Apocalypse Mafia - DP3

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ISO #151 •••
--> @Vader


Originally Posted by Vader on 9/28/2026 at 11:50 AM (post #149)
I have to analyze behavior and a lot of different things. I see an argument for either Pie or Whiteflame. I don’t understand why we are letting Kohai just slide the way they are though compared to the other characters


Kohai was double cleared by both Luna and WF. Only way he’s scum is if he’s exactly the godfather/lawyer. That’s hard for them to justify as scum. The idea likely was to get Kohai to join them to vote Pie or Vader, but Vader blew that up with his observation regarding Mag1c’s PM. Thats why you see the shift

Edit post

ISO #152 •••
--> @Kohai


Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/28/2026 at 12:50 PM (post #148)
I just wanted to bring up this post again by Mag1c wrt Lunatic:


Originally Posted by Mag1cman on 9/24/2026 at 10:25 AM (post #89)
Watch how Lunatic completely misrepresents me here. He is not town

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/24/2026 at 2:28 AM (post #81)
https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/87/apocalypse-mafia---dp1?page=5&comment_number=146

Pie as "Solid Town"

https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/87/apocalypse-mafia---dp1?page=6&comment_number=152

One of two posts he says I’m scumreading Pie, and I have Pie as a townread in this post.
https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/87/apocalypse-mafia---dp1?page=6&comment_number=157

Magic scum reading directly after ^

I literally have him as toss up here. Not a scumread.

Ignores the context of 156, where I noted a possible scum slip on Pie.

The reason being I could see one reason the possible scum slip wasn’t one.

Pie gave that exact explanation and the issue was resolved which I explained here

https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/87/apocalypse-mafia---dp1?page=8&comment_number=216

Which lunatic left out


https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/87/apocalypse-mafia---dp1?page=8&comment_number=212

This is me just putting pressure on him to show up, not a scumread. I posted the same thing a second time later, with the same idea.

Says he still townreads him but casting shade.

And then he conveniently leaves out:



https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/87/apocalypse-mafia---dp1?page=8&comment_number=223

These were my final real thoughts on Pie.

Idk the progression is and always has felt wierd. Then he goes full "town read on him" and protects him. The protection would have made more sense on one of his more consistent town reads like banana or thoth imo.


yes, I was suspicious of him early, and I did have a moment where a possible scum slip on my mind, but setting that aside, I mostly defended Pie. Why wouldn’t I doctor him? I already explained why I chose him over the other two. Banana and Pie was a closer decision, Thoth was obviously not going to be my pick.


Yes, I've read back through this progression. I've also read through the multiple follow-up posts where Luna acknowledged the lapses in his argument. Not saying it doesn't matter as a result, and I am trying to take Mag1c's reads into account at this point, I'm just trying to parse out how much of this specific post and the one he's quoting from is indicative of an effort to railroad Mag1c and how much is just selective reading.

Edit post

ISO #153 •••
--> @whiteflame


Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/28/2026 at 1:02 PM (post #152)

Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/28/2026 at 12:50 PM (post #148)
I just wanted to bring up this post again by Mag1c wrt Lunatic:


Originally Posted by Mag1cman on 9/24/2026 at 10:25 AM (post #89)
Watch how Lunatic completely misrepresents me here. He is not town

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/24/2026 at 2:28 AM (post #81)
https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/87/apocalypse-mafia---dp1?page=5&comment_number=146

Pie as "Solid Town"

https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/87/apocalypse-mafia---dp1?page=6&comment_number=152

One of two posts he says I’m scumreading Pie, and I have Pie as a townread in this post.
https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/87/apocalypse-mafia---dp1?page=6&comment_number=157

Magic scum reading directly after ^

I literally have him as toss up here. Not a scumread.

Ignores the context of 156, where I noted a possible scum slip on Pie.

The reason being I could see one reason the possible scum slip wasn’t one.

Pie gave that exact explanation and the issue was resolved which I explained here

https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/87/apocalypse-mafia---dp1?page=8&comment_number=216

Which lunatic left out


https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/87/apocalypse-mafia---dp1?page=8&comment_number=212

This is me just putting pressure on him to show up, not a scumread. I posted the same thing a second time later, with the same idea.

Says he still townreads him but casting shade.

And then he conveniently leaves out:



https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/87/apocalypse-mafia---dp1?page=8&comment_number=223

These were my final real thoughts on Pie.

Idk the progression is and always has felt wierd. Then he goes full "town read on him" and protects him. The protection would have made more sense on one of his more consistent town reads like banana or thoth imo.


yes, I was suspicious of him early, and I did have a moment where a possible scum slip on my mind, but setting that aside, I mostly defended Pie. Why wouldn’t I doctor him? I already explained why I chose him over the other two. Banana and Pie was a closer decision, Thoth was obviously not going to be my pick.

Yes, I've read back through this progression. I've also read through the multiple follow-up posts where Luna acknowledged the lapses in his argument. Not saying it doesn't matter as a result, and I am trying to take Mag1c's reads into account at this point, I'm just trying to parse out how much of this specific post and the one he's quoting from is indicative of an effort to railroad Mag1c and how much is just selective reading.


I must say I really dislike your constant shielding of lunatic this day phase

Edit post

"Kohai, your entrance to the thread was legendary, you had a solve and a winning PoE right when you showed up, super impressive stuff, even more so considering it wasn't even your objective!!" - Zrein

ISO #154 •••
--> @Kohai


Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/28/2026 at 1:10 PM (post #153)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/28/2026 at 1:02 PM (post #152)

Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/28/2026 at 12:50 PM (post #148)
I just wanted to bring up this post again by Mag1c wrt Lunatic:


Originally Posted by Mag1cman on 9/24/2026 at 10:25 AM (post #89)
Watch how Lunatic completely misrepresents me here. He is not town

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/24/2026 at 2:28 AM (post #81)
https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/87/apocalypse-mafia---dp1?page=5&comment_number=146

Pie as "Solid Town"

https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/87/apocalypse-mafia---dp1?page=6&comment_number=152

One of two posts he says I’m scumreading Pie, and I have Pie as a townread in this post.
https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/87/apocalypse-mafia---dp1?page=6&comment_number=157

Magic scum reading directly after ^

I literally have him as toss up here. Not a scumread.

Ignores the context of 156, where I noted a possible scum slip on Pie.

The reason being I could see one reason the possible scum slip wasn’t one.

Pie gave that exact explanation and the issue was resolved which I explained here

https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/87/apocalypse-mafia---dp1?page=8&comment_number=216

Which lunatic left out


https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/87/apocalypse-mafia---dp1?page=8&comment_number=212

This is me just putting pressure on him to show up, not a scumread. I posted the same thing a second time later, with the same idea.

Says he still townreads him but casting shade.

And then he conveniently leaves out:



https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/87/apocalypse-mafia---dp1?page=8&comment_number=223

These were my final real thoughts on Pie.

Idk the progression is and always has felt wierd. Then he goes full "town read on him" and protects him. The protection would have made more sense on one of his more consistent town reads like banana or thoth imo.


yes, I was suspicious of him early, and I did have a moment where a possible scum slip on my mind, but setting that aside, I mostly defended Pie. Why wouldn’t I doctor him? I already explained why I chose him over the other two. Banana and Pie was a closer decision, Thoth was obviously not going to be my pick.

Yes, I've read back through this progression. I've also read through the multiple follow-up posts where Luna acknowledged the lapses in his argument. Not saying it doesn't matter as a result, and I am trying to take Mag1c's reads into account at this point, I'm just trying to parse out how much of this specific post and the one he's quoting from is indicative of an effort to railroad Mag1c and how much is just selective reading.

I must say I really dislike your constant shielding of lunatic this day phase


...do you want me to just go back through the ISO with you? I'm acknowledging what I'm seeing. You can call it shielding if you want, but no, I'm not just reading into a single post and washing my hands of it. I'm reading back through their entire exchange. If you think that's inaccurate, tell me and I can walk you through it. I've got the time.

Edit post

ISO #155 •••
--> @whiteflame


Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/28/2026 at 1:12 PM (post #154)

Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/28/2026 at 1:10 PM (post #153)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/28/2026 at 1:02 PM (post #152)

Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/28/2026 at 12:50 PM (post #148)
I just wanted to bring up this post again by Mag1c wrt Lunatic:


Originally Posted by Mag1cman on 9/24/2026 at 10:25 AM (post #89)
Watch how Lunatic completely misrepresents me here. He is not town

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/24/2026 at 2:28 AM (post #81)
https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/87/apocalypse-mafia---dp1?page=5&comment_number=146

Pie as "Solid Town"

https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/87/apocalypse-mafia---dp1?page=6&comment_number=152

One of two posts he says I’m scumreading Pie, and I have Pie as a townread in this post.
https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/87/apocalypse-mafia---dp1?page=6&comment_number=157

Magic scum reading directly after ^

I literally have him as toss up here. Not a scumread.

Ignores the context of 156, where I noted a possible scum slip on Pie.

The reason being I could see one reason the possible scum slip wasn’t one.

Pie gave that exact explanation and the issue was resolved which I explained here

https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/87/apocalypse-mafia---dp1?page=8&comment_number=216

Which lunatic left out


https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/87/apocalypse-mafia---dp1?page=8&comment_number=212

This is me just putting pressure on him to show up, not a scumread. I posted the same thing a second time later, with the same idea.

Says he still townreads him but casting shade.

And then he conveniently leaves out:



https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/87/apocalypse-mafia---dp1?page=8&comment_number=223

These were my final real thoughts on Pie.

Idk the progression is and always has felt wierd. Then he goes full "town read on him" and protects him. The protection would have made more sense on one of his more consistent town reads like banana or thoth imo.


yes, I was suspicious of him early, and I did have a moment where a possible scum slip on my mind, but setting that aside, I mostly defended Pie. Why wouldn’t I doctor him? I already explained why I chose him over the other two. Banana and Pie was a closer decision, Thoth was obviously not going to be my pick.

Yes, I've read back through this progression. I've also read through the multiple follow-up posts where Luna acknowledged the lapses in his argument. Not saying it doesn't matter as a result, and I am trying to take Mag1c's reads into account at this point, I'm just trying to parse out how much of this specific post and the one he's quoting from is indicative of an effort to railroad Mag1c and how much is just selective reading.

I must say I really dislike your constant shielding of lunatic this day phase

...do you want me to just go back through the ISO with you? I'm acknowledging what I'm seeing. You can call it shielding if you want, but no, I'm not just reading into a single post and washing my hands of it. I'm reading back through their entire exchange. If you think that's inaccurate, tell me and I can walk you through it. I've got the time.


Do you honestly believe luna is town? If so, I want to hear your town case on luna

Edit post

"Kohai, your entrance to the thread was legendary, you had a solve and a winning PoE right when you showed up, super impressive stuff, even more so considering it wasn't even your objective!!" - Zrein

ISO #156 •••
--> @Vader
Originally Posted by Vader on 9/28/2026 at 12:50 PM (post #149)
I have to analyze behavior and a lot of different things. I see an argument for either Pie or Whiteflame. I don’t understand why we are letting Kohai just slide the way they are though compared to the other characters


I've said it before that I don't think we should let Kohai slide, he's just not the focus of my attention at this point. Neither are you. My focus is on what I know: there are too many investigative claims and at least one of them (Pie and Luna) is supported by your Miller claim. I have a very hard time believing that both a Dreamer and a Cop exist in this game, but one must, so I'm evaluating which of them is least likely to be real.


As for you and Kohai, I can see an argument for either of you being plausibly paired with Pie, though the case of a pairing with Luna is harder to buy for either of you, at least behaviorally. It's part of the reason I'm sussing Pie more than I am Luna.


Regarding why I saw Kohai as town for as long as I did, that's down to him being my only green check up until this DP. Now that I have one on both you and Kohai, I'm reconsidering my read on him, since both of you have the same evidence for you being town from where I'm sitting. The main difference is the green check from Luna and, if it's a given there's a Miller in this game, then it's probably a given there's a GF or Lawyer on the scum team. Pie's own PM where a Miller was confirmed to him apparently mentions a GF. I can't ignore that.

Edit post

ISO #157 •••
--> @Kohai


Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/28/2026 at 1:13 PM (post #155)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/28/2026 at 1:12 PM (post #154)

Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/28/2026 at 1:10 PM (post #153)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/28/2026 at 1:02 PM (post #152)

Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/28/2026 at 12:50 PM (post #148)
I just wanted to bring up this post again by Mag1c wrt Lunatic:


Originally Posted by Mag1cman on 9/24/2026 at 10:25 AM (post #89)
Watch how Lunatic completely misrepresents me here. He is not town

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/24/2026 at 2:28 AM (post #81)
https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/87/apocalypse-mafia---dp1?page=5&comment_number=146

Pie as "Solid Town"

https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/87/apocalypse-mafia---dp1?page=6&comment_number=152

One of two posts he says I’m scumreading Pie, and I have Pie as a townread in this post.
https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/87/apocalypse-mafia---dp1?page=6&comment_number=157

Magic scum reading directly after ^

I literally have him as toss up here. Not a scumread.

Ignores the context of 156, where I noted a possible scum slip on Pie.

The reason being I could see one reason the possible scum slip wasn’t one.

Pie gave that exact explanation and the issue was resolved which I explained here

https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/87/apocalypse-mafia---dp1?page=8&comment_number=216

Which lunatic left out


https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/87/apocalypse-mafia---dp1?page=8&comment_number=212

This is me just putting pressure on him to show up, not a scumread. I posted the same thing a second time later, with the same idea.

Says he still townreads him but casting shade.

And then he conveniently leaves out:



https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/87/apocalypse-mafia---dp1?page=8&comment_number=223

These were my final real thoughts on Pie.

Idk the progression is and always has felt wierd. Then he goes full "town read on him" and protects him. The protection would have made more sense on one of his more consistent town reads like banana or thoth imo.


yes, I was suspicious of him early, and I did have a moment where a possible scum slip on my mind, but setting that aside, I mostly defended Pie. Why wouldn’t I doctor him? I already explained why I chose him over the other two. Banana and Pie was a closer decision, Thoth was obviously not going to be my pick.

Yes, I've read back through this progression. I've also read through the multiple follow-up posts where Luna acknowledged the lapses in his argument. Not saying it doesn't matter as a result, and I am trying to take Mag1c's reads into account at this point, I'm just trying to parse out how much of this specific post and the one he's quoting from is indicative of an effort to railroad Mag1c and how much is just selective reading.

I must say I really dislike your constant shielding of lunatic this day phase

...do you want me to just go back through the ISO with you? I'm acknowledging what I'm seeing. You can call it shielding if you want, but no, I'm not just reading into a single post and washing my hands of it. I'm reading back through their entire exchange. If you think that's inaccurate, tell me and I can walk you through it. I've got the time.

Do you honestly believe luna is town? If so, I want to hear your town case on luna


Did you see where I said I'm going to work through an ISO on Luna in post #145? It's going to take me a while, but I'll make whatever case comes of it after I finish. I'd prefer to give you something complete if possible.

Edit post

ISO #158 •••
--> @ILikePie5, @Lunatic, @Vader, @whiteflame

A bit over 24 hours left.

Edit post

"Kohai, your entrance to the thread was legendary, you had a solve and a winning PoE right when you showed up, super impressive stuff, even more so considering it wasn't even your objective!!" - Zrein

ISO #159 •••
--> @Kohai


Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/28/2026 at 2:32 PM (post #158)
A bit over 24 hours left.


Im heavily leaning towards WF right now. Would like to hear where Vader’s head is at before voting.


Where are you at right?

Edit post

ISO #160 •••

I'm still at work, but I'm working on the ISO bit by bit. I intend to post thoughts tonight.

Edit post

ISO #161 •••
--> @ILikePie5


Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/28/2026 at 4:06 PM (post #159)

Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/28/2026 at 2:32 PM (post #158)
A bit over 24 hours left.

Im heavily leaning towards WF right now. Would like to hear where Vader’s head is at before voting.

Where are you at right?

I’m still coming to a wf / Luna team as the only team that makes sense.


The issue is if you were scum with Vader 2 and the plan was for your partner to SOP claim miller then you would have talked to your buddy before hand and told them to SOP claim.


Vader’s predecessor did talk some and had some time.


Unless there was no coordination between you I feel you and Vader are strongly unpaired.

Edit post

"Kohai, your entrance to the thread was legendary, you had a solve and a winning PoE right when you showed up, super impressive stuff, even more so considering it wasn't even your objective!!" - Zrein

ISO #162 •••

Im down to lynch pie or kohai.

Edit post

In loving Memory of Lannan and Ajab, fallen debaters.

ISO #163 •••

Official Vote Count


Not voting: Vader (2), whiteflame, Kohai, lunatic, Pie,


This DP ends in ~26 hours. DP3 ends 09/29 18:30 EDT.


Edit post

ISO #164 •••
--> @ILikePie5, @Vader

It should be painfully obvious that it’s just wf / luna.


Notice they wont sus each other and have been hard shielding each other while casting shade on everyone else.


Reading EOD - Vader’s reaction does feel quite town.


Pie / Vader are never a team because of what I mentioned in the previous post. If the scum plan was to fake claim miller then pie would tell vader1 to SOP claim.


The fact there was no SOP claim from bedore indicates that scum most likely was not planning on tbe fake miller claim and rheu likelt didnt know our meta to SOP claim.


Hence WF / Luna is my solve

Edit post

"Kohai, your entrance to the thread was legendary, you had a solve and a winning PoE right when you showed up, super impressive stuff, even more so considering it wasn't even your objective!!" - Zrein

ISO #165 •••

I've gone back through the Pie/Kohai stuff and I keep coming back to the same thing: I think these two could very easily be partners.

The DP1 fight looks way better as distancing to me now. Pie jumps on Kohai, Kohai fires right back, and suddenly you've got this nice little "look, we're obviously fighting" dynamic between them. But neither one actually needs to go all the way with it. Pie gets credit for pushing scum, Kohai gets to look like he's defending himself. Pretty fucking convenient.

And look at where we are now. Kohai is sitting on my green while also telling everyone that my green might not mean shit because GF exists. Like... pick one lol. If my result is unreliable, then why are you using it to take yourself out of the POE?

Then he gets to sit there and point at me, Vader, Whiteflame, whatever, while he's basically considered untouchable. That's a hell of a position for scum to be in.

I'm not saying "they fought in DP1, so they're partners." That's lazy as shit. I'm saying the whole progression makes sense if that fight was manufactured separation.

Especially if we lynch pie and if Pie flips scum, Kohai is absolutely the first person I'm looking at. I don't think we should keep giving him a free pass because the checks are convenient for him.

Edit post

In loving Memory of Lannan and Ajab, fallen debaters.

ISO #166 •••

Alright, ISO for Luna:


Good deal of early softing that is in line with the character. I couldn't find anything that indicated Cop very early, but I wouldn't expect him to breadcrumb that role, just as I wouldn't expect Pie to do so for the Dreamer.


Some early sussing of the potential Kohai and Pie pairing before largely shifting focus to Mag1c in DP1. From that point on, it's largely a prolonged back and forth where both sides seem to argue past each other. Banana even mentioned this in post 245, and I basically agree with her perception: that Mag1c was making bigger changes to his reads than Luna thought were justified, and that Luna was ignoring or missing some of the justification Mag1c gave for those changes. After that, Luna largely dropped the issue (it was close to the end of the DP) and refocused his attention on Vader 1.0. He placed a vote there about two hours out from the end with some justification based on behavior (mainly reactivity) and concerns about his claim. I don't think that stood out as unreasonable, especially given the short time before the end of the DP.


DP2 started with individualized sets of questions for those left alive. Didn't seem like he used the answers much going forward, but I think these were more for engagement. There was some early frustration with Mag1c being antagonistic to those questions. That was followed by Pie's reveal and Mag1c claiming, which Luna acknowledged was probably legit in the absence of any other protective roles. Despite a lot of acknowledged behavioral scumreads that kept him in null territory, Luna dropped Mag1c as a potential lynch after that.


Attention largely shifted to Pie from there. That started with just seeking a claim, but shifted more into a scumread territory along with Kohai for distinct reasons. Kohai was because of the Tree Stump claim and a lack of clarity on his reads at the time, while Pie was more an issue of how big of a shift Pie was making in his reads based on the fact that he'd been visited. 


In terms of softing his role, Luna gave some indication of that by putting a slight town on Vader 2.0 in his reads mid-DP2 before just outright saying "I mean just because a cop hasn't claimed doesn't mean there isn't one lol" in post 222. You could argue that it was low-ish risk at that point - he didn't know my claim and Pie hadn't yet full claimed, but he knew Pie was a role that somehow registered a visit and I'd mentioned my own uncertainties with Vader 2.0. It's absolutely possible that he just saw the opportunity and took it. The vote at the end of the DP was rushed, largely just joined the wagon on Thoth saying that the Vanilla + Miller situation doesn't make a whole lot of sense in a rolemad game. Not the best reasoning, but I think we were all scrambling at that point. Fully gave away that he was Cop before the end of the DP.


DP3 looks largely consistent with his previous reads. I don't see any major shifts that led to him sussing both Pie and Kohai this DP, and that's where he's landed and largely stayed. Kohai characterized it as "panic mode" when it's largely just an extension of the obvious reads. Plus, especially from his perspective, a claimed Dreamer necessarily should be sus (overlapping modes of investigation, including him in the result) and a Miller less so (especially given that Vader 2.0 claimed well before he did). I'm not entirely clear on why he believes I'm town. He's sussing Kohai despite investigating him positive, but isn't sussing me despite receiving the same result. I think I know some behavioral reasons why he might be town or at least nullreading me, but it's something I'll admit I'm a little wary of.

Edit post

ISO #167 •••
--> @Kohai


Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/28/2026 at 4:31 PM (post #164)
It should be painfully obvious that it’s just wf / luna.

Notice they wont sus each other and have been hard shielding each other while casting shade on everyone else.


Give me one example of me "hard shielding" Luna. Hell, give an example of Luna "hard shielding" me. The most I can think of is my providing context for an argument between Mag1c and Luna, the result of which was a nullread of that single conversation.


Reading EOD - Vader’s reaction does feel quite town.


Funny, you called it out as feeling "so fucking fake" in post 428 last DP. So now you think Vader's reaction was genuine? What changed?


Pie / Vader are never a team because of what I mentioned in the previous post. If the scum plan was to fake claim miller then pie would tell vader1 to SOP claim.

The fact there was no SOP claim from bedore indicates that scum most likely was not planning on tbe fake miller claim and rheu likelt didnt know our meta to SOP claim.


This... doesn't make any sense. Vader 1.0 flipped town. He wasn't in a scum chat. The scenario here is that, when he swapped in for Kiggans, Vader 2.0 could have become scum and thus been told to fake claim Miller as soon as he got on, which he did. I think he'd SOP claim that shit regardless, and the more I think about it, the less I buy that his claim was a scum gambit. Now if your point is that Pie would have told Kiggans to fake claim Miller in this scenario, I agree, he would. And I don't think Kiggans would be able to ignore constant pings on his Discord if that was the plan.


Hence WF / Luna is my solve


Funny, I don't see an argument for why either of us are sus here beyond the claim that we've defended each other. I also don't see any reasoning for why you aren't considering Pie.


Pie has said that the Dreamer in this game is different from all other Dreamers he's ever seen since it is affected by a Miller. Pie has stated that his PM literally included as part of his justification confirmation of the existence of a Miller in this game. Both of these are required to buy his role despite existing in no other games in the history of this site, DART, or anything I can recall from games on DDO. A Cop requires neither. Why do you believe both of these are more likely than the existence of a Cop?

Edit post

ISO #168 •••

There is 0 evidence of me or Whiteflame defending each other or even overtly town reading each other.


Whiteflame not being my primary interest doesn’t mean I am shielding him. The argument reeks of desperation

Edit post

In loving Memory of Lannan and Ajab, fallen debaters.

ISO #169 •••
--> @Lunatic


Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/28/2026 at 9:33 PM (post #168)
There is 0 evidence of me or Whiteflame defending each other or even overtly town reading each other.

Whiteflame not being my primary interest doesn’t mean I am shielding him. The argument reeks of desperation


Ok so answer: What is your read on wf and why?

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"Kohai, your entrance to the thread was legendary, you had a solve and a winning PoE right when you showed up, super impressive stuff, even more so considering it wasn't even your objective!!" - Zrein

ISO #170 •••
--> @Kohai


Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/28/2026 at 8:34 PM (post #169)

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/28/2026 at 9:33 PM (post #168)
There is 0 evidence of me or Whiteflame defending each other or even overtly town reading each other.

Whiteflame not being my primary interest doesn’t mean I am shielding him. The argument reeks of desperation

Ok so answer: What is your read on wf and why?

The only thing that could give me pause on him is the fact that he’s a second investigative role, but we now have three so I think of the three pie is more likely to be scum. Whiteflame gets points for identifying I was cop last day phase yet not killing me. I suppose he could have let me live though because they don’t fear my result if he’s scum, which means mafia definitely have a godfather or lawyer or something, which is what we expect already anyways.


I don’t have a glaring scum read on Whiteflame, plus me thinking you and pie are scum means that the remaining are likely town, but I am open minded.

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In loving Memory of Lannan and Ajab, fallen debaters.

ISO #171 •••
--> @ILikePie5, @Vader

See above as that’s case in point for why wf / Luna is the team.

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"Kohai, your entrance to the thread was legendary, you had a solve and a winning PoE right when you showed up, super impressive stuff, even more so considering it wasn't even your objective!!" - Zrein

ISO #172 •••
--> @Kohai


Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/28/2026 at 8:44 PM (post #171)
See above as that’s case in point for why wf / Luna is the team.


Not scumreading someone =\= shielding them?


Also you have been bandwagoning pie all day phase, so the same argument applies to you.

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In loving Memory of Lannan and Ajab, fallen debaters.

ISO #173 •••
--> @Lunatic


Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/28/2026 at 10:51 PM (post #172)

Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/28/2026 at 8:44 PM (post #171)
See above as that’s case in point for why wf / Luna is the team.

Not scumreading someone =\= shielding them?

Also you have been bandwagoning pie all day phase, so the same argument applies to you.


Tell me why wf is town that doesn’t boil down to “I scum read pie / myself more.”


Give me an actual town case on wf

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"Kohai, your entrance to the thread was legendary, you had a solve and a winning PoE right when you showed up, super impressive stuff, even more so considering it wasn't even your objective!!" - Zrein

ISO #174 •••
--> @Kohai

Looking back through your ISO, you've given precisely two reasons I can find for townreading Pie.


The first is what you said in #46:


The issue I’m having with that worldview is pie clearly knew someone targeted him and Mag1c claimed it.


I responded to this several times and you didn't address my point. Again: Read posts #65 and #85. Long and short of it, he likely didn’t know. He risked nothing by claiming he’d been visited. If no one had said anything, he could have claimed scum visited him.


The second is what you said in #74:


W!Pie always includes me in the dream for an easy ML


I don't get why you believe this. You had two green checks on you, so I don't know what value you think he'd gain or why that would be an easy ML. Pie has two other investigative roles he knew he'd have to contend with this DP. He's drawn attention to me and Luna virtually from the start of the DP. Why do you think he had an incentive to draw attention to you instead?


So do you have another reason why you are townreading Pie? Or are you going to find a basis for supporting this reasoning? Because I feel like you dropped these thoughts and you've just spent the rest of the DP assuming they're absolutely true.

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ISO #175 •••
--> @Kohai
Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/28/2026 at 10:44 PM (post #171)
See above as that’s case in point for why wf / Luna is the team.


You have a very strange way of establishing this. You've done absolutely nothing to show that we're "hard shielding" each other despite claiming that's what we're doing, yet when we point that out to you, it somehow also demonstrates that we're the scum team? Make that make sense. I get that you've provided at least some reason for sussing each of us, but it'd be nice if you had at least some consistent narrative on why we're a team together.

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ISO #176 •••
--> @Kohai


Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/28/2026 at 8:52 PM (post #173)

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/28/2026 at 10:51 PM (post #172)

Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/28/2026 at 8:44 PM (post #171)
See above as that’s case in point for why wf / Luna is the team.

Not scumreading someone =\= shielding them?

Also you have been bandwagoning pie all day phase, so the same argument applies to you.

Tell me why wf is town that doesn’t boil down to “I scum read pie / myself more.”

Give me an actual town case on wf


I thought you were scum reading me for “buddying” him and now you want me to make a town case for him? That makes no sense brother.

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In loving Memory of Lannan and Ajab, fallen debaters.

ISO #177 •••
--> @Vader


Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/28/2026 at 12:14 PM (post #156)
Originally Posted by Vader on 9/28/2026 at 12:50 PM (post #149)
I have to analyze behavior and a lot of different things. I see an argument for either Pie or Whiteflame. I don’t understand why we are letting Kohai just slide the way they are though compared to the other characters

I've said it before that I don't think we should let Kohai slide, he's just not the focus of my attention at this point. Neither are you. My focus is on what I know: there are too many investigative claims and at least one of them (Pie and Luna) is supported by your Miller claim. I have a very hard time believing that both a Dreamer and a Cop exist in this game, but one must, so I'm evaluating which of them is least likely to be real.

As for you and Kohai, I can see an argument for either of you being plausibly paired with Pie, though the case of a pairing with Luna is harder to buy for either of you, at least behaviorally. It's part of the reason I'm sussing Pie more than I am Luna.

Regarding why I saw Kohai as town for as long as I did, that's down to him being my only green check up until this DP. Now that I have one on both you and Kohai, I'm reconsidering my read on him, since both of you have the same evidence for you being town from where I'm sitting. The main difference is the green check from Luna and, if it's a given there's a Miller in this game, then it's probably a given there's a GF or Lawyer on the scum team. Pie's own PM where a Miller was confirmed to him apparently mentions a GF. I can't ignore that.


@Vader


This is just pure waffling. He goes from it’s Vader/Pie or Kohai/Pie to Vader/Pie the because it Vader/Pie or Kohai/Pie.


At this juncture in the game. As town, your job is to find your 2 fellow townies and 2 scum. The record speaks for itself. Pie constantly protecting you and preventing you from getting lynched or WF who has been on you 2 days in a row

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ISO #178 •••
--> @Lunatic


Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/28/2026 at 4:13 PM (post #165)
I've gone back through the Pie/Kohai stuff and I keep coming back to the same thing: I think these two could very easily be partners.
The DP1 fight looks way better as distancing to me now. Pie jumps on Kohai, Kohai fires right back, and suddenly you've got this nice little "look, we're obviously fighting" dynamic between them. But neither one actually needs to go all the way with it. Pie gets credit for pushing scum, Kohai gets to look like he's defending himself. Pretty fucking convenient.
And look at where we are now. Kohai is sitting on my green while also telling everyone that my green might not mean shit because GF exists. Like... pick one lol. If my result is unreliable, then why are you using it to take yourself out of the POE?
Then he gets to sit there and point at me, Vader, Whiteflame, whatever, while he's basically considered untouchable. That's a hell of a position for scum to be in.
I'm not saying "they fought in DP1, so they're partners." That's lazy as shit. I'm saying the whole progression makes sense if that fight was manufactured separation.
Especially if we lynch pie and if Pie flips scum, Kohai is absolutely the first person I'm looking at. I don't think we should keep giving him a free pass because the checks are convenient for him.


I don’t blame you for bringing this back up. I should’ve listened to Mag1c when he called out your shitty logic. You guys really have no choice besides pushing Kohai/Pie

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ISO #179 •••
--> @Vader

I don't see much reason in engaging with Pie at this point and I think I've made the case pretty thoroughly against him, most of which he's avoided addressing despite the block quoting. I'm having a tougher and tougher time believing that Kohai's engaging in any of this in good faith despite the back-and-forth, so I'm putting the ball in your court. If there's anything unclear or something you'd like summarized from my views, I'll do what I can to address it. Your call.

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ISO #180 •••
--> @whiteflame

Does a self visit count as a visit for your role? Say if kohai lawyered himself the night you visited him would you see him move? Sorry if you answered this already.

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In loving Memory of Lannan and Ajab, fallen debaters.