Clarifying some stuff about Christianity

Started by MartinLuther

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#1 •••

The Trinity


This trips many people up because it genuinely doesn't make sense, but ask yourself on an axiomatic level if something can be true without being comprehensible to the human mind. If something can't be true if it doesn't make sense to you, that means you think you are intelligent enough that your intellect can exhaust all of reality, but the human mind is limited and fallible. So there is a difference between asking "does scripture teach this" and "is this the way of interpreting scripture that makes sense". Sometimes the way that makes sense is a way that distorts the higher divine truth being revealed in scripture, which gives us a limited glimpse into something beyond human understanding. To deny the Trinity because some heresy is easier to understand is to forget how far above human comprehension God really is.


You become like what you worship


This connects deeply to the previous point, because you must worship the Trinity to be saved (I will clarify foreseen objections in the next point). Only the Trinitarian God is the perfect epitome of love, and that is why all societies that don't run on a Christian ethos are morally inferior. What you believe to be at the core of reality shapes and is shaped by your attitude towards the world, which shapes how you think and behave. The Trinity means that God's personality is characterized by being a loving father, a brother who would lay his life down for us, and a guiding light who is always with us all at the same time. It is important that this isn't viewed in a modalist way because only a God who is inherently INTERPERSONAL from eternity can have values that are inherently outward-facing rather than inward facing, and its important that it isn't viewed in a partialist way because that would undermine the perfect unity and intimacy of God's inherently loving and interpersonal nature.


"But the OT Jews/early church didn't always worship the Trinity"


They didn't worship a God other than the Trinitarian God either, they worshipped Yahweh as he was revealed to them to the best of their ability. Yahweh has revealed himself more fully as Trinitarian and so we must accept him as Trinitarian regardless of what our human minds prefer to think. We no longer have an excuse because wise and holy men have articulated the teaching of scripture in clear formulas such as the Athanasian Creed, which the heretics object to not because it goes against scripture but because it goes against what makes sense to them, so humble yourself and learn the difference. If you are an infant and get saved despite not intellectually assenting to something like the Trinity, it is because you did not reject grace by actively conceiving of something OTHER than the Trinity. Adults that aren't severely mentally disabled on the other hand will always be able to think of something other than God to put above God, in the case of heretics it is what they imagine God to be if he was limited by human reason which becomes their idol, and by actively refusing to worship God as revealed they reject his grace.


epistemology and interpretation


Sola Scriptura relies fundamentally on scripture providing its own hermeneutics, otherwise you would be better off as a cath or ortho than prot. Every single denomination claims to have the Holy Spirit guiding it's interpretation, don't be deceived by your own arrogance, if you interpret scripture too loosely or bring your own assumptions into it you cannot know that you are more protected by the HS from being wrong than the denomination or theologian that disagrees with you. That is why the true meaning of scripture must be derived solely from the text itself, the genres being employed and the historical context thereof and not from your own opinion. When you do that you realize mainstream christianity is right about the Trinity, scripture teaches something beyond human comprehension and all trinitarian heresies superimpose on scripture various forms of patchwork to change the meaning into something more palatable to human reason. Yet ironically, all these attempts to render it more understandable subtract from the beauty of the Trinity, the most elegant and meaningful way to articulate it happens to be the paradoxical way because the implication of it reflects most clearly who God is as a being who's core ethos is love.


Sacraments


Now lets apply what we have learned about interpreting the Bible to baptism and the Lord's Supper. The Bible explicitly says baptism saves, Jesus also explicitly tells his disciples "this is my body/blood which is shed for the forgiveness of sins" when instituting the Lord's Supper. So the interpretation that requires the least mental gymnastics is that baptism is a supernatural event inseparable from how a person gets saved, and literally plays a causal role, and that when you consume the consecrated bread/wine Jesus's body and blood are "with" them. The bread itself doesn't have to transubstantiate because that imports a complex and assumed metaphysical framework and its literal enough if his body is just as much there as the bread is. Besides, isn't it so much more meaningful to have a baptism and a eucharist that actually does something, cleansing you of sins and providing spiritual nourishment and union with Christ, than to have a mere symbolic observance?


soteriology


This inevitably brings into question how we are saved, because surely it is more complicated than "baptism saves". It is clear that salvation is intimately tied to the forgiveness of sins, which the Bible clearly states is delivered by both baptism and Christ's body/blood, but how then is it possible that we are saved by faith alone and that there are people who receive the sacraments and aren't saved as well as people who may be saved without receiving them? It is because faith is primarily spiritual and not intellectual, faith is delivered by the Holy Spirit through the means that God provides and tells us of in scripture, which are the word and sacrament. Those who "receive the kingdom of heaven as a little child", or in other words do not resist grace but instead passively let the spirit work through the gospel and sacraments, will be supernaturally transformed by the Holy Spirit. Good works are necessary because the HS is not neutral, he will push you to improve morally and if you refuse you are resisting grace, but what makes someone go from not saved to saved is ultimately not an activity of man but a passive process of letting God sow the seed of the kingdom of heaven in your heart which happens when you hear the word and/or receive the sacraments.


free will


There is a false dichotomy between arminian protestantism and calvinist protestantism, both import their own assumptions into things. The Biblical position is that we have no power to save ourselves, yet God does not damn anyone just because he felt like it. If this sounds too paradoxical for you, you didn't learn your lesson from our discussion of the Trinity. Our will in spiritual matters is bound by sin, and we can only be freed from that bondage passively, it is impossible for man by his own efforts to come to faith. We do however have a significant degree of control over how stubbornly we resist grace, so it is simultaneously true that you have no power to choose salvation and that going to hell is your choice and not God's, before you are granted faith you can only be more or less open minded to it.





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#2 •••

Good points

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#3 •••

The Mystery of the Trinity

The Trinity is one of the deepest mysteries in all of Christian faith—a truth revealed but never fully grasped. The Bible gives us glimpses, not neat formulas, because what is infinite cannot be captured in finite terms.


John opens his Gospel with words that shake the mind: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God… and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us” (John 1:1,14). Here we see both distinction and unity: the Word was with God, yet the Word was God. The eternal Christ entered history, not as an idea, but as flesh.


Jesus Himself spoke in riddles that reveal this mystery. He said, “Before Abraham was, I AM” (John 8:58)—taking upon Himself the divine name revealed to Moses at the burning bush. He warned, “Unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins” (John 8:24). Yet in another breath, when called “good,” He responded: “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone” (Mark 10:18). Was this denial? No—it was a subtle challenge. If Jesus is truly “good,” then He must also be God, for goodness in its perfection belongs to God alone.


Interestingly, Jesus rarely went about directly proclaiming, “I am God.” Instead, He preferred the title “Son of Man.” This was not a denial of His divinity but a layering of meaning. The “Son of Man” is a figure from Daniel 7 who comes on the clouds with authority, receiving glory and worship. Still, when pressed, Jesus did not reject the title “Son of God,” but affirmed it (John 10:36). His humility was not in hiding His identity, but in revealing it in a way that required spiritual ears to hear.


After His resurrection, the disciples spoke plainly: Thomas confessed to Jesus, “My Lord and my God!” (John 20:28). Paul called Him “our great God and Savior” (Titus 2:13). The early church was convinced not only that Jesus revealed God, but that in Him, God Himself had come near.


Attempts to Understand the Trinity

Christians across centuries have sought analogies to grasp what is beyond human reason.


Relational roles: A man can be at once a father, a son, and a brother—three roles, yet one person. Similarly, God reveals Himself in different aspects without ceasing to be one.

Dimensions: The Son steps into our dimension, while the Father transcends in another dimension. They are distinct in experience, but united in essence.

Human nature: We ourselves are a trinity—spirit, mind, and body. Different aspects, yet one person.

Nature itself: St. Patrick famously used the three-leaf clover. Three leaves, yet one plant.

Mutual indwelling: The Spirit enters the Son, and through the Spirit, the Father is present in the Son. The Persons are distinct, yet they fully interpenetrate one another in what theology calls perichoresis—a divine dance of love.

Each of these analogies shines a fragment of light, though none can capture the fullness.


The Paradox of the Unlimited

At its heart, the Trinity is not a logical puzzle to be solved, but a paradox that reveals the limits of human thought. God is infinite, yet He enters the finite. He is unlimited, yet He chooses limitation. As Philippians 2 says, Christ “emptied himself, taking the form of a servant.”


Creation itself is a form of divine self-limitation: the boundless God makes a bounded universe. In the Trinity we see the same mystery—oneness that contains difference, eternity that enters time, infinity that wears flesh.


Near-death experiences often echo this: people describe encountering a Light that is utterly One yet somehow full of relational Love. They experience God not as cold abstraction, but as a living communion. In that sense, the Trinity is not mathematics (1+1+1=1), but relationship—perfect love flowing between Father, Son, and Spirit.


Conclusion

The Trinity is not meant to be dissected so much as entered into. It is a mystery that invites worship more than explanation. The early Christians did not invent it—they simply encountered Jesus and the Spirit in ways that forced them to rethink everything they knew about God.


As finite beings, we stumble before the paradox. But that stumbling is holy. For the Trinity is God’s way of saying: “I am not solitary power, I am eternal love. And this love has come near to you in Christ, and dwells in you by the Spirit, to bring you back to the Father.

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#4 •••

Jesus is explicitly worshipped in several passages across the New Testament Gospels, Epistles, and Revelation, where individuals bow before Him and He accepts their praise. You can read a detailed breakdown of these verses on GotQuestions.org.

During His Birth and Infancy

• Matthew 2:11: The wise men (Magi) enter the house, see the young child, and bow down to worship Him.

During His Earthly Ministry

• Matthew 8:2: A leper kneels before Jesus to ask for healing.

• Matthew 9:18: A ruler kneels before Jesus to ask Him to raise his daughter.

• Matthew 14:33: The disciples worship Jesus in a boat after He walks on water, calling Him the Son of God. Read more about this event on STR.org.

• John 9:38: A man born blind worships Jesus after Jesus restores his sight and reveals His identity.

After His Resurrection

• Matthew 28:9: Women hold onto Jesus' feet and worship Him after He rises from the dead.

• Matthew 28:17: The disciples worship the risen Jesus on a mountain in Galilee.

• John 20:28: Thomas worships Jesus with the declaration, "My Lord and my God!"

• Luke 24:52: The disciples worship Jesus as He ascends into heaven.

In Heaven and Eternity

• Hebrews 1:6: God commands all angels to worship Jesus.

• Revelation 5:11–14: Angels and all creation join in heaven to worship Jesus as the Lamb


......


Jesus demonstrated His absolute divine authority to forgive sins during His earthly ministry, explicitly proving that the Son of Man holds the power on earth to pardon wrongdoing—a claim that challenged the religious leaders who correctly understood that only God can forgive sins. You can explore a deeper breakdown of how Christ's forgiveness functions on GotQuestions.org.

Key Biblical Accounts

• The Paralytic at Capernaum (Matthew 9:1–8, Mark 2:1–12): Jesus tells a paralyzed man, "Son, your sins are forgiven," and then physically heals him to prove to the skeptical scribes that He has the authority to forgive sins. You can read the text directly on Bible Gateway.

• The Sinful Woman (Luke 7:36–50): Jesus tells a socially outcast woman who washes His feet with her tears that her sins are forgiven because of her deep faith, shocking the dinner guests.

• The Woman Caught in Adultery (John 8:1–11): Jesus refuses to condemn a woman brought before Him, telling her, "Go now and leave your life of sin," exercising moral and spiritual absolution.

Theological Significance

• Claim to Deity: Old Testament scripture states that only God can pardon iniquity (Isaiah 43:25). By forgiving people directly, Jesus claimed the divine prerogative of God Himself.

• The Cross as the Legal Basis: The theological framework of the New Testament teaches that Jesus' earthly forgiveness operated on the credit of His impending sacrifice. His death on the cross serves as the ultimate payment for all human sin (Hebrews 9:15).

• The Commission to Believers: Jesus later extended a ministerial duty to His disciples to proclaim this reality, allowing believers to declare God's forgiveness to those who repent and believe

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#5 •••
@MartinLuther
must worship the Trinity to be saved

To my knowledge the apostles didn't believe in the Trinity as such, but they probably believed in much of what the Trinity says about God. I could see certain beliefs that contradict the Trinity being heretical, but I think this point depends on what counts as "believing in the Trinity." For example, orthos and Catholics disagree on a minor point about the Holy Spirit proceeding from the son. Yet they still see each other as believing in the Trinity.

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#6 •••
@Savant

Did you read the whole thing? I addressed this objection in the post.

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#7 •••
@MartinLuther

The trinity is what sustained Christianity. Every time Christians lost faith in either God or Jesus the other filled into restore the faith helped along with the Holy Spirit.

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#8 •••
@MartinLuther

I did but my point is I think someone could be wrong about minor points of the Trinity or not agree with how it's presented but still believe in some of the core points. Like orthos not agreeing with how Catholics present the Trinity. So it's not clear to me where the line is for rejecting details of the Trinity before that becomes rejecting it.

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#9 •••
@Savant

Hard to reject the trinity when they support each other.

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#10 •••
@MartinLuther

Wow you are a new user and your typing style doesnt give you away at all.

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The US is a definitively secular nation, founded on complete separation of the State and religion. The Left Wing of US realise this but don't realise that pure freedom requires as low tax and free access to guns as possible. The Right Wing of US don't realise that secular pure freedom means the LGBTQ+ and abortion agendas both end up in line with US's liberty-first ethos.

It is left-wing to be pro-life. You are backing poor babies being born at the inconvenience of the already-born. Go figure.

#11 •••

You forgot to compliment linate who did a great job too.

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#12 •••
@MartinLuther
Sometimes the way that makes sense is a way that distorts the higher divine truth being revealed in scripture, which gives us a limited glimpse into something beyond human understanding. 


I see.

So are you claiming to fully understand scripture or is that you simply have faith in what has been written?

Do you put into practice what the New testament teaches?

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#13 •••
@Stephen

The HolySpirit helps you understand the scriptures.

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