs are being phased out. This is a market of over 500 million people that the UK could not independently access while inside the EU.


The EU is also not the best trade partner to prioritize long-term anyway. In 1995, the EU accounted for roughly 25% of global GDP. By 2050, this is projected to fall to under 10%. Asia is projected to account for half of global economic output by 2050, and the economic weight of the “Emerging 7” economies (China, India, Indonesia, Brazil, Russia, Mexico, Turkey) will likely be double the size of the G7 (advanced economies) by 2050. The EU’s working-age population is projected to shrink by 50 million workers (approximately 20%) by 2050. In 1999, roughly 55% of UK exports went to the EU. By the time of the 2016 vote, that had already fallen to roughly 43%. British businesses were already finding better growth in America and Asia.


“Higher cost of living”

UK inflation is projected to stabilize by 2027, showing it is largely a short-term effect. Current inflation is also driven by high wage growth, which will help to shift wealth to the working class. Long-term, outside the EU Customs Union, the UK can now unilaterally cut tariffs on goods from the rest of the world to combat cost of living directly. While inside the EU, the UK was forced to charge high tariffs on non-EU food under policies that favored other EU countries.


“human trafficking / modern slavery”

Rejoining the EU doesn't stop the boats; the EU has the same crisis. And the UK has more power to make deals more quickly and efficiently while outside the EU. The UK signed a landmark deal with Vietnam to curb illegal migration, reducing document processing time by 75% and allowing for fast-track returns. The UK has had success with direct, bilateral returns deals, such as with Vietnam. Following the UK-Albania deal, small boat arrivals from Albania dropped by 90% within a year. Additionally, The UK signed a targeted cooperation deal with Iraq. The EU, by contrast, is still debating its “Migration Pact.”

Round 2

2 of 3
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whiteflame Global Moderator
Pro #3

Impressive work from Con!


Framework


Utilitarianism makes sense. Three problems with focusing on the long run aspect:


  1. It’s impractical. Any number of policies and external pressures may be applied to the UK over the years, shifting the scale we’re using to weigh harms and benefits, hence why long term economic predictions are represented by probability distributions of outcomes.
  2. I reject the idea that present and near-term impacts should be sacrificed for expected future gain. If people are hurting now, that's reason to act.
  3. Three, the two are not mutually exclusive. Impacts with both short and long term consequences should have the greatest weight.


I’ll reorganize the debate.


Contention 1: Economics


Trade


The EU was still by far the UK’s largest trading partner and, due to proximity and shared markets, will remain so. Con argues that the UK should pursue other markets. Three problems.


  1. The UK is still dependent on the EU, especially for: supply chains, which remain unstable post-Brexit, increasing costs for 70% of UK firms, and as their chief market for trade services.
  2. The UK has agreements with CPTPP, Australia, New Zealand, the US and India, all of which are massively outweighed by Brexit and benefit foreign producers at the expense of UK farmers and businesses. The EU accounts for 41% of UK exports and 51% of UK imports now, both of which stand to grow if the UK rejoins. This will remove tariff and NTM barriers, as well as the many bureaucratic costs that prevent 14% of UK companies from trading with the EU, as well as restore customer confidence in cross-border transactions, increasing trade by making disputes with EU-based traders less costly and complex
  3. The UK can wield far greater leverage in trade talks from inside the EU than from without due to the addition of a much bigger and more diverse economic bloc. They will also regain a lot of leverage within the EU, both as one of their biggest trading partners and via their defense and security initiatives, which are essential to the EU since Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.


Investments


Foreign investments in the UK are down 12-18% post-Brexit. Even big wins in private investment have not significantly reversed this. The UK’s numbers on direct investment are even worse than the EU’s: foreign direct investment (FDI) fell from £22.9 billion to £1.3 billion in the UK between 2022 and 2023.


The UK’s measures introduce more risk and costs. The Matching Adjustment requires insurers to join the system, despite the additional tests required and many preferring fixed cash flows. Both the new compliance burdens and high risk cash flows act as deterrents to investment. Similarly, sub-investment grade assets carry hefty risks, including lower liquidity, concentration, reinvestment and credit risks, and rebalancing constraints, increasing risk of default. That risk has already increased interest costs for real estate investment companies. Both policies differ substantially from both Australia’s and Israel’s, and those countries' successes don’t evince similar outcomes for the UK.


The programs Con cites aren’t big windfalls, either. The Precision Breeding Act for Plants is hampered by a risk averse EU market that treats PBOs the same as GMOs. A similar system to Combined Review is in the works in the EU as well, one with effective controls for the risk of this AI application.


Wage Growth/Inflation


UK wage growth is leveling off and its benefits are mixed at best due to reduced purchasing power and tax adjustments reducing their take-home pay.


Addressing inflation isn’t enough. Prices are stubbornly high already, economic growth remains low, and weak productivity restricts the UK’s capacity to grow, leaving the country vulnerable to future crises.


Influence/Market Access


Acquiring everything the UK needs from outside of the EU would be expensive and slow. Just covering shortfalls in the lettuce market via a deal with the US more than doubled the price. Con’s strategy requires a much bigger set of deals with more diverse food varieties covering more persistent needs from multiple countries. Sourcing food, tariff-free, from within the EU kept prices down.


Con points to the TCA’s review mechanism as a panacea. However, the TCA can only sand down trade frictions. The car market demonstrates the myriad ways the EU suppresses the UK’s market via “rules of origin”-based tariffs and NTM barriers like compliance costs involving complex documentation and standards testing, each of which have to be negotiated down with deals that may never materialize and could be reversed.


Focusing on the UK’s leverage, Con’s link shows that trade in services favors the EU. These services are the backbone of UK exports, yet the UK hasn’t been able to sell them further abroad. The EU currently wields more power in negotiations with the UK because of the imbalance in their relative needs, with the UK amounting to 10.1% of the EU’s imports while 51% of the UK’s imports come from the EU.


Subsidies


Con’s talks up the benefits of subsidies in the UK. Three responses.


  1. Subsidies aren’t an absolute good. Markets can and do suffer from their imposition. The UK is borrowing far more than it can afford to advantage certain businesses, skewing markets in favor of certain enterprises. This has already yielded numerous legal challenges. Since they can be handed out and clawed back by governments, they can also yield major consequences as countries shift policy and turn to austerity.
  2. While the Jaguar Gigafactory could address the “rules of origin” issue for one company, it doesn’t address the compliance costs at all. Even this £500m subsidy only mitigates a problem that rejoining the EU would solve.
  3. Third, the comparisons to South Korea and Taiwan amount to assertions of UK success: they have invested in different industries in different markets. The UK isn’t following their roadmap.


Tax burden


Con talks about VAT. VAT stands for Value Added Tax. It sets the threshold taxable turnover at which businesses owe a consumption tax. This threshold is lower in the EU, and they restrict the number of product categories that can be “zero-rated,” i.e. the company can reclaim the VAT it pays, keeping prices down.


But the EU is restrictive for a reason: more variation in VAT between nations leads to significant tax advantages and consumption shifting. The EU takes measures to address disparities with non-EU nations. Any company in the UK selling to the EU has to contend with that country’s VAT threshold. This is particularly devastating for ecommerce sellers (26,000 UK-based ecommerce sellers, around 10% of the UK sector), who are subjected to the one-stop-shop (OSS) system, requiring them to register for each country’s VAT at substantial cost and pay selling platforms to handle paying other countries’ VAT.


All of these VAT changes, on top of customs, excise, and other Brexit-related changes, undoubtedly will make EU–UK trade in goods and services, and in particular business-to-consumers trade, more expensive, more complicated, and less attractive for both businesses and consumers.


And it’s played out negatively for the UK, whose GDP has continued to underperform post-Brexit. Singapore, by contrast, doesn’t have similar pressures.


Contention 2: Travel and Labor


Labor demand/wages


Con drops that labor demand declined by 15.7% because of Brexit. This amounts to 460,000 people by 2024, with the biggest effects in agriculture, hospitality and construction, establishing a gap in the labor market that has resulted in weaker economic growth with 38% of UK businesses not growing and 12% of them shrinking. Food security and food safety are at great risk, with labor shortages leading to increasing fraud and adulteration concerns.


Con drops that entry into the EU would increase talent pools, demand for UK goods, and stream-line business operations. Instead, he doubles down against foreign labor. Raising the Skilled Worker Salary Threshold has worsened labor shortages, with massive shortfalls in skilled labor: 150,000 from the National Health Services (NHS) workforce, 132,000 from hospitality, 61,000 in manufacturing, and 59,000 engineers. Small businesses cannot afford to recruit from abroad, as they incur both the higher wage costs and increased fees. Worse yet, unemployment has continued to rise as the labor market unravels despite these efforts. Young workers have paid the biggest price despite rising wages with more downsizing and reduced hours.


Con’s examples work against him. Switzerland encourages hiring EU migrants, placing its restrictions on non-EU migrants, bringing in over a hundred thousand of new migrants from the EU in 2024 alone. The UK’s migration policies function as a blanket suppressor of labor migration, with a net negative number of EU migrants. Singapore’s levies encourage skilled immigration, as they are reliant on foreign manpower.


Security/Human trafficking


Con argues that human trafficking is non-unique to the EU. Three problems.


  1. Con drops the mechanisms the UK and EU use to address human trafficking and criminal activity in collaboration that the TCA has uniquely destabilized, including Europol, the European Arrest Warrant, the SIS II system, and hundreds of billions of pounds in defense funds, all of which have an established track record of boosting UK cross-border crime fighting and intelligence-led policing by providing necessary data on criminal suspects and stream-lining extradition.
  2. The magnitudes are starkly different. In the span of 4 years, small boat crossings to the UK increased from 299 per year to 46,000. The number of registered victims of human trafficking is also higher than the entire EU (19,125 vs. 10,793), and the EU has since instituted a crackdown on human trafficking.
  3. Signing deals with individual countries like Vietnam (not one of the top 5 nationalities arriving at UK shores) is a band-aid solution to the UK enforcement problem.


Back to you, Con.

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Savant Administrator
Con #4

Nice work from Pro!



Framework:

Long-term impacts should hold more weight as they cover a much longer period of time than short-term impacts and will affect more people. Since utilitarianism weighs future UK lives equally to current UK lives, scale is what matters. We should prefer a policy with more long term benefits over a policy with significantly fewer long term benefits, even if the former has some short term costs.

Pro claims long-term planning is impractical, but South Korea and Taiwan successfully used long-term planning to become tech powerhouses, despite some short-term inefficiencies when the subsidy programs began. Even if Pro’s criticism held weight, the same applies to any benefits of his plan: by the time the UK manages to rejoin the EU, plenty of new policies may have been passed that could change the calculus he’s using.



1. Economy:

“The EU [will remain] the UK’s largest trading partner”

The EU is projected to fall to under 10% of global GDP by 2050. The CPTPP (which the UK joined) is widely expanding membership and processing applications from high-growth economies like Costa Rica and Indonesia. The Indo-Pacific region (which the CPTPP unlocks) is projected to account for 54% of global growth by 2050 and hold two thirds of global wealth in the coming decades. Vietnam joined the CPTPP in 2018 and recently saw CPTPP trade turnover reach nearly $103 billion in the first 10 months. This was after Vietnam had been in the CPTPP for 7 years. The UK has only been a member for one year, and we should expect these benefits to materialize over several years, because the UK businesses are still adjusting to Rules of Origin thresholds, which will enable tariff-free trade.


Vietnam lost nearly all its trading partners when the Soviet Union collapsed—yet within five years, it had joined ASEAN, and saw its exports surge by 20% to 30% annually in the 1990s. If a nation with shattered infrastructure could pivot its entire economy, the world’s 6th largest economy with a dominant services sector can reorient its trade portfolio.


Pro claims VAT changes make trade more expensive. However, this is a short term adjustment, as businesses are rapidly digitalizing their logistics and shifting supply chains toward the world’s highest-growth markets. The UK is also greatly simplifying this process with the Electronic Trade Documents Act and developing “Digital by Default” systems.


“power in negotiations”

The UK buys more from the EU than vice versa, running a £93 billion trade deficit as of 2024. Leverage here belongs to the buyer, not the seller, because money can be spent anywhere, whereas supply chains and factories are dependent on specific export volumes to remain profitable. The UK can go buy automobiles from Japan, wine from Australia, and beef from the US. While the UK might be only 10.1% of the EU’s imports on average, for key members like France and Germany, the UK market is critical. The EU relies on consensus, and if it tries to squeeze the UK, this could greatly harm the Irish agricultural sector which greatly depends on the UK as a customer and the German car industry which relies on the UK as its third-largest customer.


“deterrents to investment”

Pro cites an article claiming uncertainty caused a reduction in investment to the UK following Brexit, but this is short-term friction, since companies are adjusting by digitalizing logistics, and the period of uncertainty largely ended, which will increase investor trust. The EU’s fragmented capital markets “deprive businesses and investors of…reliable sources of funding and investment”. Meanwhile, a 2024 report found that if the UK govt mobilizes the £6 trillion of long-term capital held in pension and insurance funds, which they are actively working towards by delivering the “Solvency UK” reforms to replace restrictive EU rules, this will deliver £100 billion of new capital every year into the UK economy. These investments will capture the “illiquidity premium”—generating significantly higher yields than safe EU bonds, which pension funds need to beat inflation. High risk investments (“sub-investment grade”) are critical for businesses in volatile sectors such as energy, telecom and social housing projects. Pro claims this risk has increased costs for investment companies, but his source attributes the increased interest to European Central Bank rate increases and states “corporate credit spreads are very tight,” which implies investors are not demanding high risk premiums. South Korea’s economic boom resulted from relaxing financial constraints, giving firms permanent productivity boosts. The UK is doing just that by reforming the EU’s Solvency II rules.


“Markets can…suffer from [subsidy] imposition”

The subsidies in the UK are strategic and targeted at high-growth sectors where the UK holds a global comparative advantage, such as AI, Life Sciences, and Engineering Biology. They function as strategic co-investments that de-risk innovation for private capital. The borrowing Pro criticizes is fueling a massive growth mission, which the IMF has praised as focusing on “the right areas to lift productivity” while “safeguarding fiscal sustainability.” The legal challenges Pro brings up are a result of the UK allowing interested parties to hold subsidies accountable rather than an EU committee. The UK is moving away from micro-management to establish a transparent accountability framework for taxpayer spending, which will reduce time and cost in the long run.


“EU market [hampers] The Precision Breeding Act for Plants”

The EU market is not stopping the benefit to the UK, as UK scientists are working on innovations “already in the pipeline” such as disease-resistant beets and potatoes, and the Act provides a direct benefit to the UK’s own food supply chain. Furthermore, this will open up massive trade opportunities with non-EU countries that already align with the UK’s new regulatory framework.


“similar system to Combined Review is in the works in the EU”

The “similar system” Pro links to is the EU AI Act. This will slow things down, not speed them up, as it “adds a new compliance layer atop existing regulations” for pharmaceutical firms, while experts warn that the Act’s vague wording could burden innovation.


“UK wage growth is leveling off...labor demand declined…unemployment has continued to rise”

As Pro’s source admits, advertised salaries for low-wage roles still “rose by 5.9% in the year to October.” The UK now has sustainable tools to keep wage growth high long-term by implementing a points-based immigration system, forcing employers to raise pay rather than importing cheap staff. Unemployment is near long-term historical norms, the rise is only short-term. Wages are rising due to strong demand for labor (which Pro acknowledges), which will shift wealth to the working class, who depend on wages to maintain their quality of life. Upcoming UK Investment Zones will attract high-paying industries like tech and life sciences. The study Pro cites also finds that exposed firms are “more likely to increase…R&D expenditure,” which will result in long-term growth.


“The UK isn’t following [South Korea/Taiwan/Australia/Israel/Singapore]”

The UK is keeping the key principles that worked in these countries while customizing the policies to take advantage of the UK’s own unique strengths. The UK is adopting strategies such as flexibility for long-term assets as seen in Australia and Israel, encouragement of institutional investment as seen in Israel, and unlocking pension funds for high-growth investment as seen in Australia. Meanwhile, the UK is also shifting toward a judgment-based accountability model for investment, taking advantage of its world-leading depth of actuarial expertise. The UK is copying strategies such as long-term strategic alignment and targeted state co-investment as seen in both South Korea and Taiwan. But the UK is also tailoring its subsidy policies specifically to take advantage of its comparative advantage in high-value design and digital and financial services. Pro claims Singapore does not have similar short-term pressures to the UK, ignoring the fact that Singapore started its growth as a third-world country facing massive economic pressure.



2. Travel:

“Switzerland/Singapore encourage immigration”

These countries still strictly control which immigrants can come in with policies they couldn’t adopt in the EU. Switzerland has job registration requirements and “flanking measures” that favor Swiss workers over EU workers. Singapore’s foreign worker levy and restrictions on foreign work permits favors native workers over foreign workers. Long-term, the UK can specifically allow only migrants that benefit the country now that it has full control of its borders. The UK raised the Skilled Worker salary threshold, preventing businesses from undercutting domestic wages, whilst also implementing the “Global Talent” and “High Potential Individual” visa routes to fast-track leaders in academia, research, and digital technology.


“registered victims of human trafficking [in the UK] is also higher than the entire EU”

Pro’s source concedes “Higher rates could be linked to a greater capacity…to identify victims.” Furthermore, “the actual figure is likely to be much higher [than measured] as many victims remain undetected.” Fewer reports in the EU are a failure of detection, as the UK has a lower estimated slavery prevalence per capita than 21 of the 27 EU members. Pro’s source admits that the rise in recorded small boat crossings is largely due to other methods of illegal crossing becoming less viable, as well as small boat crossings being easier to detect.


“deals with individual countries like Vietnam…is a band-aid solution”

Not if the UK keeps signing deals with more and more countries. The UK has signed deals with Albania and Iraq, Turkey, Bangladesh, and Pakistan. Pro’s source admits that Vietnamese small boat arrivals halved from 2024 to 2025.

Round 3

3 of 3
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whiteflame Global Moderator
Pro #5

Great debate, Con!


1. Framework


Con concedes that “new policies may be passed that could change the calculus” of future actions. Con is also sacrificing those in the present - a known set of harms - for a potential benefit to future generations. 


Voters should prefer impacts with known consequences to potential future benefits, recognize that short term harms matter, and that the effects of those harms can and often do have lasting consequences.


2. How has Brexit affected the UK economy?


Con conceded the negative impacts of Brexit. He also conceded that rejoining the EU erases them. That’s the threshold Con has to overcome with his argument.


6-8% of GDP, a cumulative loss of between £180 and £240 billion

The UK has lost £90 billion a year and exports are down £27 billion


These are both short and long term harms that compound over time. They represent net losses, and thus factor in changes resulting from existing policy like the TCA. They’re already yielding long term consequences: with underinvestment of almost £2 trillion in the UK’s infrastructure and a shortfall of capital to scale-up the UK economy and provide critical infrastructure, the UK faces massive increases in project costs and delays, losses it will continue to feel for decades.


3. Where could the UK recoup its economic losses?


  1. Countries further abroad


Grant Con the growth projections for the CPTPP and Vietnam.


Con doesn’t have any projections on how much the UK stands to gain from these agreements. His argument is an appeal to possibility: since their economies are growing rapidly, the UK’s economy will also grow rapidly. Con cites Vietnam as an economy that bounced back, but the UK has some big differences, including: a diminishing manufacturing capacity, reliance on a strong and consistent regional supply chain from the EU, and its reliance on trade services it can’t sell abroad. All have remained intractable.


Agreements the UK has gotten with CPTPP, Australia, New Zealand, the US and India are dwarfed by the costs of Brexit and came at the expense of its farmers and businesses. The UK’s economic position in the world is declining, projected to fall from 3.3% to 2.7% of world GDP by 2050, so what incentive do countries with rapidly growing economies like those in CPTPP have to give the UK a more favorable deal? The UK’s leverage will only wane at this rate, resulting in weaker deals.


The UK has its greatest leverage now while it remains the world’s 6th largest economy, but rejoining the EU would add a much larger slice of the world GDP (14.7%). Wielding that as well as a diverse economic bloc representing a broad suite of goods and services grants the UK far more weight in negotiations, and while those deals may come in slower, they will be more substantial and beneficial to the UK than deals it can get now. The UK also has leverage over the EU both economically and in security, which it can wield to improve and streamline EU operations if it rejoins.


  1. Investments and subsidies


Even with all of Con’s numbers, it remains unclear what effect all these policy changes will have on the UK’s GDP or how much it would reverse investment losses.


Con’s arguments imply that the UK will back further away from the EU, reducing UK-EU trade. The EU currently accounts for 41% of UK exports and 51% of imports, so Con would compound the losses caused by Brexit with no other market that could or would occupy that essential niche. If the UK remains reliant on the EU as a market, ecommerce sellers will continue to suffer the consequences of the OSS system, car companies will continue to struggle with “rules of origin” laws and NTMs, forcing investment into battery-manufacturing gigafactories with negative results (see: Britishvolt), and EU roadblocks like customs, local VAT and excise taxes will continue to drain them.


Regarding supply chains, Con drops the importance of proximity, which explains the spike in the cost of imports post-Brexit and why 70% of UK firms are still paying more for imports. Buying abroad doesn’t solve the distance and shipping costs. This would be especially devastating for food imports, which could drastically increase in cost without stable deals with the EU.


On investment, Con points to some private investment successes, but that 12-18% loss as a result of Brexit looms larger. Con claims this was “short-term friction” and cites an article claiming the UK will move past this… in 2023. Note that the article I cited came out in 2025 and it’s still a problem. Con keeps beating the drum on high risk investments, dropping my sources that show that these risks yield lower liquidity, reinvestment and credit risks, and increase risk of default. Con misses where my source on real estate investment companies explicitly says that “Almost all [their investments] are currently sub-investment grade” and links it directly to declines in interest rate coverage ratios. So while it might help some markets, it’s hurting others. Regarding Solvency UK, it’s unclear what, if any, elements of the EU’s Solvency II prevent the UK from accessing long-term capital the UK holds (Con’s links do not clarify), but if it is a problem, the UK could still access these funds and invest them before rejoining the EU.


On subsidies, the legal challenges occur because the Subsidy Control Act is not effectively regulating who gets them and the result is distortion via selective advantage in markets - in this case, airlines, property developers and lottery companies. For all Con champions accountability, that accountability comes slow for the few that have sought it. Con drops that markets can be harmed by subsidies, retracting them destroys industries, and the UK’s borrowing to pay them has put the country in debt. De-risking innovation doesn’t address any of this, and I wouldn’t trust the IMF’s views on sustainable investments.


On plant breeding, Con concedes the lack of a market for resulting plants in the EU, asserting that other markets will open up just because the UK’s regulatory framework is changing. Its benefits for UK food security are counteracted by persistent labor shortages.


Wage growth continues to be tempered by reduced purchasing power and tax adjustments while leading to more downsizing and reduced hours for UK workers.


Even if you grant Con some solvency here, recall that many of these investments and subsidies can still occur under the EU system, albeit with more limits.


  1. Solvency through similarity


Con’s comparisons to other countries assume contextual differences don’t affect their solvency. To do so, he assumes: similar markets, investment priorities, capital, and economic pressures, despite vast differences in time (years and decades) space (different regions with distinct supply chains). At best, these suggest a shared path to success, albeit one with benefits that we cannot easily quantify for the UK.


None of these countries unilaterally left an economic bloc only to remain tethered to it. That has raised the cost of doing business with their closest economic partners, placing the EU in a position to challenge or counter-balance changes to UK policy. None of them had the alternative of just returning to that bloc and restoring the strength of their markets, either.


4. How has Brexit impacted labor?


Once again, the numbers are stark.


Employment and total factor productivity are down 3-4%


Con claims that Global Talent and HPI visas will solve this, despite both having been in place for years already. Those high wages are reducing the capacity of businesses to hire. Entry and travel costs into the UK are up, so both companies and individuals are paying more. Labor demand has dropped by 15.7%. There are massive worker gaps, hundreds of thousands strong, in the labor market. What are the impacts?


38% of UK businesses are not growing and 12% of them shrinking

Food systems: food insecurity and food safety risks, increasing costs of goods and health care

Nursing: short-staffing in hospitals and care homes leading to panic attacks, exhaustion, and burnout

Manufacturing: production cuts, delivery delays and wasted goods

Engineering: infrastructure days, innovation bottlenecks and increased operational costs


Con points to Switzerland and Singapore’s measures, but doesn’t acknowledge the key ways in which they’re different. In Switzerland, those job registration requirements affect only 6.5% of the workforce and they have continued to reduce most barriers to entry, resulting in over 100,000 new migrant workers from the EU in 2024 compared with the net negative migration to the UK. In Singapore, those levies are far lower for high skilled labor. Con drops their continued need for foreign manpower and given the sustained growth in foreign labor, those work permits aren’t slowing it down.


5. How can the UK address these labor deficits?


Con provides no evidence that existing or planned UK policy is filling these vacancies. Instead, he has doubled down on policies that reduced skilled labor immigration.


The UK’s efforts to tamp down immigration have dramatically increased human trafficking. Con concedes that shutting down legal routes to entry increased demand for traffickers to enter the UK. He drops that the TCA uniquely destabilized the UK’s response by surrendering access to Europol, the EAW, the SIS II system, and massive defense funds. Instead, Con just claims that the EU has failed to detect victims (non-unique: the UK has massively underestimated its numbers), implying that adding tools that have engendered UK successes in intelligence-led policing would either impede or not help the UK address human trafficking. Make that make sense.


Con claims that the UK can just sign more deals to solve for immigration. He’s effectively playing a game of migration whack-a-mole where crises must be resolved by agreements that may never materialize (no deals with any of the top 5 source countries) and will always be playing catch-up. 

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Savant Administrator
Con #6

Thanks for the debate, Pro!



Framework:

Long term impacts last over generations—the ability to generate better capital investments, infrastructure, and trade deals over time will have more compounding benefits than just having more capital/infrastructure/trade in the short term.


Pro now claims in R3 that his impacts are “conceded” and certain, but he has already admitted that rejoining the EU today would require concessions it wasn’t making before—adopting the euro and joining the Schengen Area, which would constrain British fiscal policy and abolish border checks with other EU countries, even during migration spikes. Thus, Pro cannot assume that rejoining will simply “turn back the clock.”


My long-term impacts have stood the test of time and had positive effects across multiple countries with different economies. South Korea and Taiwan invested in different industrial sectors with different natural resource bases, yet both succeeded due to strategic state co-investment and sovereign regulatory agility, which the UK is using now. These policies had consistent, lasting benefits (South Korea’s GDP per capita grew from $158 in 1960 to over $33,000 today), even when South Korea and Taiwan both suffered multiple significant external shocks. Singapore’s long-term high GST (which the UK's high VAT emulates) has brought it into the top 10 for global salaries; its long-term play worked despite global economic conditions and domestic growth rates changing over time. Australia’s Superannuation system (which Solvency UK emulates) had lasting, long-term benefits despite interest rates and commodity prices changing over time. Pro is looking at short-term effects in the past that have no evidence of being repeatable as markets change, while I am looking at policies that will have consistent benefits and can weather fluctuating markets.


Pro brings up a few new numbers in R3 and insists I quantify my impacts against them. So I’ll give a few projections that show a few gains the UK will likely realize through its reforms. The UK’s more efficient AI adoption (a point Pro has largely dropped), combined with subsidies, “AI Growth Zones,” and ditching EU regulations, will likely grow the UK AI sector by a projected £400 billion by 2030, which outweighs Pro’s £180-£240 billion GDP loss. These reforms would be impossible under EU rules, which generally prohibit these subsidies and put heavy constraints on AI development. Pro’s “lost £90 billion in revenue,” underinvestment, and lost capital is due to a claimed shrinking economy, so we can expect those effects to reverse long term as well due to massive projected growth in AI alone outweighing the quantity of GDP loss. As for trade, Vietnam has already seen CPTPP trade turnover reach nearly $103 billion in the first 10 months of 2025 after being a member for 7 years—since the UK has only been a member for one year, it will take a few years to see similar effects, but they will dwarf the short term “£27 billion loss in exports” that Pro is citing.



1. Economy:

Trade

The UK can and does sell trade services abroad, such as financial services (where the UK runs a trade surplus with non-EU countries) and legal services (where English law governs 40% of global corporate arbitrations). The UK has more freedom than Vietnam did as a struggling economy that lost all its major trade partners or that Singapore had as a struggling third-world nation—Pro claims the UK has unique struggles with supply chains, but these nations improved rapidly under much worse circumstances.


Pro concedes that economies in the CPTPP are “rapidly growing,” and the UK deals with these countries guarantee the UK can eliminate tariffs on over 99% of UK goods exports. Pro drops my point that the Indo-Pacific region (which the CPTPP unlocks) is projected to account for 54% of global growth by 2050 and hold two thirds of global wealth in the coming decades, while the EU is projected to fall to under 10% of global GDP. Growing economies are also incentivized to make deals with the UK due to the UK’s comparative advantage in financial services, digital trade, and business services.


Pro drops my points that key EU members like France and Germany, and the Irish agricultural sector rely on the UK. Further, Pro concedes the UK has “leverage over the EU both economically and in security”—so it should not give up its bargaining power by letting EU rules dictate the terms of trade. The EU consistently prioritizes agreements that limit the UK, binding the UK with restrictions such as the Common External Tariff and protectionist agricultural quotas to advantage France and Italy. The UK benefits from negotiating on its own terms; as Pro’s source concedes, “The UK’s weight as a diplomatic and military actor…should be a significant incentive for the EU to pursue a closer…relationship with Britain.”


Pro now cites shipping costs to insist that proximity makes EU-UK trade necessary. But technological advancements in logistics significantly reduce the impact of distance on trade costs, and Pro drops that the UK’s Electronic Trade Documents Act and “Digital by Default” systems are greatly simplifying this process. Shipping costs are zero for the UK’s rapidly expanding remote financial and AI services. Diversification is what allows supply chain resilience, and relying on a single close market (which will suffer from similar regional shocks to the UK and is thus not diversified) reduces safety.


Subsidies

As I said in R2, the borrowing Pro criticizes is fueling massive growth, which the IMF has praised as focusing on “the right areas to lift productivity” while “safeguarding fiscal sustainability.” Pro cites an article critiquing some of the IMF’s practices, but this has little to do with its analysis of UK subsidies. (The article also praises the IMF’s current leadership for “fresh and innovative thinking, often moving before others.”) Pro drops that these subsidies are in high-growth sectors where the UK holds a global comparative advantage, such as AI, Life Sciences, and Engineering Biology. They’re comparable to the successful tech subsidies in the US, Taiwan, and South Korea (which Pro doesn't dispute were successful)—investments that help spur industries where the country has potential to dominate, rather than simply propping up failing industries.


Investments/Growth

Long-term growth requires constant adaptability. Pro does not dispute that the UK’s high VAT threshold (which would be impossible in the EU) helps to account for rising inflation and allow small businesses to be more competitive. The UK is also more agile in making VAT reforms, zero-rating sanitary products years before the EU did and introducing a temporary zero-rate VAT on energy-saving materials until 2027. Pro drops that the UK has cut clinical trial approval times from 91 days to 41 days, while the EU AI Act will slow things down by adding “a new compliance layer atop existing regulations” for pharmaceutical firms. Pro’s 2025 article cites a paper which acknowledges that uncertainty significantly declined after new trade agreements came into effect. Solvency UK can put over £100 billion of new capital on the table every year for productive investment, specifically by ditching the EU’s cost disclosure requirements and Packaged Retail Investment Products regulation. This capital can fund critical infrastructure, green energy projects, and social housing, and free up funding for 300,000 new homes per year. This is a recurring, yearly benefit, so the UK cannot “access and then rejoin” because it would no longer be able to access this capital each year. Pro reverses cause and effect with regard to expenses—his source says that “ECB rate spikes” are causing the companies (REITs) themselves to become classified as sub-investment grade, not that sub-investment grade assets are leading to higher costs. In UK investment funds, long time frames will help to flatten risk, and these investments will benefit from illiquidity premiums (higher yields) which are needed to beat inflation long term (hence reducing inflation risk) as I mentioned in R2.



2. Wages:

Pro drops my point that higher wages and competition for labor benefit the working class, who depend on wages to maintain their quality of life, which is the highest value in this debate. When the UK was in the EU, firms relied on cheap foreign labor and undercut native workers, focusing on short-term cost saving over long-term investment. As Pro’s source admits, firms that could no longer rely on this labor scaled up R&D (this amounts to investment from a third of UK businesses), which will fuel growth long-term and deliver better health outcomes. It also leads to higher wages long term. Pro doesn’t dispute that Switzerland and Singapore have restrictions the EU would not allow—to emulate those countries long-term, the UK must remain independent. The UK is implementing a points-based system that prioritizes high-value human capital to allow immigration only for industries where the need for workers is critical. In the past year, the UK has significantly increased investment in the Migration Advisory Committee, which is linking visa approvals directly to domestic skills training targets.



3. Travel:

As Pro’s source concedes, the rise in small boat crossings is due to other methods of illegal entry becoming less viable. I cited the Global Slavery Index, which accounts for non-reporting by conducting nationally representative surveys and using statistical risk modelling. When non-reporting is accounted for, the UK has a lower estimated slavery prevalence per capita than 21 of the 27 EU members. I brought this point up in R2, and Pro drops it. The UK did sign deals with top source countries—Albania, Vietnam, and Iraq were top source countries. After successful deals with the UK, arrivals from these countries plummeted, so they are no longer top source countries.

New comment

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•••
#21

I would probbly give framework to whiteflame. I was assigned to vote this but its a ton of impacts to weigh. I'm not sure that I have the time to actually weigh that many impacts on each side. I think the topic may need to be refined more. I also don't usually click on the links to read citations as that is the debaters' jobs but I did here and I think to take these citations apart you need a lot fewer of them.

I am also reading a lot of dense law related shit because my degree has somehow made me qualified to be a consultant to real attorneys on a very niche area of the law/ It's a degree in cyber security which they were looking for and then they put me on digging into this section of law kinda randomly.

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#20
--> @Savant

Because I actually want to read the debate not the scenarios presented which take more concentration due to being boring as fuck. Plus I could have swore I already passed it

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Savant Administrator
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#19
--> @wylted

Criteria for UltraRated are more strict and specific than on DART. You can't expect to just meet criteria based on experience, you have to pay attention to the rubric. For example, how frameworks are handled and how much you need to address each argument made.

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Savant Administrator
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#18
--> @wylted

The vote itself is gonna take way longer than the quiz. If you can't even do the quiz on your own why should you be trusted with a vote that should take hours if done right?

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#17

I will see if I can get chat GPT to do the quiz for me. it's bullshit. I am legacy user I shouldn't need to do it. Ugh

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Savant Administrator
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#16
--> @wylted

You have to go to profile then badges then do vote quiz to vote then click to earn a vote badge and it will assign you a debate to vote on

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#15

savant why would you concede the following? "I agree that quality of life should be the goal here."

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#14

it wont let me vote. how do i vite

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Savant Administrator
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#13
--> @GreatfulGoy

Vote button shows up once you are assigned to vote.

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#12

Never mind, it lets me vote the normal way, lol.

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#11
--> @Savant

I tried to vote on this but it won't let me even via the badges button.

I wont vote today necessarily but was curious if I could.

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Savant Administrator
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#10
--> @whiteflame

Seconded

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whiteflame Global Moderator
•••
#9

To anyone who opts to vote on this: I am very much obliged for your efforts. This was a lot of work to write and debate, and I have no doubt it will be similarly involved to read and parse. The effort is very much appreciated.

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#8
--> @SomeDebatePerson

"Too many links."

this is a great debate, one of best ones so far on the site. Why would many links be an issue tho? How is it a disadvantage in debate to have many sources?

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whiteflame Global Moderator
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#7
--> @Savant

Didn't have enough room to say it, but this was a blast to debate. Had a great time doing it and I look forward to seeing how it all pans out.

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whiteflame Global Moderator
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#6
--> @Savant

Appreciate it, and I'll consider that link as a part of your argument.

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whiteflame Global Moderator
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#5
--> @SomeDebatePerson

Lot of individual parts to each point means you need a lot of support for those arguments.

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#4

Work smarter, not harder.

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#3

Too many links.

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Savant Administrator
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#2
--> @whiteflame

Forgot to put this in my opening arg, but I am excited finally debate against you as well.

Edit: Also should put this in my next arg probably, but I just realized I linked to the wrong source for min salary threshold increase for Skilled Worker visa's salary threshold (the link I gave has info along similar lines, but the details are slightly different). Here's the right link:

https://www.jobbatical.com/blog/uk-goverment-raises-skilled-worker-visa-minimum-salary-by-one-third-and-eliminates-discount-for-shortage-occupation-roles

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whiteflame Global Moderator
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#1

Ooh, this will be fun. Looking forward to a good foreign policy debate.

Criterion Pro Tie Con
Winner
In my opinion, this debate results in a tie between Pro and Cons.

Indeed, both had very strong arguments but weren't really deconstructed, but rather they were countered by a distinct argument in the opponent's favor.

Pro's opinion was extremely interesting, focusing on how we should act in short-term and solve English people's pre-existing problems ; highlighting the importance of interdependancy and collective actions of resolving problems with immediate to short term solutions.

Con was focused on the importance of LRU (Long Run Utilitarianism), showing exemples of other countries that worked better with long term autonomous planning, and the projections (countering the "current problems" that UK is facing).

Very interesting debate overall, but I don't think we can conclude with any winning part here.

Nice debate !
Leaning
Leaning Global Moderator
#2
Criterion Pro Tie Con
Winner
whiteflame R 1
Framework, Quality of Life
UK to EU, to avoid $ decline
Global reach
'Had then, opt out of some requirements
2016, Brexit 51%
Leaving = $ harms
Migrant sources changed
Rejoin, trade benefit
More porous border would strengthen economy

Savant R 1
Agrees to Quality of Life Framework, but argues for long term quality of life
VAT, ability to reform easier
Wage growth
Swiss, Singapore.
Outside the EU, it is common for countries to subsidize critical industries
EU stagnant investment
Plants
Brexit Trade not static
Other options outside of EU
Potential future outside EU markets bigger
Cost of living projected to stabilize 2027, high wage growth
Argues EU has same boat migrant crisis, and UK by freedom has options EU doesn't

Thoughts Round 1
Person going second always has last word, 'currently I'd rate Con higher, but this is only because Pro has not yet used rebuttals or answered criticisms.
Bother sides prolific in sourcing claims, so sources likely won't play into debate, unless they devalue each others sources.

Whiteflame Round 2
1, Argues long term predictions unpredictable.
Above not highly convincing to me, as Con says being out of EU allows flexibility to new problems. And people long term plan for a reason, reasonable enough expectations and plans.
Better argued might be to 'also focus on EU as 'reliable and close partner, in case of future trade or military world wars. Or perhaps natural disasters. Though, this is modern travel age, I'm not sure how convincing such tactic by Pro would be.
2, Eh, but short term should not be indulged at cost of long term.
3, Argues both should be considered
Source for EU UK trade, talks about 'now more than decades far future.
Investment, argues EU reliable investment unlike other options.
Inflation question.
Important part to me, is question in case of a disaster, is UK better off with reliable but inflexible EU, or unreliable but flexible autonomy.
Summer winter fruits interesting, 'personally though, I'd say just find new ways to process and preserve UK fruits.
Pro questions TCA’s review mechanism ability to enact substantial change.
Subsidies
Questions UK ability to find success with different roadmap than other countries who achieved success
Note to self review VAT, I don't understand it
Claims Con DROPPED Labor demand, talent pools
Talent pool seems paradox though, Pro claims less people for work, but also claims more boat people
I'm not sure Swiss example works against Con, if Swiss are not EU member, then UK can follow their method of encouraging EU migrants without being EU.
Singapore
Argues EU handles Security/Human trafficking better

Savant Round 2
Defends long term impacts as more impactful. Gives the obvious arguments
Pro should use examples of nations failing at long term planning, though I think such examples are more common of 'extreme countries, such as ones with dictatorships.
Con might do well if he can show reliability of long term planning in terms of nations and decades. EU 'is always next door, reliable, even if stifling.
Con argues The CPTPP reasonable and projected decent alternative to EU
Vietnam
Argues Pro appraisal of VAT is short term rather than of changing market
Negotiation power to the UK buyer not EU seller
Attacks Pros sources for investment
Defends subsidies
Plant act, direct benefit partial solution to UK food needs relying on outside also trade with nations of similar laws
EU AI Act, stability vs innovation, stagnation vs growth, is big part of debate
Con attacks Pro sources, this may be pivotal part of debate, depending on how much Pro is able or unable to attack Con sources
Defends wages
Defends UK roadmap as being necessarily different from country example, but argues UK is following same 'principles, principles requiriung different roadmaps
Argues Pro’s source concedes “Higher rates could be linked to a greater capacity…to identify victims.
Argues UK border control improving

Thoughts Round 2
Short vs Long term
I think Pro should lean more into Stability, use historical examples more to emphasize value of EU being near. . . Also ironically far future predictions.
USA has history of central vs decentralized government and laws effect on nation, other countries have 'same history I'm sure, that could be drawn on.
Neither side has addressed national identity vs EU identity much. EU laws and open travel seem to erode national identity a bit in favor of EU identity.
Con might have done well to focus on degree of uniqueness UK has with history of Empire and colonies, Con 'does state some of former colonies as being trade partners.
Con might also lean more into nations outside but near EU have for foreign nations.
Con might argue food variety a luxury not necessity, and that variety can be created. There are many ways to cook the food one 'has. As is seen by nations variety of local grown food types.
Note to self review what is so 'damaging about being part of EU?

Whiteflame Round 3
Argues shorter term effects are known and the long term effects should focus on reliability.
Brexit harm is arguably 'temporary though, by Cons arguments
Argues Brexit GDP loss is 'known short and long term
IF the UK remains reliant on the EU as a market, doesn't seem so strong, as UK still able to negotiate with EU for better deal and find other partners.
Pro Argues shipping and distance costs. Value of supply chains near.
2023 vs 2025 sources, comparison, Pro defends one of his sources.
I'm not sure I find labor shortages argument convincing, I think labor shortages exist when country isn't paying working class enough, Con 'does argue current shortage is part of wealth shift from higher to working class.
There's 'always people someplace that 'can do labor.
Pro attacks Con investment arguments.
Argues Pro assumes UK will be able to 'find markets from their position as other countries have.
massive worker gaps,
38% of UK businesses are not growing and 12% of them shrinking
Switzerland, those job registration requirements affect only 6.5% of the workforce
Singapore, those levies are far lower for high skilled labor
that the EU has failed to detect victims (non-unique: the UK has massively underestimated its numbers
whack-a-mole where crises must be resolved by agreements that may never materialize (no deals with any of the top 5 source countries)
I 'think I might lean towards Pro in arguments. Though I still think he's wrong that the UK needs or would be better off in the EU
Still, Con has last word.
And question of who defended and attacked opponents sources better, might go to Con, but that is only part of argument

Savant Round 3
Argues long term impacts hit far stronger than short term impacts, thus reason to care about long term. Assumably even with less certainty of how long term will turn out.
Notes concessions and damages that would occur by rejoining the EU
Argues long term impacts and proven ability to plan for future is proven by examples.
It is true, I didn't see Pro point out many times that long term planning has failed countries.
Pro argument of distance easier for layman to grasp than investment and investment terms.
Con argument of nations with bad economies revitalizing through global market, convincing that UK can do so as well with it's already advantage.
Pro might have done well to argue bad state nations were only able to upgrade 'because their start was so bad. But that for UK it would be a downgrade 'because of good starting position. UK might not be able to leverage position higher.
. . . A human already in motion lets say, can maintain running speed, but still can't get faster.
A human not in motion can get into running speed, and is much faster than when stationary.
Already having motion or means doesn't mean one will improve, I am trying to say.
Pro might have done well to argue danger of AI bubble popping.
I think Pro should have focused even 'more on value of EU as near and stable partner. Pointed more to dangers of historical war, disaster, disputes.
Con argues CPTPP are rapidly growing, points to expected value of global market, and EU difficulty adjusting
Con points out UK advantages in bargaining trade with EU
I think Con does well to point out UK uniqueness, but could have done even more, UK is 'more sea and air nation than some EU nations? (I am unsure) but it possibly has geographic advantages. Also historical colonies relationship advantage.
Con argues EU often prioritizes nations other than UK.
Is EU lifting and securing UK, or stifling it for security that can be achieved without EU?
Con mentions UK global weight
Con addresses shipping costs,
Looking back, Pro 'bit slow to start with justifying why proximity means one ought be trade partner, losing ability to address Con arguments and sources about technology solving shipping problem
Subsidies confuse me on both sides.
Something both might have argued, is whether there are clear winners and losers in the EU.
If everyone wins at similar level, then might be boon to Pro.
If everyone wins, but some are able to leverage better, then might be boon to Pro, if UK could be one of such.
If everyone wins, but some are able to leverage better, then might be boon to Con, if they can show UK would 'not be one of the better off.
If everyone wins at similar level, then might be boon to Con if they can prove UK can leverage self outside of EU.
Pro does not dispute that the UK’s high VAT threshold (which would be impossible in the EU
Pro’s 2025 article cites a paper which acknowledges that uncertainty significantly declined after new trade agreements came into effect
Pro reverses cause and effect with regard to expenses—his source says that “ECB rate spikes” are causing the companies (REITs) themselves to become classified as sub-investment grade, not that sub-investment grade assets are leading to higher costs. In UK investment funds, long time frames will help to flatten risk
Pro drops my point that higher wages and competition for labor benefit the working class
quality of life, which is the highest value in this debate
Pro doesn’t dispute that Switzerland and Singapore have restrictions the EU would not allow—to emulate those countries long-term,
Hm, short vs long term. Pro does well in the short and now, Con in the long. Cons future 'are predictions though.
I am leaning towards tie, well, leaning Con.
Pro would have done well to focus even 'more on stability of EU and potential and historical dangers. Instead I think Pro spent too much time on criticizing long term planning as a concept.
Con disputes Pro travel sources.
Going to vote Con, I think Con did better in sources by maintaining own and criticizing Pros more. Pro criticism of long term planning not as great as could be. Some of Pros focus on proximity were a bit late. Debate seemed pretty even subject, but advantage to Con perhaps by going last.
Pro focus on short term vs long term might have been a bit of an error, and though they made 'some arguments that EU was good long term, they made a number of arguments against long term planning.
'Should have been ALL FOR short and long term, but focused even more on Cons 'specific method of long term being dangerous.
Alyssa
#1
Criterion Pro Tie Con
Winner
Framing:

Considering how critical this area of the debate is to both side's offense, I'm surprised by just how little time is spent in this area of the debate by both sides. While it's easy at a surface skim to say "sure both sides want util so let's use util to evaluate the round", the difference between how much leeway we give to short term harms in favor of long term benefits is critical to access to offense and weighing for both sides, especially considering that it's the crux of Con's case (accepting that there may be short term difficulties that enable long term boons). I would've loved to see more work done on this section of the debate by both sides, but as it is there's enough work being done for me to evaluate.

Ultimately, the framing debate ends up being a bit of a wash, which more or less favors Con by a margin. Pro isn't doing enough to show me why short term harms matter more than long term benefits, and Con is doing enough to give me reason to want to evaluate long term benefits, so they can weigh offense under their framing against offense under Pro's framing. To go a bit further in depth:

The framing debate comes down to two areas:

1. How reliably can we predict these long term benefits.
2. How much short term harms matter.

Pro starts with a pretty typical Util framing. Con's argument is a pretty typical Util argument - number go up good, number must go up, do whatever it takes to make number go up. Pro's responses are that a) hard to predict and quantify, b) we shouldn't sacrifice people now to make number go up, and c) por que no los dos.

C is more or less a wash because this is just saying that Pro can weigh offense under either framing, which Con doesn't really contest (and why would they? Con wants this framing to be the default. If they try to weigh offense under Pro's framing while admitting that short term things might be more difficult, they'll get massacred.) This line also more or less gets dropped by both sides in R3, so I'm not really seeing any reason to evaluate this as anything but Pro saying they can access both frameworks, which at the end of the day is ultimately whatever/slightly Pro favored - if it *does* end up being a weighing debate under Con's framing, Pro's going to need all the help they can get.

B is easily my favorite of the three responses, because it opens up the window to a potentially fun philosophical side-debate to compliment the main dish of number crunching, and there's insane practical potential for this argument within the realm of the debate: if Pro is winning that short term harms matter more than long term gains, then this creates a precluding effect that makes it so Con *MUST* answer *EVERY* harm in the status quo within Pro's case before I'm even allowed to read Con's case. Granted there are ways for Con to try and tackle this task (more on this in a sec), but more likely than not this would almost guarantee a Pro win.

Unfortunately, this argument just doesn't get enough ink on the flow for me to want to accept it. R2 is just a base assertion of it without much/any kind of analysis to warrant it, and R3 is more or less just a re-extension of the argument without much further elaboration or warranting, and Con's doing enough work on this area of the debate via just explaining util logic that I'm willing to grant Con access to their framing without having to jump through this additional hoop.

Admittedly there *was* an interesting route to attacking Pro's framing and solvency for Con in that Pro's case is explicitly *not* a return to the pre-Brexit status quo: Pro's case makes two concessions that didn't exist pre-Brexit. Are these concessions realistically possible for the UK to manage? Would these lead to more/greater harms in the short/long term than the reasons to return to the UK? Idk, I'm not an economist/foreign policy expert, but it *is* a pretty glaring achilles heel within the Pro's case and in that regard I think Con lets Pro get away with highway robbery (granted Con does briefly mention these points in the literal last round of the debate, but that's way too late. These needed to be brought up R1 preferably, R2 at latest, for me to want to evaluate them). If this had been more explored/won on the flow by Con, then this would sever pretty much any kind of link Pro has to solving the harms of the squo, and I can probably just vote Con here regardless of anything else happening in the debate. Alas...

Which leaves us with A, and this is where things get a little tricky. It calls into question Con's solvency, which is a fine argument to make even if it's not my favorite. Con's response in R2 is to show that, from R1, historically looking future forward has worked for other countries, which I think Pro correctly challenges in R2 on whether this is actually applicable to the UK or not. This also puts me in an interesting position where I have to resolve some levels of the contention level debate before I can even finish resolving the framing debate.

Con's response to this in R2 is that while the specific levers are different, the general principles are the same and the UK's version of this is tailoring to their own strengths, which is what the other countries did. It's hard to quantify if this *will* work from this argument, but the minimum argument of it *can* be done is being made, which I'm a fan of.

R3 is where I think this area of the debate ultimately falls apart from Pro because while Pro is making the argument I think they need to be making in that the UK has some pretty unique challenges in front of it and some pretty unique options for addressing problems that they're facing that these other countries didn't have, it's not as strong as I would like it to be. I don't think that Con is making the assumption that all the circumstances are the same - Con is openly stating the differences in the specific policies and what UK is doing that's similar is following the same basic principles while tailoring them to fit their unique situation, so more or less just rehashing the point that the circumstances between the examples are different isn't really a sufficient enough response, and I think that Con is doing enough work in R3 rebuilding the similarities and establishing the projections of the UK's investments in AI (that I *really* would've preferred to see in R2, though is still fine specifically here since it's more or less just a re-extension of the points from R2/answering Pro's R3 point of specific weighing against the harms of the squo) that, without diving too much deeper into contention level offense prematurely, that it's at least possible for Con to access solvency, provided that Con is actually winning on the contention level debate.


With that all out of the way, let's look at the contention level debate.

Overview:

I'm going to be pretty straightforward here and say that this was a bit of a nightmare to evaluate, and for more reasons than numbers make my head hurt. I think both sides could've done a much better job of weighing impacts in a way that allows me to evaluate how offense from, for example, trade agreements compares and interacts with offense from wage growth or labor deficits or security concerns. As things stand now, there's virtually zero weighing being done on offense outside of the specific issue that it's addressing to the point where not only do I have to personally step in multiple times to try and decide how certain contentions interact with one another, but I also have a really hard time finding a specific area of the debate that's actually a voting issue because there's almost no analysis being done as to what issues matter most. The closest thing to it only comes from Pro in R3, but this realistically needs to be happening at every stage of the debate. The easier you make a judge's life, the more likely they are to vote for you, so it would behoove both of you to be a lot clearer with your impact weighing and make it very clear what the voting issues are in the round.

Specifics:

I'm going to address the illegal trafficking debate first because that's the most straight-forward part of this debate to evaluate because, ultimately, it's a wash for a few reasons:

1) As weird/cruel as this is to say, at the end of the day I don't know how to weigh the impacts of illegal human trafficking other than a generic "slavery bad" implication, and neither side is doing anywhere close to enough work to quantify this in a way that I can evaluate if this is more/less/equally important to all the economic impacts being thrown around in the remaining 90% of the contention level debate. I needed to see a lot more/clearer impact calc from either side if I'm going to make this an issue worth pulling the trigger on one way or another.
2) It's also a bit of a case of two ships passing in the night. Both of you are talking about the mechanisms that your case has to solve this issue (Pro through the various EU-based tracking systems and Con through country-specific deals) without any kind of comparison about which is better or more effective. Con more or less just drops Pro's method, and while Pro's trying to contest Con's method, Con's doing more than enough work to show that the deals that UK signs are working, and just calling it a "band aid solution" or "whack-a-mole" is no where near a strong enough refutation to make me doubt this won't continue to be the case.

The labor debate is also a bit of a wash for a similar reason:

1) There's zero impact calc and weighing being done as to what this means in terms of the economy. Are we talking about a GDP growth increase/decrease? Are we just talking about more people having jobs? If the latter, what does that mean in terms of the economy? If I were to evaluate this argument in favor of Pro or Con, realistically, with neither side giving me any analysis as to how these arguments function, I could see this section of the debate functioning as an impact magnifier or mitigator depending on the area/which side's argument I buy, but I'm not particularly inclined to do that work myself.

Which leaves us with the actual economy debate (of course it's going to be the most number-dense section that I end up having to vote on...):

I'm kind of with Pro here in that I'm not really seeing anywhere within the debate Con is making argumentation that rejoining the EU doesn't solve for the harms of the squo. The closest thing to it is a lot of reasons why staying separate solves better as well as some reasons for why rejoining slows things down, but there's a pretty sizable difference between the claims "I solve better"/"They solve worse" and "They don't solve". This means that if I have a reasonable doubt about Con's solvency here, I probably default vote Pro.

Below is a list of all the issues that, at the end of the debate, seem the most relevant to address:

1. Supply chains/Trade Partners
2. Subsidies re-AI growth


For the purposes of my growing headache and decaying sanity (not to mention I need to wake up for work in ~4 hours) I'm going to keep this part short and elaborate further in the comments when I wake up. Poke me if I haven't elaborated by 12pm PST.

In short, I end up buying Pro's argument that the UK needs the EU as a trade partner and that it'd be difficult for the UK to shift their trade elsewhere. I also buy Pro's argument that looking to the historical examples here isn't sufficient evidence that the UK will experience the same growth (the burden of proof here is much higher than when I granted the argument a strength of link in the framing debate). I like Con's argument that AI growth does solve back for the economic harms of the squo and that re-entering the EU makes that growth impossible, but a) it only really shows up in R3, which is way too late for me to want to grant it offense, and b) is still pretty reliant on winning the subsidies debate. I don't see any direct response from Con to Pro's argument that imposing subsidies harms the markets, so it becomes really challenging for me to want to grant Con the solvency they need.

Which means at the end of the day, I'm left with enough reasonable doubt that I'm not sure that Con solves for the harms of the squo. Hence, I vote Pro.

I'm happy to answer any and all questions either side may have. And again, this was an excellent debate that both sides should be proud of.