Jesus Is Not God

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The Mystery of the Trinity

The Trinity is one of the deepest mysteries in all of Christian faith—a truth revealed but never fully grasped. The Bible gives us glimpses, not neat formulas, because what is infinite cannot be captured in finite terms.

John opens his Gospel with words that shake the mind: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God… and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us” (John 1:1,14). Here we see both distinction and unity: the Word was with God, yet the Word was God. The eternal Christ entered history, not as an idea, but as flesh.

Jesus Himself spoke in riddles that reveal this mystery. He said, “Before Abraham was, I AM” (John 8:58)—taking upon Himself the divine name revealed to Moses at the burning bush. He warned, “Unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins” (John 8:24). Yet in another breath, when called “good,” He responded: “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone” (Mark 10:18). Was this denial? No—it was a subtle challenge. If Jesus is truly “good,” then He must also be God, for goodness in its perfection belongs to God alone.

Interestingly, Jesus rarely went about directly proclaiming, “I am God.” Instead, He preferred the title “Son of Man.” This was not a denial of His divinity but a layering of meaning. The “Son of Man” is a figure from Daniel 7 who comes on the clouds with authority, receiving glory and worship. Still, when pressed, Jesus did not reject the title “Son of God,” but affirmed it (John 10:36). His humility was not in hiding His identity, but in revealing it in a way that required spiritual ears to hear.

After His resurrection, the disciples spoke plainly: Thomas confessed to Jesus, “My Lord and my God!” (John 20:28). Paul called Him “our great God and Savior” (Titus 2:13). The early church was convinced not only that Jesus revealed God, but that in Him, God Himself had come near.

Attempts to Understand the Trinity

Christians across centuries have sought analogies to grasp what is beyond human reason.

Relational roles: A man can be at once a father, a son, and a brother—three roles, yet one person. Similarly, God reveals Himself in different aspects without ceasing to be one.

Dimensions: The Son steps into our dimension, while the Father transcends in another dimension. They are distinct in experience, but united in essence.

Human nature: We ourselves are a trinity—spirit, mind, and body. Different aspects, yet one person.

Nature itself: St. Patrick famously used the three-leaf clover. Three leaves, yet one plant.

Mutual indwelling: The Spirit enters the Son, and through the Spirit, the Father is present in the Son. The Persons are distinct, yet they fully interpenetrate one another in what theology calls perichoresis—a divine dance of love.

Each of these analogies shines a fragment of light, though none can capture the fullness.

The Paradox of the Unlimited

At its heart, the Trinity is not a logical puzzle to be solved, but a paradox that reveals the limits of human thought. God is infinite, yet He enters the finite. He is unlimited, yet He chooses limitation. As Philippians 2 says, Christ “emptied himself, taking the form of a servant.”

Creation itself is a form of divine self-limitation: the boundless God makes a bounded universe. In the Trinity we see the same mystery—oneness that contains difference, eternity that enters time, infinity that wears flesh.

Near-death experiences often echo this: people describe encountering a Light that is utterly One yet somehow full of relational Love. They experience God not as cold abstraction, but as a living communion. In that sense, the Trinity is not mathematics (1+1+1=1), but relationship—perfect love flowing between Father, Son, and Spirit.

Conclusion

The Trinity is not meant to be dissected so much as entered into. It is a mystery that invites worship more than explanation. The early Christians did not invent it—they simply encountered Jesus and the Spirit in ways that forced them to rethink everything they knew about God.

As finite beings, we stumble before the paradox. But that stumbling is holy. For the Trinity is God’s way of saying: “I am not solitary power, I am eternal love. And this love has come near to you in Christ, and dwells in you by the Spirit, to bring you back to the Father.

One of the most poignant statements recorded in Scripture is Jesus’ cry: “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?” 

The Mystery of the Trinity. The Trinity is one of the deepest mysteries in all of Christian faith.

And very unbiblical.

Which is nothing more than a philosophical idea among much other Niceane dogma. And in my opinion it was a poor idea in response to awkward question such as those posed by myself above.

Deuteronomy 6:4 The Lord our God is one Lord.

Isaiah 43:11 "I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no saviour."

Joel 2:27 "You shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am Yahweh your God and there is none else."

Mark 12:28-34 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.

And from the mouth of Jesus himself.....!

Luke 18:19. WHY DO YOU CALL ME GOOD? JESUS ANSWERED. NO ONE IS GOOD- EXCEPT GOD ALONE"  

Who is Jesus pleading to while suffering in agony on the cross?

Who is Jesus begging while "sweating blood" through sheer fear of what was to come when asking "his father" to take away his burden?

I could offer many more verses from the bible. But I am more than sure that they would be ignored or even dismissed as being "taken out of context" as is the usual go-to excuse when all else fails. I'll grant you: Jesus was a son of god, simply because - son of god - is nothing more than a title given to some kings of the time. And I will even agree that Jesus was a king . But he wasn't a god.

But this thread is not about the imagined nor invention of the Christian trinity.

Christians believe Jesus is God because the Bible ascribes divine attributes and actions to Him (like creating, forgiving sins, eternal nature) and gives Him divine titles, portraying Him as God incarnate, the Son of God, part of the Trinity, who is both fully divine and fully human, offering salvation through His life, death, and resurrection. Key reasons include His sinless life, performing miracles, claiming equality with God, and accepting worship, all pointing to His unique divine identity. 

Biblical & Theological Reasons

1. Divine Titles & Attributes: 
2. Jesus is called "God," "Lord of lords," "Alpha and Omega," and possesses attributes like omniscience (all-knowing), omnipotence (all-powerful), and eternality, as described in Scripture (John 1:1, Titus 2:13, Revelation 1:8, Hebrews 13:8). 
3. 
   
4. Divine Actions: 
5. He performs actions reserved for God, such as forgiving sins (Mark 2:5-10) and creating the universe (Colossians 1:16). 
6. 
   
7. Accepts Worship: 
8. Jesus receives worship, which is only due to God (Matthew 14:33, John 9:38). 
9. 
   
10. Fulfills Prophecy: 
11. He fulfills Old Testament prophecies about the Messiah, but in a spiritual, not just political, way, offering salvation and eternal life. 
12. 
    

The Trinity & Incarnation 

1. One God in Three Persons: 
2. Christians believe in one God who exists as three distinct Persons: God the Father, God the Son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit, sharing the same divine nature (the Trinity). 
3. 
   
4. Fully God, Fully Man: 
5. Jesus's humanity (experiencing hunger, tiredness, pain) is crucial for connecting humanity with God, while His deity enables His redemptive work (Philippians 2:5-8). 
6. 
   

Evidence of Divinity

1. Miracles: His miracles (calming storms, raising the dead, healing the sick) demonstrate power over nature, attributed to God.
2. Sinless Life: He lived a perfect, sinless life, unique among humans (Hebrews 4:15).
3. Resurrection: His resurrection from the dead is seen as the ultimate proof of His divinity and victory over sin and death. 
4. 
   

In essence, Christians see Jesus as God's unique revelation of Himself to humanity, bridging the gap between the divine and human through His incarnation, life, and resurrection. 

Did you read #5 above, deb?

You could be right. The bible has verses that support both propositions. If we want to integrate them without contradiction, thats how christians arrive at confessed paradox. At least, you should believe that his followers thought of him as God, even in the bible. And jesus referred to himself as 'i am'. I like the layered meaning approach and finding no contradiction. If you wanted to take the approach only his followers thought of him as god that's possible, but the contradiction thing is an issue, but at least by the weight of the evidence you have a strong argument.

Id also add for an unbeliever you seem to have passionate views about this. Yet claim the bible is unreliable and such. Maybe your sensitivity relates to deeper issues with your unwillingness to accept christ, or jesus, if you prefer that reference instead.

Jesus is not God.

Was not.

He died.

 “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?” 

If that doesn't say Jesus isn't God I don't know what does without directly contradicting it.

Is this written in the bible? Or is it dialog in a movie?

The question of when Jesus became God is a subject of ongoing debate among historians and a matter of differing beliefs among Christian denominations

. 

Scholarly and Historical Perspectives

According to many biblical scholars and historians, the understanding of Jesus' divinity evolved over time among his followers. 

1. During his lifetime: Most scholars agree that during his life, Jesus did not call himself God, nor did his earliest followers consider him divine in the way later Christians did. He referred to himself most often as the "Son of Man".
2. After his death/resurrection: The earliest Christian writings, such as some of Paul's epistles and the Gospel of Mark, suggest an "adoption" theory, where Jesus was a human who became the Son of God either at his resurrection or his baptism, when God "adopted" him into a divine state.
3. Later Gospels: The Gospel of John, written later (circa 90-100 CE), presents a fully preexistent and divine Jesus who was "with God" at creation and made explicit claims to being one with the Father. This perspective reflects a more developed theological understanding within the early church.
4. Formal Doctrine: The belief that Jesus was co-eternal and of the same substance as God the Father was solidified as official Christian doctrine at the Council of Nicaea in 325 CE. 

Christian Theological Perspectives

Within mainstream Christian theology today, the view is that Jesus was always God, fully divine and fully human, from the moment of his conception (the Incarnation). 

1. Eternal Existence: This perspective, prominent in many denominations, holds that Jesus, as the eternal "Word" (Logos) of God, has existed forever and did not "become" God at any point in time. The Gospel of John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God," is a key scripture for this belief.
2. Dual Nature: The doctrine posits that Jesus has two distinct and simultaneous natures—divine and human—united in one person. His sacrifice on the cross is considered sufficient for all humanity's sins precisely because he was an infinite, divine being.

How much of Isaiah prophecies do you know? What precise names did it say the Messiah would have?

Chapter 9

The Prince of Peace^[a]

¹ The people who walked in darkness

    have seen a great light;

upon those who dwelt in the shadow of death

    a light has dawned.

² You have enlarged the nation

    and given them great joy;

they rejoice before you

    as those who rejoice at the harvest,

    as they exult when dividing spoils.

³ For the yoke that burdened them,

    the bar across their shoulders,

and the rod of their oppressor

    you have broken as on the day of Midian.^[b]

⁴ For every boot of a warrior that tramped in battle

    and every garment soaked in blood

    will be burned as fuel for the fire.

⁵ For a child has been born to us,

    a son has been given to us.

Upon his shoulders dominion rests,

    and this is the name he has been given:

Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,

    Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

⁶ His dominion will grow continually,

    and there will be endless peace

bestowed on David’s throne

    and over his kingdom.

He will establish and sustain it

    with justice and integrity

from this time onward and forevermore;

    the zeal of the Lord of hosts will accomplish this.

Isaiah 9:1 After the threats and predictions of sorrow, the prophet bursts into a song of hope and deliverance. He consoles the Galileans who have been deported by the king of Assyria in 732 B.C. (2 Ki 15:29). Another vision is given to the seer, and hope springs up in the hearts of believers: The Lord will set free the oppressed and will establish his people in peace. All power will be given to the mysterious child who is to be born of royal blood, the Immanuel who has already been foretold (Isa 7:14). This is an ideal passage for the Christmas liturgy and in fact, is prominent there.

Isaiah 9:3 See the description of Gideon’s victory over the Midianites in Jdg 7:16-25.

Biblegateway

 If you wanted to take the approach only his followers thought of him as god that's possible, but the contradiction thing is an issue, but at least by the weight of the evidence you have a strong argument.

His followers

Well, with what you state in mind and as I have already mentioned above #5, I can agree with the close disciple of Jesus Simon Pete the so called "rock" of Jesus when had this to say:

“You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”. Mat 6:16 KJV.

Then - for what its worth - we have Longinus at the foot of the cross after letting Jesus have his spear between the ribs claiming:

"This Man, was truly the Son of God", in both Mathew and Mark. And Luke implies the same.

As mentioned - Son of God - is nothing more than a title given to other kings in ancient times. Indeed I believe that at one point the whole nation of Israel were called son's of god. - and by god himself !

How much of Isaiah prophecies do you know? What precise names did it say the Messiah would have?

Irrelavent. There were many "Messiahs" before and after Jesus and all failed in their mission as did Jesus. A god, a Messiah does not make.

Incidentally. At the same time Jesus was said to have been going around performing his "wonders" there was another performing exactly the same "wonders".

Christ Messiah was an extremely special title. It was unlike any ordinary Messiah.

Yes, in the Gospel of John, Jesus makes several statements interpreted as claims to divinity, such as "Before Abraham was, I am" and "I and the Father are one," though the earlier Synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke) portray him more as the Son of God, with differing scholarly views on whether he claimed to be God during his life or if this developed later. 

Key Biblical Passages & Interpretations

1. Gospel of John (Strongest Claims):
2. "Before Abraham was, I am!" (John 8:58): This "I Am" statement echoes God's name revealed to Moses, suggesting pre-existence and divinity. 
3. 
   
4. "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30) and "If you've seen me, you've seen the Father" (John 14:9) are seen as direct claims to unity with God. 
5. 
   
6. Synoptic Gospels (Indirect Claims):
7. While not using the explicit "I am God," these Gospels show Jesus forgiving sins (a power attributed to God) and accepting worship, leading followers to infer divinity. 
8. 
   

Scholarly Views

1. Historians/Skeptics (e.g., Bart Ehrman): 
2. Argue Jesus did not call himself God; these claims in John reflect a later theological development by the Gospel's author, not historical fact, as early disciples didn't view him as God. 
3. 
   
4. Theologians/Believers: 
5. View these Johannine statements as authentic claims to divinity, highlighting a core aspect of Jesus' identity, even if phrased differently in other Gospels. 
6. 
   

In essence, the answer depends on which texts are prioritized and how they are interpreted, with the Gospel of John presenting explicit claims not found in the Synoptic Gospels. 

In the most critical moment of the entire Bible, the moment when Jesus dies on the cross, he shouts from the cross a phrase that can be puzzling to those of us reading the account so many centuries later: "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

The phrase is found in both Matthew 27:46 and Mark 15:34. The English Standard Version of the Bible relates it like this: “And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, ‘Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?’

Yes.

At that moment he realises that Abraham and Moses were a pair of lying shysters.

Jesus felt forsaken by God on the cross because 

He was bearing the weight of humanity's sin, experiencing a temporary, unique separation from the Father as He took on God's judgment for sinners, fulfilling prophecies from Psalm 22 and and entering the depths of spiritual desolation to redeem humanity. This moment, while a real experience of agony for the fully human Jesus, was a necessary act of divine love where He experienced the curse of sin so that others wouldn't have to, creating a path for their reunification with God. 

Key Reasons for Jesus's Cry:

1. Bearing Our Sins: Jesus, the sinless Son, took on the sins of the world, and God's justice required that He experience the consequences—spiritual separation from God, who cannot look upon sin.
2. Fulfilling Scripture: His words, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?", are the first line of Psalm 22, a psalm describing the Messiah's suffering, which ends with hope and praise, contextualizing Jesus's anguish as part of a larger redemptive plan.
3. Experiencing Abandonment: As fully God and fully human, Jesus experienced the horror of spiritual darkness and divine absence, the very state of being cut off from God that sin causes, to make reconciliation possible.
4. Divine Exchange: This moment of dereliction was not God abandoning Jesus, but rather God allowing His Son to endure what sinful humanity deserved (forsakenness) so that humanity could be reconciled to God through Christ's sacrifice. 

Contextual Understanding:

1. Temporary Separation: This was a unique moment of separation in eternity, a temporary spiritual reality for Jesus so that humans could have eternal life with God.
2. Ultimate Triumph: Even in His darkest moment, Jesus's cry points to the ultimate hope and victory found in the rest of Psalm 22, showing His trust in God despite the overwhelming suffering. 

Nah. He was a charlatan prophet who realised that he had fucked up big time and that the shit was about to hit the fan.

Should have stuck to carpentry.

Jesus felt forsaken by God.

And he felt that with good reason. "Ask and it will be given", we are told in Matthew 7:7-8

Well Jesus -son of god - when sweating blood and begging his "father" for his life soon seen that promise fly clean out the window . didn't he?

"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.”. Luke 22:42

Christ Messiah was an extremely special title. It was unlike any ordinary Messiah.

And where in any of the 4 Gospels is Jesus addressed as Christ - messiah? The words Christ and messiah have their own meanings and they are not "special" in any way.

The idea that Jesus is God is a post-biblical innovation, so you're not going to find it in the Gospels.

All four Gospels present Jesus as divine, but 

the Gospel of John most explicitly states Jesus is God, opening with "the Word was God" (John 1:1) and Jesus claiming, "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30), leading to accusations of blasphemy. However, the Gospel of Mark also powerfully asserts Jesus's deity, beginning by calling Him the "Son of God" and showing Him acting with divine authority, forgiving sins, and claiming unique status, even implying He is the Lord (Yahweh). Matthew and Luke also portray Jesus's divine nature and authority throughout their narratives. 

Key Gospel Highlights:

1. Gospel of John: Most direct claims, with Jesus identified as the divine "Word" (Logos) made flesh, revealing God.
2. Gospel of Mark: Presents Jesus's divinity subtly but clearly through actions and titles, portraying Him as the Son of God with inherent divine power from the start.
3. Gospel of Matthew & Luke: Also affirm Jesus's divinity through His birth, miracles, teachings on judgment, and claims of authority. 

In essence, while John offers the most theological declaration, all Gospels build a case for Jesus's divinity, with Mark often seen as emphasizing Jesus's divine actions and authority, leading to the same conclusion of deity. 

Jesus in the gospels also says "i am the father are one". and 'one' in that context didn't mean the same person but the same essence. and i think it was at that point that the jews tried to stone him for blasphemy.

What is the price theJews paid for stoning God?

The accusation that the Jews were Christ-killers fed Christian antisemitism and spurred on acts of violence against Jews such as pogroms, massacres of Jews during the Crusades, expulsions of the Jews from England, France, Spain, Portugal and other places, and torture during the Spanish and Portuguese Inquisitions.

Antisemitism finds its most sustained roots in Christianity.

The claim that Jews will forever be held responsible for the death of Jesus Christ, a charge known as deicide, comes from a verse in the New Testament, Matthew 27: 25: “His blood be on us, and on our children,” also known as the blood curse. Interpretations of the Gospel of John contributed to the demonization. In several places, it associates the Jews with darkness and the devil. 

Geneticists, doctors, and other scientists helped the Nazis seize on Germans’ post-World War I vulnerability and sell this ideology. Racial “health policies” sold as legitimate remedies for the nation’s ills sought to cleanse Germany of such biological threats, leading to the murder of six million Jews in the Holocaust.

And since the creation of the State of Israel, the Jewish state and Jews collectively have become targets of anti-Zionist extremists on the far-left and in parts of the Muslim world, which in some places has led to a mainstreaming of antisemitism.

Jesus felt forsaken by God on the cross because 

He was bearing the weight of humanity's sin,

Don't make me laugh. He was terrified of what was to follow after he'd been arrested. And when he went to pray - to "his father" in heaven to be released from his burden, the only reply he got was the sound of a breeze whistling through the olive trees.

"Ask and it will be given" sayeth the prayer. how'd that work out for the son?

For our sins

You have already told us that Jesus was crucified for sedition.

HERE>>>https://www.debatecraft.com/forum/c/religion/posts/ht/i-cannot-be-satisfied?page=3&comment_number=75

God did not forsake Jesus. God resurrected Jesus after his crucifixion and ascended him to heaven where he currently resides. It took 3 days which was why Jesus felt abandoned in the cross. But it ended well for Jesus.

God did not forsake Jesus.

Yes, we know most here can read and have read the bible for themselves, unlike you.

But Jesus in prayer asked, indeed he begged his "father" to relieve him of his terrible torturous demise. i.e. Jesus asked and it wasn't "given" now , was it? Also blowing the Christian idea of (1) being god & (2) the three persons entity, clean out of the water.

 God resurrected Jesus after his crucifixion and ascended him to heaven.

which is another thing that god forgot to mention to his mother "Mary blessed among all women", wasn't it.?

Even there Jesus did not know what was to come next after his sacrifice. But it ended well Jesus was resurrected and taken to heaven.

Even there Jesus did not know what was to come next after his sacrifice. But it ended well Jesus was resurrected and taken to heaven.

There a few thing wrong with what you state there.

Dust off your bible sunshine, you've' failed again.

(1) God knew and didn't tell Mary.

(2) Jesus knew he would be resurrected.

(3) The disciples knew because Jesus told them so. Although, when they heard he had "risen" they didn't believe it. Some faith in their master's teaching they had, didn't they?