Apocalypse Mafia - DP3

There’s no world where WF can reconcile you being scum, and the fact he is shows that he’s keeping his options open.

Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/27/2026 at 9:15 PM (post #113)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/27/2026 at 12:41 PM (post #92)

Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/27/2026 at 1:07 PM (post #83)

Also, WF from ur POV can’t be town because he’s putting you + Pie as his scum team. That means he buys Luna as Cop but doesn’t buy you as Miller. It makes zero sense

Two things.

One, I've acknowledged in my responses to Luna that my read on Kohai may be wrong. Pie + Kohai or Pie + Vader could be the team from where I'm sitting, the only difference being the extra green check on Kohai that could be the result of his being the GF or having been Lawyered before being investigated by Luna.

Two, I'd like to understand how this "makes zero sense." A Cop doesn't make a Miller certain, and Pie knows that. We know scum were given a fake claim. We don't know what that fake claim was. As I've already said, if scum received a fake role claim, the Miller is more likely to be that fake claim than either Tree Stump or Dreamer. So explain what doesn't make sense.

So Miller is the fake claim that Vader/Kiggans had, but didn’t claim when they got on? That makes zero sense

The fact that Kiggans didn't SOP claim makes zero sense in general, but whether it's a fake claim or real, we know they didn't. We know they weren't very active at all in the day chat, so if they were scum, they likely weren't very active there, either. Vader claimed the moment he realized what his role was in DP2, whether it's real or fake.

That being said, the more we get into this, the less I believe that scum got a fake role claim. It's more likely scum received a fake character claim.

Give them the BoTD they are new and may not have known to SOP claim

Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/27/2026 at 9:19 PM (post #116)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/27/2026 at 7:13 PM (post #105)

I’m going to post more this evening (sorry for the delay), but I’d like to ask everyone: do you honestly think Bullish would essentially just give away the existence of a Miller in the PM of the only known player whose results are affected by said Miller? Seriously, it would be like my PM including wording that strongly implied the existence of a Ninja, except this also effectively confirms the existence of a player with an SOP claim.

But if Bullish have Miller as fake claim, why does Kiggans not SOP claim it with Pie as partner?

See my response above.

To be clear, this does not make Vader’s claim sus, but I can’t believe Bullish would make this error and if he had, I can’t believe that Pie wouldn’t have made a huge fucking deal about it the moment Vader claimed.

What? Why would I as Town complain if Bullish basically confirmed a Townie to me lol.

I didn't say you'd complain. You'd be making a huge fucking deal in the DP if attention was put on Vader. I did notice that you mentioned Vader was likely town based on your PM earlier in the DP, but it was a long while after that and a lot of sus directed at Vader before you made the point adamantly.

Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/27/2026 at 10:15 PM (post #123)

Give them the BoTD they are new and may not have known to SOP claim

They are new to forum mafia, not to mafia generally, but there's some chance that games they've played before handle SOP claims differently or don't feature Millers often.

Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/27/2026 at 9:44 PM (post #120)

I’ll also note that I softed Dreamer very early DP2. And I stated that I townread Vader2 because of my PM very early and the only way Vader2 was scum was if Bullish was troll

https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/88/apocalypse-mafia---dp2?commentId=6ab47c542a2feda0d8972421

Both WF and Luna were the last to claim, so they had their pick of roles to claim.

Actually, you were the last to claim. I'll give you that you softed early (at least insofar as you claimed something in your PM vindicated the Miller claim), but you were the last to claim your actual role, and your argument is that scum didn't figure out you had the Dreamer role, otherwise you would have been visited during the NP.

I'll grant that Luna being a late Cop claim should be at least somewhat suspect. A Cop should claim late, that doesn't mean it's a given that they're actually the Cop.

And yet, with all my choices that I could have selected from, I chose a niche role that I've never seen before, having had both you and Luna soft investigative roles before I claimed and presenting results that were green checks on two remaining players. Sure, why not?

There’s no world where WF can reconcile you being scum, and the fact he is shows that he’s keeping his options open.

I've explained my concerns about Vader. Setting aside the possibility that he received a fake role claim of Miller, that option becomes significantly less likely, but not impossible. For the time being, yes, I'm reconsidering my reads and keeping my options open. You make that sound terrible, but both Vader and Kohai are reliant on external checks (and evidence from your PM apparently) to support their claims. You may be able to dismiss Vader. I can't, not entirely.

If Vader is scum then who is their likely partner and why?

Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/27/2026 at 10:46 PM (post #127)

If Vader is scum then who is their likely partner and why?

You’d have to believe it’s either Pie or Luna. Both have given his role significant support, though only the former has said a Miller has effectively been mod confirmed to them as part of his PM. Either way, if Vader is scum, his partner would’ve had to guess at the existence of an alignment-investigative role before Vader. I recognize that that also means they would have had to ignore pretty big softs during the last DP and gone for the claimed Doc as their kill. They would have decided not to visit Pie (if Luna’s scum), or not RB Luna (if Pie’s scum). Still an outside chance scum received Miller as a fake claim, but I’m buying that less and less the more I consider it.

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/27/2026 at 10:54 PM (post #128)

Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/27/2026 at 10:46 PM (post #127)

If Vader is scum then who is their likely partner and why?

You’d have to believe it’s either Pie or Luna. Both have given his role significant support, though only the former has said a Miller has effectively been mod confirmed to them as part of his PM. Either way, if Vader is scum, his partner would’ve had to guess at the existence of an alignment-investigative role before Vader. I recognize that that also means they would have had to ignore pretty big softs during the last DP and gone for the claimed Doc as their kill. They would have decided not to visit Pie (if Luna’s scum), or not RB Luna (if Pie’s scum). Still an outside chance scum received Miller as a fake claim, but I’m buying that less and less the more I consider it.

That wasn’t the question. It’s not what “Is have to believe” it’s what you would believe

Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/27/2026 at 10:57 PM (post #129)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/27/2026 at 10:54 PM (post #128)

Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/27/2026 at 10:46 PM (post #127)

If Vader is scum then who is their likely partner and why?

You’d have to believe it’s either Pie or Luna. Both have given his role significant support, though only the former has said a Miller has effectively been mod confirmed to them as part of his PM. Either way, if Vader is scum, his partner would’ve had to guess at the existence of an alignment-investigative role before Vader. I recognize that that also means they would have had to ignore pretty big softs during the last DP and gone for the claimed Doc as their kill. They would have decided not to visit Pie (if Luna’s scum), or not RB Luna (if Pie’s scum). Still an outside chance scum received Miller as a fake claim, but I’m buying that less and less the more I consider it.

That wasn’t the question. It’s not what “Is have to believe” it’s what you would believe

Change the word "You'd" to "I'd" and yes, it answers your question. Sorry, I like to frame things from the perspective of the person I'm talking to when I'm providing my reasoning.

Official Vote Count

Not voting: Vader (2), whiteflame, Kohai, lunatic, Pie,

This DP ends in ~42 hours. DP3 ends 09/29 18:30 EDT.

Dead:

Banana- Alien Invasion- Even Night Follower

Banana - Alien invasion - we'd like to think we can put up a fight against an alien invasion, but the fact is an alien civilization that can space travel can probably vaporize us like ants. Before aliens invade us they might probe us; but travelling back and forth takes a long time. For this reason you are the even-night follower - each even numbered night, you may visit a player, and learn the type of action they took; the possible results are: none, visiting, informational, protective, manipulative, killing, special.

Thoth - Sun Red Giant - Vanilla Town

Sun transforming into a red giant - in a billion years, the sun will turn into a red giant and engulf earth in flames. However, this apocalypse is so far into the future it's unlikely to happen to humans as we know ourselves today. You are vanilla.

Vader1- Solar Flare- 2x Roleblocker

Vader - Solar flare - Anomalous surface turbulence may cause massive quantities of high energy electromagnetic emissions to escape the sun and hit earth. While solar flares are unlikely to directly harm humans on earth, they could cause an EMP that fries all electronics on earth, which may cause economic and then societal collapse. You are the town 2x roleblocker.

Mag1cMan- God exists and we face judgment- Doctor (chose Jesus as his god) (protected pie)

Magic - God turns out to be real - God turns out to be real, and we humans face their judgement and wrath. He grants powers to his most devout followers. During the pre-game phase, you may choose your patron god; your ability will be based on the patron god you choose. The ability will not be revealed to you until the end of DP1, you must take it on faith. Your options:

Ra - ()

Jesus - (Jesus is known for curing lepers through miracles, but not for spotting traitors. You are the doctor.)

Athena - ()

Claims:

Whiteflame- Ice-IX from Cat’s Cradle (p#6)

My role is called a Contact Counter. The way it works is that I target someone, and I get a count for the number of people who are in their contact chain. My visit counts towards that chain. So, for example, if I used it on myself and no one targeted me, it's a chain of 1. If I used it on someone else who didn't visit anyone, it's a chain of 2. If my target does visit someone, it's a chain of 3. I got a whole list of possible results based on various interactions after asking several questions of Bullish, so if people want to know them, I can go through it.

The long and short of it: I used my night actions on Kohai NP1 and Vader NP2. I chose two players who claimed roles that did not visit, since picking a target who did visit someone else would just confirm that they had visited someone, not who they visited or why. Both Kohai and Vader had chains of two, meaning that, absent any fuckery, I confirmed that Kohai did not visit anyone NP1 and Vader did not visit anyone NP2.

Vader 2- Vacuum Decay- Miller (day 2)

My character is false vacuum decay. It’s a fake a quantum state that is meta stable and because I am false I am Miller

Lunatic- Nuclear War - Cop (p#12)

Well I was hoping for some solid results last night, but nothing. I am Nuclear War, MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction). I am the cop. Justification is all about deterrence cold war era doctrine that says if 1 party uses nukes, the other will retaliate in kind and both parties will be destroyed. Maintaining nuclear deterrence depended on intelligence, early warning systems, and the ability to identify an enemy's actions before responses were made which is why I am cop. Thought the justification was kind of a stretch at first until I seen other people's justifications lol.

Night One I investigated Whiteflame, Night Two I investigated Kohai.

Both are innocent.

Kohai- Zombie Apocalypse- Tree Stump (day 2 link)

Zombies were dead but are back to life to eat your brian. Hence i come back to life as a tree stump

Pie- AI Takeover- Dreamer (p#35)

Justification: Bullish says he loves his AI overlords. AI is super smart and basically knows everything but still can be very wrong. This Dreamer.

Whiteflame p#54

Ice-IX functions by seeding, transforming sources of water or ice into Ice-IX (which has a way higher melting temperature than normal ice). Effectively, because it literally comes into contact with water molecules and spreads along that path, I am the contact counter.

I feel like there has to be a solve here. A few things stick out:

1) Whiteflame's claim and role:

All I’ll say for now is that I got one of my all-time favorite apocalypses. Do with that what you will.

https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/87/apocalypse-mafia---dp1?comment_number=8

Ice-IX is a unique apocalypse from Cat's Cradle, which I have never heard of until now. Personally, this looks like a perfect fake claim since it would require Bullish having knowledge of this book and specific type of apocalypse and whiteflame just happening to get their all time favorite.

It's not impossible, but a lot of things that make this stick out like a sore thumb.

Kind of wiped right now but I'll catch up and post when I wake up. Sleep schedule is messed up