Apocalypse Mafia - DP3

There’s no world where WF can reconcile you being scum, and the fact he is shows that he’s keeping his options open.

Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/27/2026 at 9:15 PM (post #113)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/27/2026 at 12:41 PM (post #92)

Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/27/2026 at 1:07 PM (post #83)

Also, WF from ur POV can’t be town because he’s putting you + Pie as his scum team. That means he buys Luna as Cop but doesn’t buy you as Miller. It makes zero sense

Two things.

One, I've acknowledged in my responses to Luna that my read on Kohai may be wrong. Pie + Kohai or Pie + Vader could be the team from where I'm sitting, the only difference being the extra green check on Kohai that could be the result of his being the GF or having been Lawyered before being investigated by Luna.

Two, I'd like to understand how this "makes zero sense." A Cop doesn't make a Miller certain, and Pie knows that. We know scum were given a fake claim. We don't know what that fake claim was. As I've already said, if scum received a fake role claim, the Miller is more likely to be that fake claim than either Tree Stump or Dreamer. So explain what doesn't make sense.

So Miller is the fake claim that Vader/Kiggans had, but didn’t claim when they got on? That makes zero sense

The fact that Kiggans didn't SOP claim makes zero sense in general, but whether it's a fake claim or real, we know they didn't. We know they weren't very active at all in the day chat, so if they were scum, they likely weren't very active there, either. Vader claimed the moment he realized what his role was in DP2, whether it's real or fake.

That being said, the more we get into this, the less I believe that scum got a fake role claim. It's more likely scum received a fake character claim.

Give them the BoTD they are new and may not have known to SOP claim

Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/27/2026 at 9:19 PM (post #116)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/27/2026 at 7:13 PM (post #105)

I’m going to post more this evening (sorry for the delay), but I’d like to ask everyone: do you honestly think Bullish would essentially just give away the existence of a Miller in the PM of the only known player whose results are affected by said Miller? Seriously, it would be like my PM including wording that strongly implied the existence of a Ninja, except this also effectively confirms the existence of a player with an SOP claim.

But if Bullish have Miller as fake claim, why does Kiggans not SOP claim it with Pie as partner?

See my response above.

To be clear, this does not make Vader’s claim sus, but I can’t believe Bullish would make this error and if he had, I can’t believe that Pie wouldn’t have made a huge fucking deal about it the moment Vader claimed.

What? Why would I as Town complain if Bullish basically confirmed a Townie to me lol.

I didn't say you'd complain. You'd be making a huge fucking deal in the DP if attention was put on Vader. I did notice that you mentioned Vader was likely town based on your PM earlier in the DP, but it was a long while after that and a lot of sus directed at Vader before you made the point adamantly.

Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/27/2026 at 10:15 PM (post #123)

Give them the BoTD they are new and may not have known to SOP claim

They are new to forum mafia, not to mafia generally, but there's some chance that games they've played before handle SOP claims differently or don't feature Millers often.

Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/27/2026 at 9:44 PM (post #120)

I’ll also note that I softed Dreamer very early DP2. And I stated that I townread Vader2 because of my PM very early and the only way Vader2 was scum was if Bullish was troll

https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/88/apocalypse-mafia---dp2?commentId=6ab47c542a2feda0d8972421

Both WF and Luna were the last to claim, so they had their pick of roles to claim.

Actually, you were the last to claim. I'll give you that you softed early (at least insofar as you claimed something in your PM vindicated the Miller claim), but you were the last to claim your actual role, and your argument is that scum didn't figure out you had the Dreamer role, otherwise you would have been visited during the NP.

I'll grant that Luna being a late Cop claim should be at least somewhat suspect. A Cop should claim late, that doesn't mean it's a given that they're actually the Cop.

And yet, with all my choices that I could have selected from, I chose a niche role that I've never seen before, having had both you and Luna soft investigative roles before I claimed and presenting results that were green checks on two remaining players. Sure, why not?

There’s no world where WF can reconcile you being scum, and the fact he is shows that he’s keeping his options open.

I've explained my concerns about Vader. Setting aside the possibility that he received a fake role claim of Miller, that option becomes significantly less likely, but not impossible. For the time being, yes, I'm reconsidering my reads and keeping my options open. You make that sound terrible, but both Vader and Kohai are reliant on external checks (and evidence from your PM apparently) to support their claims. You may be able to dismiss Vader. I can't, not entirely.

If Vader is scum then who is their likely partner and why?

Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/27/2026 at 10:46 PM (post #127)

If Vader is scum then who is their likely partner and why?

You’d have to believe it’s either Pie or Luna. Both have given his role significant support, though only the former has said a Miller has effectively been mod confirmed to them as part of his PM. Either way, if Vader is scum, his partner would’ve had to guess at the existence of an alignment-investigative role before Vader. I recognize that that also means they would have had to ignore pretty big softs during the last DP and gone for the claimed Doc as their kill. They would have decided not to visit Pie (if Luna’s scum), or not RB Luna (if Pie’s scum). Still an outside chance scum received Miller as a fake claim, but I’m buying that less and less the more I consider it.

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/27/2026 at 10:54 PM (post #128)

Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/27/2026 at 10:46 PM (post #127)

If Vader is scum then who is their likely partner and why?

You’d have to believe it’s either Pie or Luna. Both have given his role significant support, though only the former has said a Miller has effectively been mod confirmed to them as part of his PM. Either way, if Vader is scum, his partner would’ve had to guess at the existence of an alignment-investigative role before Vader. I recognize that that also means they would have had to ignore pretty big softs during the last DP and gone for the claimed Doc as their kill. They would have decided not to visit Pie (if Luna’s scum), or not RB Luna (if Pie’s scum). Still an outside chance scum received Miller as a fake claim, but I’m buying that less and less the more I consider it.

That wasn’t the question. It’s not what “Is have to believe” it’s what you would believe

Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/27/2026 at 10:57 PM (post #129)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/27/2026 at 10:54 PM (post #128)

Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/27/2026 at 10:46 PM (post #127)

If Vader is scum then who is their likely partner and why?

You’d have to believe it’s either Pie or Luna. Both have given his role significant support, though only the former has said a Miller has effectively been mod confirmed to them as part of his PM. Either way, if Vader is scum, his partner would’ve had to guess at the existence of an alignment-investigative role before Vader. I recognize that that also means they would have had to ignore pretty big softs during the last DP and gone for the claimed Doc as their kill. They would have decided not to visit Pie (if Luna’s scum), or not RB Luna (if Pie’s scum). Still an outside chance scum received Miller as a fake claim, but I’m buying that less and less the more I consider it.

That wasn’t the question. It’s not what “Is have to believe” it’s what you would believe

Change the word "You'd" to "I'd" and yes, it answers your question. Sorry, I like to frame things from the perspective of the person I'm talking to when I'm providing my reasoning.