Apocalypse Mafia - DP1

Regardless of what people want to do here, one thing that needs to happen is we NEED softs from pie, Jen, and Banana. Probably something a bit more from kohai as well. A mass soft doesn't work if half the player base are choosing not to participate.

Lol earlier you in your case your saying you don't understand something about my reads, now you move the goalposts. This is stupid.

I don't think this is moving the goalposts. I said I don't understand your reads, and then I clarified that I mean I don't understand the weight and reasoning behind some of your read changes. Those are the same point.

If you explained something and I think the explanation is weak, that doesn't mean I suddenly understand and agree with it.

tfym consistent progression? Town changes as they continue to think.

Yes, town changes as they continue to think. I have said that multiple times now.

“Consistent progression” doesn't mean your reads have to stay the same. It means I should be able to look at the progression and understand what new information caused the changes.

If you go from A -> B -> C, I want to understand why you went A -> B and then B -> C. That's it.

Except for the fact you were arguing I'm scum off this being too convenient. Now you're contradicting yourself.

No, I'm not. Something can be normal town behavior and still be suspicious in the way someone is doing it. I'm not saying “Magic changed his reads, therefore Magic is scum.” I'm saying the way you've justified some of those changes hasn't been convincing to me, and the overall progression looks convenient from my perspective.

That's the difference.

I'm not on Kohai. I have him null, and I've opted to move on from him. So you're wrong there.

Okay. That's fair, and I already said I'm willing to account for that. But this doesn't really address my actual point. The reason I brought up Kohai was because you were previously interested in him after moving away from Pie. If you've now moved on from Kohai, that's another read change I can look at and ask what caused it.

I'm not saying you're obligated to stay on him.

If you'd want to test, surely you'd want to move on from me then. no? CMon now,

No? Why would I move on from my strongest scumread just because I'm willing to reevaluate it? Those things aren't mutually exclusive. I can think you're scum while still watching your future play to see if I'm wrong. That's how reads work. If you actually think I'm supposed to stop pushing my strongest scumread simply because I admit I could be wrong, then I don't know what you want me to do here.

You're whole shtick here is trying to smooth talk, show a phony control over the conversation. You don't have it. your argument is nonsense.

This is the part I don't really understand. You're spending a lot of time telling me that my argument is nonsense, but you're not actually answering the central question I've been asking. What specifically caused the Pie read to change as dramatically as it did? Not “town changes reads.” Not “I've explained my reads.”

Not “you've seen me do this as town.” What was the actual new information that made you go from wanting Pie's claim and treating him as a significant scum suspect to calling him solid town? Because that's still the part I don't find convincing. And if you think I've completely misrepresented your progression, then show me where. I'm happy to be wrong here. But calling the argument “stupid,” “nonsense,” or a “phony control” doesn't actually address it.

Go ahead and refute my reasoning then. Tell my why my read is a bad flip. Go ahead.

I think we're getting stuck on the same distinction again. I don't think I need to prove that Pie is town in order to question your reasoning for the flip.

My point isn't "your Pie read is objectively wrong." It's that the evidence you're giving me doesn't seem strong enough to justify how confident the resulting read was.

If your position was originally "Pie + Kohai are my two main suspects," then you vote Pie, want his claim, and later get to "Pie - solid town," I'm going to want to know what specifically changed your confidence that much. That's a completely reasonable thing to question even if Pie actually is town.

That's a massive strawman. I said I was basing a lot of things off his pressure on Kohai. My error was basing it too much in the last game basically starting with the assumption Pie is scum. Once I got over that, yeah I can see Pie doing a reaction test, or trying to pressure kohai into a slip, or driving activity... whatever you want to call it, it achieved all three of those things.

Okay, this is actually more of the explanation I was looking for. I understand the distinction you're making now. You weren't just saying "I reread Pie and didn't see anything wrong." You're saying you initially interpreted his pressure on Kohai through the lens of the previous game, and once you removed that assumption, you thought the exact same behavior made more sense as a reaction test / pressure / activity push. That's a much better explanation of the actual change.

Where I still disagree is with how confidently you went from that to "solid town." I can understand why that moved Pie from scum to town. I'm less convinced it should have moved him all the way to solid town. And that's basically my entire issue with the progression.

First off I said it felt m/m or m/t. Obviously, I'm going to look at the other person after I find the other to be town.

That's fair, and I'm not saying looking at Kohai after moving Pie out is suspicious by itself. The reason I brought it up is because the sequence matters when I'm evaluating your overall progression. You started with Pie/Kohai as the main possibilities, moved Pie strongly toward town, then examined Kohai, then moved away from Kohai and onto other scumreads. Again, none of those individual moves are inherently bad. I'm looking at how easily the focal point keeps shifting and asking whether the reasoning behind each shift is strong enough. If your answer is basically "I thought Pie was scum because I was carrying over my read from the last game, then realized his behavior made sense as pressure on Kohai, then looked at Kohai and found him to be a tossup, then found other people I scumread," that's a coherent progression. I just don't necessarily agree with all of your conclusions.

You asked those questions in such a disingenuous way, I answered them and now you're saying it "doesn't ease you"... yeah I'm sure it doesn't lol

I don't really know what you want me to do with that. If you think my questions were disingenuous, tell me which part was disingenuous. I was very explicit about what I was questioning. And yes, you can answer a question and still not convince me. That's not me pretending you didn't answer it.

I actually think your explanation here is better than the one I originally understood you to be giving. It makes me less suspicious of the specific Pie flip than I was before. It just doesn't erase my broader concern with your game. So I think the productive thing here is probably to stop arguing over whether I "understand" your explanation. I do. I understand why you think Pie's behavior was towny. I understand why you looked at Kohai afterward. I understand why you moved on from Kohai once he became a tossup. I just don't have the same level of confidence you do in those reads, and that's why I'm still voting you.

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/22/2026 at 1:16 AM (post #241)

Regardless of what people want to do here, one thing that needs to happen is we NEED softs from pie, Jen, and Banana. Probably something a bit more from kohai as well. A mass soft doesn't work if half the player base are choosing not to participate.

my soft: mine is one of those apocalypses where the threat isnt really something you can prepare for in the normal sence

i think both of you are kinda talking past each other at this point lol

magic, i dont think lunatic is saying that changing reads is scummy. i think his issue is just that some of the changes feel bigger than the reasons he was given for them. i dont think thats an unreasonable thing to question

lunatic, i also think youre maybe giving magic less credit than he deserves here. he wasnt just like "i reread pie and decided hes town." he said he was putting too much weight on the previous game and once he got past that he thought pies pressure on kohai could actually make sense as a reaction test

i think the bigger thing for me is that both of you are starting to argue about how the other one is arguing instead of the actual reads lol

lunatic keeps saying magic isnt explaining it enough and magic keeps saying lunatic is being disingenuous or trying to control the conversation. neither of those things really gets us anywhere

from where im sitting, i actually think both of you look more town because of this

right now id probably leave both of you as town and look somewhere else for scum because i dont think this fight is getting us anywhere anymore

Banana's readwall in #122 removes her from my sus pile from now. All her comments there seem obvious enough to me, and she proved in Solo Leveling that she can give seemingly good analysis as scum, but readwalls are always a plus. This is just a gutread, but I'm calling that, if Banana is scum, her scummate is Vader. I'm not sure what to think of your readwall in #231. I'll have to ponder that for a bit.

Before reading #224, I had a mild townlean on whiteflame for reasons that I do not want to get into. whiteflame: if my guess is on my point here, it could be worth thinking about how you said your apocalypse is not one that a lot of people prep for. I would like Banana to think about this too, based on her soft in #244. I am not so enthused about your readwall in #224. I don't see JenKiggans citing his being used to IRL Mafia as 'pushback'. I think you should know that Banana can give great readwalls as scum. See Solo Leveling again. Pie has definitely pushed this hard this early many times unless I have Alzheimer's. That observation is so out-of-character for you that it's almost Too Wolfy To Be A Wolf. I absolutely think Mag1c could and would distance and quickly undistance himself from his partner by a country mile if he thought it were the right play. I felt that #168 was scummy, whereas I think you are claiming you see it as townie. I townlean Mag1c, but it's purely a gutread. In other words, I disagree with a lot of your statements and pretty much all of your stated reads.

Re: #125 - I did my mental math wrong, I meant put Pie at L-2 not L-1. Although I am still not opposed to putting Pie at L-1, especially with EoD incoming. I think we need a claim out of someone before the day ends, and Pie is my top choice.

Re: #128 - No way, this is the kind of error only a human would make.

My read on Pie boils down to whether or not I think scum!Pie would play this aggressively the game after he was lynched for playing this aggressively. I think he would. He's not new enough that he would overcorrect after one approach fails.

I don't care how scummy this will make me sound if Jenkiggans flips scum: I don't want to vote a new-to-this-site player on day 1 without overwhelming evidence, and I encourage scum to give them a pass on night 1 unless they claim a PR or something.

This is a pure gutread, but Lunatic's laser-pointing on Mag1c in #168 feels so scummy to me. I feel like scum!Lunatic doesn't usually pinpoint specific people for day 1 reads as intensely as he did here, but I get that he didn't have that much to go off of since his previous post.

Vader is null. Everything he has said so far is in line with what other people seem to be thinking, so not much to read off of there. I agree with Mag1c's #211 that Vader's opportunism in #207 comes off as scummy even if he was busy.

Mag1c's analysis seems good to me. I do feel like I have some gutread sense for when Mag1c is scum, which was proven right in Kohai's test game recently, and it's not pinging here, but Lunatic is tingling my radar for him slightly.

If I were a Cop with a compulsive dayvig here, I would shoot WF and check Pie or Lunatic.

My agenda for the rest of this day phase is to put the read-arguments over Pie and Kohai's interactions, especially from Mag1c, under a microscope.

Originally Posted by Thoth on 9/22/2026 at 1:42 AM (post #246)

This is a pure gutread, but Lunatic's laser-pointing on Mag1c in #168 feels so scummy to me. I feel like scum!Lunatic doesn't usually pinpoint specific people for day 1 reads as intensely as he did here, but I get that he didn't have that much to go off of since his previous post.

I would argue that this is completely not true of my meta. When I am town I am usually way more aggressive in reads, especially early reads. I was laser focused on pie dp1 last game. Notice I didn't start playing conservatively, until after I was recruited to the mafia in that game. I think aggressive pushes are more consistent with my town meta than scum meta. I can link you to any number of recent games of mine if you wish to verify this.

That said I don't want to be tunnel vision here, my gut has been screaming at me that its magic, but if I can tell that's not a popular consensus I can be talked out of this read. I would like a bit of actual logic and reasoning to prove my points are wrong, rather than just "not liking it" however before I could be convinced I think.

Originally Posted by Banana on 9/22/2026 at 1:40 AM (post #245)

i think both of you are kinda talking past each other at this point lol

magic, i dont think lunatic is saying that changing reads is scummy. i think his issue is just that some of the changes feel bigger than the reasons he was given for them. i dont think thats an unreasonable thing to question

lunatic, i also think youre maybe giving magic less credit than he deserves here. he wasnt just like "i reread pie and decided hes town." he said he was putting too much weight on the previous game and once he got past that he thought pies pressure on kohai could actually make sense as a reaction test

i think the bigger thing for me is that both of you are starting to argue about how the other one is arguing instead of the actual reads lol

lunatic keeps saying magic isnt explaining it enough and magic keeps saying lunatic is being disingenuous or trying to control the conversation. neither of those things really gets us anywhere

from where im sitting, i actually think both of you look more town because of this

right now id probably leave both of you as town and look somewhere else for scum because i dont think this fight is getting us anywhere anymore

That's a fair take. I'll consider this.

Originally Posted by Banana on 9/22/2026 at 3:40 AM (post #245)

i think both of you are kinda talking past each other at this point lol

magic, i dont think lunatic is saying that changing reads is scummy. i think his issue is just that some of the changes feel bigger than the reasons he was given for them. i dont think thats an unreasonable thing to question

lunatic, i also think youre maybe giving magic less credit than he deserves here. he wasnt just like "i reread pie and decided hes town." he said he was putting too much weight on the previous game and once he got past that he thought pies pressure on kohai could actually make sense as a reaction test

i think the bigger thing for me is that both of you are starting to argue about how the other one is arguing instead of the actual reads lol

lunatic keeps saying magic isnt explaining it enough and magic keeps saying lunatic is being disingenuous or trying to control the conversation. neither of those things really gets us anywhere

from where im sitting, i actually think both of you look more town because of this

right now id probably leave both of you as town and look somewhere else for scum because i dont think this fight is getting us anywhere anymore

ok, let’s move onto Vader then.

ok i think im done going back and forth on magic/lunatic for now lol

i dont really wanna vote either of them anymore. magic has explained the pie thing enough that im not seeing it as scummy, and lunatic seems like hes genuinely trying to figure out the progression

so im gonna focus on vader / whiteflame / jen and look for who is actually solving vs just reacting to everyone else

i dont wanna just vote whoever feels weird tho, i wanna find someone where i can actually point to a specific thing that looks more scummy than towny

probably gonna reread those 3 before i settle my vote

Originally Posted by Mag1cman on 9/22/2026 at 1:53 AM (post #249)

ok, let’s move onto Vader then.

yeah im down to look at vader

but i dont wanna just move onto vader because you said so lol. i wanna see what hes actually done that makes him worth looking at

ill reread his posts and see if theres an actual case there or if were just moving from one person to the next

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/22/2026 at 2:50 AM (post #247)

I would argue that this is completely not true of my meta. When I am town I am usually way more aggressive in reads, especially early reads. I was laser focused on pie dp1 last game. Notice I didn't start playing conservatively, until after I was recruited to the mafia in that game. I think aggressive pushes are more consistent with my town meta than scum meta. I can link you to any number of recent games of mine if you wish to verify this.

That said I don't want to be tunnel vision here, my gut has been screaming at me that its magic, but if I can tell that's not a popular consensus I can be talked out of this read. I would like a bit of actual logic and reasoning to prove my points are wrong, rather than just "not liking it" however before I could be convinced I think.

I will hopefully get to a deeper analysis of your points before the day ends. I just trying to get a readwall up to make sure I had contributed before EoD.

I don't think there is enough from Vader to look at much beyond what I said in #246. IMO, currently, the only people from who we will benefit by putting them under the microscope are Mag1cman, Lunatic, and maybe Pie.

ok ive gone through vader a bit more and i think im probably gonna vote him here

the biggest thing for me is that i dont really see much original solving from him. a lot of his reads are reactions to things other people are already talking about, and even when he gives reads theyre usually pretty hedged

the magic thing is what bothers me the most. i think vader was fair to question magics pie progression, so i dont think the suspicion itself is fake, but when it came time to actually vote he basically said he was good with magic if thats where we wanted to go. that feels more reactive than like he independently decided magic was his strongest target

and then looking back at the rest of his reads i dont really see a strong progression or a clear person he was actually trying to solve

i could be wrong obviously but out of the people im willing to vote today, vader is the one where i feel like im getting the least genuine solving from

vtl vader

VTL Vader

Leaving this here in case I don’t get on before EoD

Official Vote Count

vader (3/5) - magic, Banana, Thoth,

magic (2/5) - lunatic, vader

Pie (1/5) - Kohai,

Kohai (1/5) - Pie

Not voting: JenKiggans, whiteflame

DP1 ends in ~4 hours, at 09/22 14:00 EST

Alright folks, 4 hours left, and where are we? Let me catch up, but I suspect…no where

Originally Posted by Mag1cman on 9/21/2026 at 10:15 PM (post #212)

Still townreading you but I'm really not liking your disappearance when you don't really have to defend yourself.

If town doesn’t want to follow me, then tell me what to do. I’ve said 50 times to get Kohai to full claim, and crickets. We’ve been going in circles all DP, just like I said we would.

Originally Posted by Mag1cman on 9/22/2026 at 2:15 AM (post #240)

dude where are you. I"m starting to lose confidence in my townread on you.Like the second I townread you and the pressure disappears, you just disappear.

Im here and catching up

Originally Posted by Banana on 9/22/2026 at 2:40 AM (post #245)

i think both of you are kinda talking past each other at this point lol

magic, i dont think lunatic is saying that changing reads is scummy. i think his issue is just that some of the changes feel bigger than the reasons he was given for them. i dont think thats an unreasonable thing to question

lunatic, i also think youre maybe giving magic less credit than he deserves here. he wasnt just like "i reread pie and decided hes town." he said he was putting too much weight on the previous game and once he got past that he thought pies pressure on kohai could actually make sense as a reaction test

i think the bigger thing for me is that both of you are starting to argue about how the other one is arguing instead of the actual reads lol

lunatic keeps saying magic isnt explaining it enough and magic keeps saying lunatic is being disingenuous or trying to control the conversation. neither of those things really gets us anywhere

from where im sitting, i actually think both of you look more town because of this

right now id probably leave both of you as town and look somewhere else for scum because i dont think this fight is getting us anywhere anymore

+1 with this

It’s all semantics. There are bigger fish to fry, namely Kohai, Vader, and Thoth

Before reading #224, I had a mild townlean on whiteflame for reasons that I do not want to get into. whiteflame: if my guess is on my point here, it could be worth thinking about how you said your apocalypse is not one that a lot of people prep for. I would like Banana to think about this too, based on her soft in #244. I am not so enthused about your readwall in #224. I don't see JenKiggans citing his being used to IRL Mafia as 'pushback'. I think you should know that Banana can give great readwalls as scum. See Solo Leveling again. Pie has definitely pushed this hard this early many times unless I have Alzheimer's. That observation is so out-of-character for you that it's almost Too Wolfy To Be A Wolf. I absolutely think Mag1c could and would distance and quickly undistance himself from his partner by a country mile if he thought it were the right play. I felt that #168 was scummy, whereas I think you are claiming you see it as townie. I townlean Mag1c, but it's purely a gutread. In other words, I disagree with a lot of your statements and pretty much all of your stated reads.

I appreciate the in-depth explanation, though a lot of this just incorrectly interprets my reads.

To start, my point on Banana wasn't "she has a good readwall so I'm townreading her," it was that I saw her actively pursuing her susses with a lot of questions as well. I'm aware Banana can provide reads that look good in DP1. She's thoroughly capable. However, at least based on my experience with her, I don't think she's likely to go the extra mile and pursue these lines of questioning if she's scum. The fact that she hasn't revisited them much is making me question that, but only a little.

Yes, I would classify JenKiggan's decision to introduce themselves with a post saying that they are used to IRL Mafia and will have trouble reading behavior from posts alone as a bit of "pushback" on trying to provide behavioral reads. If you want to call it something else, be my guest, but it does sound like a bit of an excuse to get out of providing more reads.

I didn't say Pie doesn't push hard early, I said he's "rarely pushed this hard this early," i.e. he's usually not a substantial focus in DP1 for being behaviorally off. That's been my experience, don't know what yours has been.

I'm not convinced that scum Mag1c would draw more attention to himself by distancing and undistancing from his partner, especially since pressure was already coming off of Pie around that time. If the goal was to establish that distance early as a means of separating them, I think he'd keep it up when others are questioning it. You can disagree with that read if you want, but it's my perspective.

And no, I can't say I agree with you that #168 is scummy, and it's gotten less scummy the longer this argument has gone on about Mag1c changing his reads. I just don't buy that scum Luna doubles and triples down on his view that there's something wrong here, especially given how much he's focused on a pattern rather than individual posts. It seems like your reasoning for scumreading that post runs contrary to even your understanding of Luna's usual scum play, so I don't get your perspective.

Here’s your warning that you’re at L-1, so please full claim.

Also, can we plz disable signatures for Mafia games. Its cluttering the DP

Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/22/2026 at 10:01 AM (post #258)

Originally Posted by Mag1cman on 9/21/2026 at 10:15 PM (post #212)

Still townreading you but I'm really not liking your disappearance when you don't really have to defend yourself.

If town doesn’t want to follow me, then tell me what to do. I’ve said 50 times to get Kohai to full claim, and crickets. We’ve been going in circles all DP, just like I said we would.

At this point, I'm fine with either getting a claim from Kohai or Vader. Much as I don't agree with a lot of Thoth's reads, I do agree that it's best to give JenKiggans some space to post and participate more and I wouldn't support just pressuring or eliminating them.

As for Mag1c vs. Luna, if I had to pick one to pressure, it'd be Mag1c, but he's a secondary priority at the moment. Looking back through his posts, I can at least get some indication of why he changed his read up on you in particular. It's not perfect and I think Luna makes some valid points about his giving himself room to use flips strategically, but I'm ready to say we can just cross that bridge if/when we come to it.

Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/22/2026 at 10:17 AM (post #263)

Also, can we plz disable signatures for Mafia games. Its cluttering the DP

Fair, done.

I am a solar flare. My role is a 2x roleblocker. Do with that as you will. Gonna be slammed all day today

The logic was that if a flare was big enough it can fry EMPs causing a blackout

My votes not moving off Magic TBH. Will read more at lunch

Originally Posted by Vader on 9/22/2026 at 10:27 AM (post #266)

I am a solar flare. My role is a 2x roleblocker. Do with that as you will. Gonna be slammed all day today

The logic was that if a flare was big enough it can fry EMPs causing a blackout

Interesting, so a town RB. A solar flare does fit pretty well, and it is both scientific and kind of boring, so it tracks with what you've said so far. Sorry you're slammed dude.

I'm willing to place the focus on Kohai for now. I think Vader's claim is at least believable, though the existence of a fake claim for scum leaves the question open. I'll leave it to others to decide if there's more there than I can see.

VTL Kohai