Apocalypse Mafia - DP3

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/27/2026 at 12:32 PM (post #87)

Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/27/2026 at 10:37 AM (post #77)

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/27/2026 at 11:26 AM (post #73)

It doesn’t tell them much to leave me alive going into LYLO. I also don’t think they thought I was dreamer especially considering how I said a Miller made sense. Why would a Dreamer say that.

Why would anything other than a dreamer know about being visited and also have something where a miller could effect it?

Dreamers usually don’t interact with Millers. I’ve never seen it interact with a Miller.

So then what were your talking about when you said the miller made sense with you?

Bullish specifically wrote in my PM that I am influenced by Millers, which is really odd. Doesn’t make sense for mod to put that. It’s never how Dreamers have historically worked

Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/27/2026 at 1:07 PM (post #83)

Also, WF from ur POV can’t be town because he’s putting you + Pie as his scum team. That means he buys Luna as Cop but doesn’t buy you as Miller. It makes zero sense

Two things.

One, I've acknowledged in my responses to Luna that my read on Kohai may be wrong. Pie + Kohai or Pie + Vader could be the team from where I'm sitting, the only difference being the extra green check on Kohai that could be the result of his being the GF or having been Lawyered before being investigated by Luna.

Two, I'd like to understand how this "makes zero sense." A Cop doesn't make a Miller certain, and Pie knows that. We know scum were given a fake claim. We don't know what that fake claim was. As I've already said, if scum received a fake role claim, the Miller is more likely to be that fake claim than either Tree Stump or Dreamer. So explain what doesn't make sense.

Also, WF is essentially claiming Tracker. His argument is that there can’t be 4 investigative roles, so Dreamer makes zero sense. But on the same foot, he’s saying Cop + Tracker + Banana’s role me 100% sense. Cop + Tracker + Banana or Cop/Tracker + Weak Dreamer + Banana seem more balanced?

Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/27/2026 at 1:38 PM (post #90)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/27/2026 at 12:30 PM (post #85)

So, I have a lot of thoughts and I don't expect to get them out in a single post. I'm going to get out what I can now and come back to this later when I have a little more time and can respond.

To start, I want to note just how odd Pie's justification is. Honestly, when I first read he was the Dreamer, I half expected the justification to be some reference to Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? by Philip K. Dick. But what we got is stranger.

No, it says I’m smart but make mistakes. You’re the book, not me.

Got that, thanks.

He's the only one with an element of his justification that is a stated opinion of the mod (he says "Bullish says he loves his AI overlords), says it includes that AI is smart, and therefore... it's the Dreamer?

You’re conveniently forgetting the other piece.

What did I miss, exactly? Pretty sure I covered the full listed justification here and below.

I get that we're functioning under the assumption that there are roles in play, particularly the Miller, that could affect their results, but Dreamer doesn't scream a "smart" role and that would mean that Bullish literally wrote into the role that there are roles in game that can deceive it. It's literally a part of his justification. Has anyone ever seen a mod give away that kind of information solely to justify why a given character is a given role?

I’ve been consistent since last DP that there’s a reason why I believed Vader was town, and it has to do with my PM.

You've been consistent since post 322 last DP that your PM supports the existence of a Miller, yes. And I think the fact that your PM suggests the existence of a Miller is the first time I've ever seen a PM effectively give away the existence of another role. That's what I'm calling out.

Apart from that, in terms of its use, Pie hasn't given us any reason to believe his role is true. He "knew" he was visited back in NP1. Setting aside the possibility of a scum role that registers visits or Tracks a target, neither are necessary for this to be believable. As I said before, he could have just lied about knowing. Doing so got exactly what scum wanted by effectively forcing a claim out of Mag1c. I know I wasn't the only one who was confused by the decision to push Mag1c to claim, but for some reason, we've brushed that under the table as unimportant. Shocker, our claimed Doctor is now dead.

I’ve already explained this multiple times. It was a reaction test and a way to identify scum immediately. Mag1c being Doctor obviously sucked, but he was town, and I seem to recall both you and Luna still sussing him.

I basically town-locked him after I realized there weren't any other protective roles in game. As for your explanation, I'm saying I don't buy it.

As for his list of 3 this DP (which he only gave after everyone else had already claimed, so there was no chance he'd been visited, despite having heavily implied that he's the Dreamer), it's not particularly surprising to me. Both Luna and I have claimed investigative roles. Both put the Dreamer in question, especially with Banana's flip. Placing attention on us makes nothing but sense at this point since the decision almost necessarily comes down to which of the three of us is lying. Given repeated green checks on Kohai from both Luna and me, I don't think it's nearly as valuable as Kohai believes to include him in the Dream result.

You’re calling Luna town with your role + Banana’s role which is the strongest combination of the 4 roles we have. My role is the weakest out of all 4.

I'm buying the existence of 3 roles: Luna's, mine and Banana's. Mine is basically a much vaguer Tracker and Banana's role is every other night. And I just thoroughly disagree that a Dreamer is a weak role.

Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/27/2026 at 1:42 PM (post #93)

Also, WF is essentially claiming Tracker. His argument is that there can’t be 4 investigative roles, so Dreamer makes zero sense. But on the same foot, he’s saying Cop + Tracker + Banana’s role me 100% sense. Cop + Tracker + Banana or Cop/Tracker + Weak Dreamer + Banana seem more balanced?

See the above. Again, here's the layout:

Banana: Even Night Follower

Pie: Dreamer

Luna: Cop

Me: Contact Counter

I don't believe that all four of those are present in this game. No, a Contact Counter is not a Tracker, no matter how many times Pie keeps repeating that. And I'll note that the Follower and Contact Counter give distinct, non-alignment investigative results (type of role and number of people who visited/are visited by the target). Dreamer and Cop are the only roles with overlapping, alignment investigative results.

The fact Luna just suggested me + you feels like they’re in panic mode

Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/27/2026 at 1:02 PM (post #96)

The fact Luna just suggested me + you feels like they’re in panic mode

That + WF is shifting to Pie/Kohai

I’ll respond later to WF/Luna in a bit

Going to be busy for a couple of hours, I've got a synagogue board meeting. I'll be back to continue this later in the afternoon.

Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/27/2026 at 2:17 PM (post #97)

Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/27/2026 at 1:02 PM (post #96)

The fact Luna just suggested me + you feels like they’re in panic mode

That + WF is shifting to Pie/Kohai

Yeah. The more I read the more I come to wf / Luna

Official Vote Count

Not voting: Vader (2), whiteflame, Kohai, lunatic, Pie,

This DP ends in ~48 hours. DP3 ends 09/29 18:30 EDT. (This is corrected from the OP)

Time to read a bit ish

There is quite a bit to dissect here. But there is some good information from WF and Pie. I have to read the analysis but do want to note I think that WF role is similar to tracker, don't think it is "essentially a tracker" to the degree Pie states.

What is the justification for Athena being cop?

I’m going to post more this evening (sorry for the delay), but I’d like to ask everyone: do you honestly think Bullish would essentially just give away the existence of a Miller in the PM of the only known player whose results are affected by said Miller? Seriously, it would be like my PM including wording that strongly implied the existence of a Ninja, except this also effectively confirms the existence of a player with an SOP claim.

To be clear, this does not make Vader’s claim sus, but I can’t believe Bullish would make this error and if he had, I can’t believe that Pie wouldn’t have made a huge fucking deal about it the moment Vader claimed.

Realized I had an assumption I didn’t clarify in there, one that I think is warranted. I’m functioning from the assumption that either the Dreamer or the Cop are real, not both. If the Dreamer is real, it’s the only alignment investigative and Luna is lying. The same is true of the Cop.

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/27/2026 at 8:15 PM (post #106)

Realized I had an assumption I didn’t clarify in there, one that I think is warranted. I’m functioning from the assumption that either the Dreamer or the Cop are real, not both. If the Dreamer is real, it’s the only alignment investigative and Luna is lying. The same is true of the Cop.

So from your POV you’re saying either pie or Luna have to be scum. Which one is most likely and why?

Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/27/2026 at 12:02 PM (post #96)

The fact Luna just suggested me + you feels like they’re in panic mode

Panic over what? lol it’s obvious it’s you, your casting doubt on the cop for the weakest reason ever. Just seems like you are doing this from necessity at this point

Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/27/2026 at 8:18 PM (post #107)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/27/2026 at 8:15 PM (post #106)

Realized I had an assumption I didn’t clarify in there, one that I think is warranted. I’m functioning from the assumption that either the Dreamer or the Cop are real, not both. If the Dreamer is real, it’s the only alignment investigative and Luna is lying. The same is true of the Cop.

So from your POV you’re saying either pie or Luna have to be scum. Which one is most likely and why?

I’ve all but said as much several times before. A Cop and a Dreamer in the same game with either an Even Night Follower or a Contact Counter seems absurd without giving scum so many roles to counter it that they’re effectively both useless, and all the more absurd as part of a potential set of 4 investigatives.

As for who I sus more at this point, I think I’ve made it clear that that’s Pie. I’ve pointed to several problems I have with his claim text and explained how his night actions do next to nothing to verify him. The whole “Miller affects my role” thing coming out of nowhere (I’m unable to verify it, Bullish says one of their roles has to be flipped for me to ask about it) at the end of the last DP didn’t help, seemed like an attempt to draw sus back to Luna. And I don’t buy that scum couldn’t figure out he was the Dreamer based on what he said last DP.

By contrast, while I also can’t verify Luna’s night actions, I have an easier time buying the text of his PM. His reads on Vader 2.0 have been largely consistent with someone who believes the Miller claim, despite him being an easy potential mislynch with no affiliation investigative roles claimed by the end of the last DP. And behaviorally, I’ve had a good deal of reason to believe what he’s said in previous DPs matches his town behavior. He’s definitely not town confirmed, but I can’t see a good case against him aside from pointing to some paranoia and frustration that is, at worst, NAI for Luna.

Question: if pie is lying then how did he know someone visit them?

I’ll be back on later. Gonna go to the bar. Got a lot of stuff saved to go over.

Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/27/2026 at 8:45 PM (post #110)

Question: if pie is lying then how did he know someone visit them?

I’ll be back on later. Gonna go to the bar. Got a lot of stuff saved to go over.

Been over this. Read posts #65 and #85. Long and short of it, he likely didn’t know. He risked nothing by claiming he’d been visited. If no one had said anything, he could have claimed scum visited him.

Originally Posted by Vader on 9/27/2026 at 6:59 PM (post #104)

What is the justification for Athena being cop?

Idk exactly, but I swear there was a Greek myth about her creating a jury to determine innocent vs guilt for the guy who killed his mom.

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/27/2026 at 12:41 PM (post #92)

Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/27/2026 at 1:07 PM (post #83)

Also, WF from ur POV can’t be town because he’s putting you + Pie as his scum team. That means he buys Luna as Cop but doesn’t buy you as Miller. It makes zero sense

Two things.

One, I've acknowledged in my responses to Luna that my read on Kohai may be wrong. Pie + Kohai or Pie + Vader could be the team from where I'm sitting, the only difference being the extra green check on Kohai that could be the result of his being the GF or having been Lawyered before being investigated by Luna.

Two, I'd like to understand how this "makes zero sense." A Cop doesn't make a Miller certain, and Pie knows that. We know scum were given a fake claim. We don't know what that fake claim was. As I've already said, if scum received a fake role claim, the Miller is more likely to be that fake claim than either Tree Stump or Dreamer. So explain what doesn't make sense.

So Miller is the fake claim that Vader/Kiggans had, but didn’t claim when they got on? That makes zero sense

Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/27/2026 at 9:13 PM (post #112)

Originally Posted by Vader on 9/27/2026 at 6:59 PM (post #104)

What is the justification for Athena being cop?

Idk exactly, but I swear there was a Greek myth about her creating a jury to determine innocent vs guilt for the guy who killed his mom.

The Greek Goddess, Athena, identified with the patriarchy and usually cast her power and support on their side during any dispute. In the first jury trial in recorded history, she cast the deciding vote to acquit Orestes of the murdering of his mother to avenge his father's death. Athena was persuaded by Apollo's argument in Orestes' defense that the death of a mother was of less importance than a father's death, since the woman simply nurtured the seed while it was actually the man who planted it. This is the story.

https://www.dominalaw.com/legal-blog/2011/may/the-root-origin-of-trial-by-jury/

Still the main issue

Jesus - (Jesus is known for curing lepers through miracles, but not for spotting traitors. You are the doctor.)

Kinda implies maybe another god would have been able to spot traitors and would have been the cop?

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/27/2026 at 7:13 PM (post #105)

I’m going to post more this evening (sorry for the delay), but I’d like to ask everyone: do you honestly think Bullish would essentially just give away the existence of a Miller in the PM of the only known player whose results are affected by said Miller? Seriously, it would be like my PM including wording that strongly implied the existence of a Ninja, except this also effectively confirms the existence of a player with an SOP claim.

But if Bullish have Miller as fake claim, why does Kiggans not SOP claim it with Pie as partner?

To be clear, this does not make Vader’s claim sus, but I can’t believe Bullish would make this error and if he had, I can’t believe that Pie wouldn’t have made a huge fucking deal about it the moment Vader claimed.

What? Why would I as Town complain if Bullish basically confirmed a Townie to me lol.

21 hours left

Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/27/2026 at 9:32 PM (post #117)

21 hours left

OP was wrong. 41 hrs

She did do that. Very good point

I’ll also note that I softed Dreamer very early DP2. And I stated that I townread Vader2 because of my PM very early and the only way Vader2 was scum was if Bullish was troll

https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/88/apocalypse-mafia---dp2?commentId=6ab47c542a2feda0d8972421

Both WF and Luna were the last to claim, so they had their pick of roles to claim.