Apocalypse Mafia - DP1

Originally Posted by JenKiggans2026 on 9/21/2026 at 6:25 PM (post #176)

No, I actually was sick. I just got out of the emergency room this morning so I started at the top and read down to the bottom like two hours ago

alr. You can read tone through text, you just can't hear it. It's harder but it's doable.

I don’t love Magic jumping from a vote on Pie to then coming off and looking at pressure elsewhere after like 10 posts.

I’m willing to excuse Pie’s vote due to his overall logic presented. I think it’s unorthodox (quite mean), but I think he plays to game the system and if that means he’s forcing a player to consistently break to give a key I think he does it to be honest. I didn’t like the instant pressure but I think reading into it, it’s not out of ordinary for him to do it.

As the Bible says, patience worketh experience so I guess through practice I'll learn to read tone to a greater extent.

I kinda half skimmed Luna’s post because I’m balls deep on a stairmaster right now but I think he has the same reason I had just said better

I also don’t have enough on a read on Lunatic yet

Originally Posted by Vader on 9/21/2026 at 6:30 PM (post #180)

I don’t want to act defensive/give strategy but I very rarely put votes to get L-1 to get pressure out of paranoia of scum quick hammer. I vote if I want to lynch

I'll buy it for now... what do you think of the game so far?

Well, based on what I've seen it kind of seems like Pie could be scum but I'm not claiming that just yet

Official Vote Count

Pie (2/5) - Kohai, Thoth,

Kohai (1/5) - Pie

JenKiggans (1/5) - magic

magic (1/5) - magic, lunatic

Not voting: Banana, JenKiggans, Vader, whiteflame

DP1 ends in ~19 hours, at 09/22 14:00 EST

Right now I think I have a lot more to work with. I also have a read I want to quick fire out but don’t

Simmered down on my Pie read based on his logic that he provided later on in the DP. It is still a bit unorthodox but not ruled out for him

I like Banana so far in this game. I think they came in swinging and got a big chunk post out there with formal reads and all that ASAP so I think they fall into my town pile. I also know banana scum tries to lure quickly in as scum and not jump in right away to action and avoid interaction so I think that aligns of my presumed behavior

Thoth has fallen off my wagon a bit and my vote still reads NAI

FOS on Kohai and you, but willing to excuse Kohai due to religious circumstances but there is some things I’m not loving when on

I have a read I am going to make when I get home and shower depending if I see something in the next 30 min. It could be a reach, but something I like to see

Originally Posted by JenKiggans2026 on 9/21/2026 at 6:25 PM (post #176)

No, I actually was sick. I just got out of the emergency room this morning so I started at the top and read down to the bottom like two hours ago

I really hope you are feeling better

Originally Posted by Vader on 9/21/2026 at 6:32 PM (post #182)

I don’t love Magic jumping from a vote on Pie to then coming off and looking at pressure elsewhere after like 10 posts.

What really bothers me is his progression from voting him to having him as town and then accusing him of a potential scum slip. Will do more in depth when I get home

If I had to GTMH pick a team it would be pie / Mag1c

Ok, I’ll give my full reads but I have an FoS against Kiggins. I want to be very light considering the circumstances, but coming back, saying you read for the last 2 hours, then the only thing saying is that “Pie could be scum, could be innocent” and then not pushing much thought is inherently scummy. If anything, it’s a vet trying to deviate the lime light from him so he doesn’t have to full claim. FYI I do believe his story and hope he’s better, but that’s just not the analysis you give after going 2 hours reading the DP

Originally Posted by JenKiggans2026 on 9/21/2026 at 5:06 PM (post #171)

Impressive detecting. I've always been really good at mafia irl but this being my first time playing it online it's proving to be difficult because I can't watch people's posture, follow their eyes, listen to their tone, etc. I might be a useless member of this round because I'm still trying to get used to it, sorry

Welcome - Are you aware of all the different roles and mechanics?

Originally Posted by Mag1cman on 9/21/2026 at 4:17 PM (post #172)

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/21/2026 at 4:25 PM (post #168)

I want to go back to magic because the more I look at his game, the more I don't really like what he's doing.

I don't think there's one huge smoking gun here, but his overall progression feels really safe. He's got a lot of thoughts and a lot of possibilities, but he doesn't seem to actually want to lock himself into anything until he knows where the game is going.The Pie/Kohai stuff is probably the biggest example of this.

Brother, half the people in this game haven't posted much at all. Of course, the reads are going to be early, and of course there are a lot of possibilities.

It's not as much about non-developed reads as it is about "keeping mislynch options open". I mean, I don't think this is a terrible response, but I also don't think you've really answered the part of my case that I actually care about.

I'm not saying you're not allowed to change reads. Obviously you are. I'm not even saying that changing your Pie read is inherently bad. If you reread him and realized you had confirmation bias, then sure, that's a perfectly reasonable reason to change a read.

The problem is the way you're handling uncertainty in general.

You keep saying "I'm not sure yet," "I don't know what to do with you," "there are a lot of possibilities," etc. And yeah, that's fine in isolation. But at some point I need to understand what you're actually trying to solve for.

Like, your response to my Pie point is basically "pre-lock-in vs post-lock-in Mag1c will have different reads."

Okay. That's fair.

But what specifically changed your mind about Pie? What did you find on the reread that made you think your original read was confirmation bias? Because if the answer is just "I reread it and it didn't look as bad anymore," then that's not really a process I can evaluate. It just means your read changed.

And the same thing applies to Kohai.

You say I'm trying to frame you as keeping both Pie and Kohai open so you can push whichever one is convenient.

Your answer isn't really "here is why that isn't happening." It's more "my reads are allowed to change."

Yes. I know.

I'm questioning why they are changing in the direction they're changing.

Magic starts out with:

"If I were to suspect two players based on what I've seen so far, it would be Pie + Kohai again"

Which is a pretty convenient spot to be in. Those are already the two people involved in the main conflict, so magic gets to have both of them as potential scum without really having to pick one.

Then he votes Pie to get a claim, spends a decent amount of time entertaining Pie as a possible scumread, and then suddenly gets to:

"Pie - solid town"

And honestly, I don't really buy the reasoning for that switch.It's basically just "I went back and reread it and nothing really struck me as off anymore." That's not really a strong reason to go from voting someone and wanting their claim to calling them solid town. And then what happens? Kohai becomes the obvious person to focus on. That's what I don't like about the progression. It feels less like magic is actually solving the Pie/Kohai situation and more like he's keeping both sides available so that he can move onto whichever one becomes easier to push. The claim stuff also bothers me. Magic keeps wanting claims from people, but the setup specifically tells us scum can fake one role/character claim. So I'm not sure why getting a claim is being treated as some kind of major way to resolve these reads. It feels more like a reason to put pressure on someone than an actual method of figuring out their alignment.

Pre-lock-in vs post-lock-in Mag1c will have different reads. The more I read Pie the second time around, the more I realized I had started with a bad confirmation bias on him. And so I flipped the read.

I also think his read on Thoth is worth looking at. Magic has Thoth as a pretty strong townread largely because of the role PM stuff, but we've already seen that the PM information itself isn't necessarily reliable. So I don't really understand why that should carry as much weight as it does.

You'd have to assume he'd have a claim ready that early. Maybe scum were given a full claim, maybe they were given a character, maybe a role. We don't know, but it is obvious that his soft draws a lot of attention to himself. "My role PM contradicts something in the OP"... just isn't what scum says.

I'm not saying "Thoth is obviously scum because of the role PM thing." I'm saying I think you're giving that interaction a lot of weight, and I'm not convinced the reasoning you've given for doing so is very strong.

You say "scum wouldn't say this because it draws attention to himself."

I don't really buy that as a strong town tell. Scum absolutely can make a statement that draws attention to themselves, especially if they think the statement itself will make them look town. And we don't know what scum were given, so I don't think we can really use "scum wouldn't have done that" as confidently as you are.

And then there's me.Magic's read on me is basically just "not enough on Lunatic" / "need to see more from Lunatic," and eventually I'm sitting in the same general pool as Kohai and Jen. But I don't feel like magic has actually tried to solve me. He's mostly just left me as a possible suspect because he hasn't decided what to do with me yet. That's the part that keeps bothering me. I'm not saying magic can't have wrong reads. Obviously he can. I'm saying his reads seem very easy to change depending on where the game is going. If Pie is scum, he can point back to all the times he suspected Pie.

I don't know what to do with you yet because I you've done a couple things that could be scummy and couple things that could be towny. I'm not swayed one way or the other on you yet. Not that deep.

If Pie is town, he's already moved away from that and can point to the fact that he reconsidered.

If Kohai is scum, he's got the Kohai suspicion ready.

And if Kohai is town, well, he was only a "tossup" for most of the game anyway.

There's not much risk in any of these positions.

Any bad townread, I'd argue is risky for me. Riskiest one is clearly Thoth based on you sussing that one. And you're ignoring that I've already put scumreads on Vader and Whiteflame.

As for Vader and Whiteflame, sure. You have those as scumreads. I wasn't ignoring them because I think they're irrelevant. I'm saying I don't think having two scumreads automatically means you're not playing it safe. I can have five names in my scum pool and still be playing safely if I haven't actually committed to why one world is more likely than another. And honestly, the "any bad townread is risky for me" argument doesn't really convince me either. Yeah, obviously a wrong townread can hurt you. But that's not what I meant by "risk." The risk I'm talking about is actually taking a position that can come back to bite you. If Thoth flips town, you can say "well, I had a bad townread." If Pie flips town, you can say "I corrected my confirmation bias." If Pie flips scum, you can point back to the fact that you suspected him. If Kohai flips scum, same thing. That's not me saying you're literally immune from being wrong. I'm saying you've managed to construct reads where almost every outcome leaves you with a reasonable explanation for why your read made sense at the time. That's what feels safe to me.

That's what makes me uncomfortable with him. I expect town to eventually have to put themselves out there a little bit and say "this is the world I think we're in, and here's why."

Magic seems to be doing the opposite. He's keeping multiple worlds open and letting the game tell him which one is safest to pursue.

Maybe I'm wrong on that, but that's the thing I'd want magic to actually answer.

Because right now I don't really feel like I'm seeing someone trying to solve the game. I'm seeing someone trying to make sure he has a reason for whichever way the game ends up going.

VTL Magic

Yeah, this is not a genuine case at all. I might vote you.

Why isn't it a genuine case? That's what I'd like you to actually explain. Because you've responded to basically every individual point by saying "that's not necessarily scummy" or "my reads can change," but you haven't really addressed the larger pattern I'm pointing at. You don't have to agree with my case. You don't even have to townread me. But if you think the case isn't genuine, tell me what part of it you think I'm manufacturing or misrepresenting. Because right now it kinda feels like you're more annoyed that I'm putting pressure on you than actually interested in figuring out why I'm putting pressure on you. And if your response to being pressured is "I might vote you," that's fine. But I'd rather you actually make that case than just threaten the vote. So yeah. If you think I'm wrong, make me wrong.

Originally Posted by Bullish on 9/21/2026 at 4:45 PM (post #189)

Official Vote Count

Pie (2/5) - Kohai, Thoth,

Kohai (1/5) - Pie

JenKiggans (1/5) - magic

magic (1/5) - magic, lunatic

Not voting: Banana, JenKiggans, Vader, whiteflame

DP1 ends in ~19 hours, at 09/22 14:00 EST

You have magic self voting, and voting kiggans. Is this an error or intended?

???

unvote

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/21/2026 at 8:04 PM (post #197)

Originally Posted by Bullish on 9/21/2026 at 4:45 PM (post #189)

Official Vote Count

Pie (2/5) - Kohai, Thoth,

Kohai (1/5) - Pie

JenKiggans (1/5) - magic

magic (1/5) - magic, lunatic

Not voting: Banana, JenKiggans, Vader, whiteflame

DP1 ends in ~19 hours, at 09/22 14:00 EST

You have magic self voting, and voting kiggans. Is this an error or intended?

Made in error

I will be on in a bit

Official Vote Count

Pie (2/5) - Kohai, Thoth,

Kohai (1/5) - Pie

magic (1/5) - lunatic

Not voting: Banana, JenKiggans, Vader, whiteflame, magic

DP1 ends in ~17 hours, at 09/22 14:00 EST

Alright, here's where I'm at on everyone right now. These aren't hard reads by any means, especially with how little some people have posted.

Thoth — Null

The role PM stuff is still the biggest thing for me here. It’s the main thing people seem to be clearing him but I’d like a bit more before clearing him myself. It’s not out of the realm of possibility for him to have said what he did as scum. I’m not focused on him though as if there is an inconsistency it will reveal itself in time.

Pie — Slight town lean

I actually like Pie a little more after going back through everything. He's been pretty aggressive and isn't really afraid to just go after people, which is his meta. And the bull headedness is something he would do as town. But I figure he’d deflate a bit after all the backlash after the last game didn’t go well for him. I’ll revisit this but for now I’ll give him a town lean

Kohai — Slight town lean

I'm probably a little more town on Kohai than I was earlier. His reasoning around not wanting to claim makes sense to me, especially with scum having the ability to fake a claim.

I still don't love everything about his game, and I think the Pie/Kohai interaction is something we need to figure out. But for now I'm leaning town.

Mag1cman — Scum lean

Still my strongest scum read.

It's not really one specific post. It's more the way his reads seem to move around. I don't care that he changes his reads — obviously town should change their reads when they get new information.

What bothers me is that I don't really understand what is causing the changes.

The Pie → town → potentially reconsidering Pie / focusing on Kohai progression is what I'm looking at the most. His response to my case also felt more like explaining why each individual point wasn't necessarily scummy than actually addressing the overall pattern I was talking about.

So yeah, he's the person I'm most interested in right now.

Vader — Slight scum lean

I don't have a huge case here yet. There's just not enough from him that makes me want to put him in my town pile.

He's also one of the people Magic has already called out as a scumread, although I'm not really using that as a reason to read him either way.

More of a "I want to see more" than me wanting to push him right now.

Whiteflame — Slight scum lean

Pretty similar to Vader. I don't have enough here to really townread him, and some of his stuff hasn't sat great with me.

Again, not someone I'd be looking to hard push right now. I just don't have enough reason to move him toward town.

Jen — Null

Honestly just don't have enough here yet.

I'd rather get more from Jen before trying to force an alignment read.

So basically:

Town: Thoth

Slight town: Pie, Kohai

Slight scum: Vader, Whiteflame

Scum: Magic

Null: Jen

And obviously I'm not married to any of this. Magic is the one I'm most interested in right now, but I'm not trying to make the entire game "Magic is scum therefore everyone else is town." There's still a lot here that needs sorting out.

Thoth null I mean

I actually like Pie a little more after going back through everything. He's been pretty aggressive and isn't really afraid to just go after people, which is his meta. And the bull headedness is something he would do as town. But I figure he’d deflate a bit after all the backlash after the last game didn’t go well for him. I’ll revisit this but for now I’ll give him a town lean

you sussed me for doing exactly this lol

So, do you find Kohai scummy? Why or why not? What's the plan here.

Also notice how multiple people in the thread are shading me. Not really something I saw in Pie and Kohai. Admittedly the dynamic is a bit different... it's one person to push vs two players going at it... but all I'm saying is there's more people on me than there really should be.

Got caught up with football and forgot to post. I’m good with Magic for pressure if that’s the direction we want

I don’t see the vote mechanic on my iPhone

VTL Magic

Mag1cman — Scum lean

Still my strongest scum read.

It's not really one specific post. It's more the way his reads seem to move around. I don't care that he changes his reads — obviously town should change their reads when they get new information.

What bothers me is that I don't really understand what is causing the changes.

The Pie → town → potentially reconsidering Pie / focusing on Kohai progression is what I'm looking at the most. His response to my case also felt more like explaining why each individual point wasn't necessarily scummy than actually addressing the overall pattern I was talking about.

So yeah, he's the person I'm most interested in right now.

Looking at how you formatted this post, you clearly read my reads... so what don't you understand about my reads? I felt I explained them pretty well. And as for the bolded part, I don't know what you're expecting of me. YOu can look at my behavior and give some sort of plan behind it, or I could just be town. I can't really prove to you for certain that I'm not masterminding some secret plan where every point I make is carefully crafted to manipulate you, and every little behavior thing isn't part said mastermind plan. It's unfalsifiable.

I also don't understand why you would townread me for stuff you saw me doing in previous town games. I go through my thoughts, then I go back and reorganize. You've seen it so many times.