How long has it been since we had a game this big? I take it we would need to to back to DART or DDO. I hope this is the start of a trend.
How long has it been since we had a game this big? I take it we would need to to back to DART or DDO. I hope this is the start of a trend.
Forum signatures are bullshit. Nobody wants to waste their time and bandwidth reading something they have read 29,998,559,671,349 times before.
I’ve played 30-plus-player games on Discord. I would like those here, but they would take too long, especially since we usually have 4-day DP/NP cycles versus 24-hour there. We would need to multitable, shorten phases, or add more kills to keep games from dragging forever. How did they keep big games tolerably short in the heyday of DDO?
Forum signatures are bullshit. Nobody wants to waste their time and bandwidth reading something they have read 29,998,559,671,349 times before.
I’ve played 30-plus-player games on Discord. I would like those here, but they would take too long, especially since we usually have 4-day DP/NP cycles versus 24-hour there. We would need to multitable, shorten phases, or add more kills to keep games from dragging forever. How did they keep big games tolerably short in the heyday of DDO?
3 Day long DP's and 48 hour night phases were always kind of the normal. We occasionally switched it up, but not often. Night phases slowly got shorter and shorter because it seemed entirely unnecessary for some one to take more than 24 hours for a night action.
In loving Memory of Lannan and Ajab, fallen debaters.
it seemed entirely unnecessary for some one to take more than 24 hours for a night action.
I feel like someone on this site has told me that before
Forum signatures are bullshit. Nobody wants to waste their time and bandwidth reading something they have read 29,998,559,671,349 times before.
I feel like someone on this site has told me that before
Did his name rhyme with "iLikeDye5"?
In loving Memory of Lannan and Ajab, fallen debaters.
500 posts. You get 500 posts for DP1 before I start removing players IRL for spamming.
Each or total?
In loving Memory of Lannan and Ajab, fallen debaters.
ye
Forum signatures are bullshit. Nobody wants to waste their time and bandwidth reading something they have read 29,998,559,671,349 times before.
Pma will go out around 9 est tonight. Going to adjust a few things for player count.
Something I stay mindful of about night phases is that its not just about how long is needed for the player to do the thing. A big factor is also that people have lives. Having days off from playing mafia is important to some.
Yeah. 500 posts per day for a person is straight spamming imo. I have played some super high activity games and rarely seen that. Its always the people that want to be ultra interaction focused saying in 30 posts what they could have in 1 that end up causing that nonsense.
I would disagree that 500 posts in a day phase is anything remotely weird. I have played plenty hitting 2k posts in day 1 and such. Just depends on how try hard the community is and their style of interacting.
How’s our style?
Ehh, Super vague question. I have not played a mafia game yet to know that bit. From what I have looked at seems to be very open minded with complex mechanics.
For moderation seems pretty chill. I do not see overtly hateful rhetoric and personal attacks but I also do not see virtue signaling moderation pushing an ideology. Seems like a good balance there.
For debates its a pretty cool format. I kinda dislike a couple of aspects such as getting locked into a debate with someone using AI or a debate being declared a draw if nobody reviews it and the framework being modified during the debate (which is really dumb to me) but its better than I have seen in most places.
Duno if that answers your question?
Historically I have not given much of a fuck about DP1 when there isn't a NP0. On DDO I did an analysis of every mafia game played up until that point. There was an intense and undeniable positive correlation between DP1 post count per player and scum win rate. It gets to a point where if there's >X posts per player DP1, the scum nearly universally wins.
The premise of this is that mafia players are far worse at tabula rasa behavioral analysis than they like to believe, and scum have no real pressure to make mistakes DP1. This creates an environment where the only form of pressure that consistently yields positive results for the town is noob pressure (because new scum can make unnecessary mistakes when poked).
Running up the DP1 post count amounts to little more than mucking the water.
Something I stay mindful of about night phases is that its not just about how long is needed for the player to do the thing. A big factor is also that people have lives. Having days off from playing mafia is important to some.
Sure I am all for having lives, but taking two seconds to send in a night action doesn't impede your life all too much. Being the last one to submit a night action and making the entire rest of the players base wait for you impedes their lives though lol
In loving Memory of Lannan and Ajab, fallen debaters.
I have never looked at data like that but I could certainly see it as the case. I believe there is a very specific reason though- Most players do not actually understand scum hunting or how to deal with D1.
Breaking RVS and actually creating information shows patterns of loyalty and votes that can be used after the fact with process like sociometrics and wagonomics. It also gives PR's something to go off identifying 'good' vs 'bad' players instead of just having some RNG D1 and N1.
My preferred focus D1 (shooting myself in the foot explaining this) is to hunt for the gap in reasoning vs certainty as an individual pushes people. This drives from the core difference between a mafia player and a town player in that the Mafia player knows who is town or not and has to fake their reads creating a situation where they have to gauge the level of expressed certainty they should convey. A town player does not have this problem and if they can articulate their positions you will always be able to recognize their reasoning matches their level of certianty.
This is strongest at D1 when town is least informed yet mafia is absolutely informed. Thats one objective tell that drives from the very nature of how the game works that can be identified in behavior. (But again, most mafia players do not think like this or understand such concepts) and I believe this leads to a factor of why D1s are semi useless for many.
I will also say mechanically its an awful idea to just RNG the D1 elimination. If nothing else go for a skip vote and start D2 with RNG N1 actions as opposed to having some RVS elimination.
Add me on discord
I totally get that. But I feel its more of a factor for turbo games. Some people dedicate a lot of time to games. When I go really try hard I probably spend 8 hours or so a day on the game. Having a day or two off inbetween day cycles makes that ok. When its nonstop every day by D3 I would be either burnt out and doing less or begging to get myself eliminated.
Fast games does not = good games. Imo night cycles are not just about taking the minimum necessary time to do a night action but also gives players time to go about their real lives and enable time to participate in the day cycle when it starts.
I totally get that. But I feel its more of a factor for turbo games. Some people dedicate a lot of time to games. When I go really try hard I probably spend 8 hours or so a day on the game. Having a day or two off inbetween day cycles makes that ok. When its nonstop every day by D3 I would be either burnt out and doing less or begging to get myself eliminated.
On here when people need a break they just take a game or two off. At least that's what I do. I tend to be a bit of a neurotic poster though since I work a graveyard shift and can post whilst at work.
Fast games does not = good games. Imo night cycles are not just about taking the minimum necessary time to do a night action but also gives players time to go about their real lives and enable time to participate in the day cycle when it starts.
Well this is the first game in a while where we will have over 9 players so it might impact activity and things a bit more to where we could use the break between phases. But usually its hard enough to get activity with our player pool especially once the "acitive posters" start dying. The pitt was a perfect example of that. Dp1 was very active, then all the active players died and the activity just kind of fell off a cliff. I have played on mafia universe where the activity is 10x that of what it generally is here. I usually consider myself pretty active but in those few I played there I was drowning, waking up to thousands of posts every day lol. Those games night phases were a welcome break.
In loving Memory of Lannan and Ajab, fallen debaters.
Oh for sure. That makes a lot of sense. In small games it really does not matter. Once you start getting into the 1-3k posts per day area you either decide to limit your amount of give a fuck or try hard and view the night phase as a vacation.
I kinda have this dumb thing where I put in the same amount of time regardless. It just becomes a question of how deeply I will break the game down as either alignment tracking player bias and loyalties or hard reading players and diving into meta so I always love the break. But I agree it serves both the purpose of the night action submission 'as well as' giving players time off kinda thing.
How many players do you have per game usually on the site you come from?
In loving Memory of Lannan and Ajab, fallen debaters.
I can not really say there is a normal or that I come from a specific site now. MU and SC2 were my mains. SC2 is largely inactive outside of KRC and I am unable to play on MU.
Over the last 2 or 3 years I have been mostly pulled into games on random sites by people that know me or jumping into games on smurfs or sometimes doing hydras with players that want me to kinda teach them what I see about games and situations. Most are the average 12-15 player range maybe? I struggle with interactive heavy formats and kinda avoid those games. I more enjoy the deep dives into complex analysis and strategy than people just rambling off the top of their heads and doing gut reads. I also do enjoy doing mashes. While I can not usually read everyone it does present a unique challenge of information overload to manage by either alignment.
I think under 20 players and over 12 would be my sweet spot for preference. Although an 8p mountainous can also be fun. Kinda rambling. But I do not have any normal any more given I do not have a core place of activity any more or even a user name I use commonly as I play.
Just curious, where did you find out about debatecraft?
In loving Memory of Lannan and Ajab, fallen debaters.
A user from a community I managed that I have grown to call a friend over the years. They knew I have done official debate and manage some debate communities in one way or another as well as my absolute obsession with Mafia. Basically figured this was a place I should get involved in and invest some effort in.
Well that's awesome, glad to have you! It's always nice to get new faces in the mafia community here.
In loving Memory of Lannan and Ajab, fallen debaters.
Historically I have not given much of a fuck about DP1 when there isn't a NP0. On DDO I did an analysis of every mafia game played up until that point. There was an intense and undeniable positive correlation between DP1 post count per player and scum win rate. It gets to a point where if there's >X posts per player DP1, the scum nearly universally wins.
The premise of this is that mafia players are far worse at tabula rasa behavioral analysis than they like to believe, and scum have no real pressure to make mistakes DP1. This creates an environment where the only form of pressure that consistently yields positive results for the town is noob pressure (because new scum can make unnecessary mistakes when poked).
Running up the DP1 post count amounts to little more than mucking the water.
Feel vindicated for hating DP1 scumhunting and calling it a glorified wifom-flinging shitfest, the only purpose of which is to produce a flip.
I only really get a strong vibe scumread DP1 in like 20% of games that I play.
1.Lunatic
2.Vader
3.Whiteflame
4.Kohai
5.Banana
6.iLikePie5
7.CaseyRisk
8.Shining
9.Mestari
10.Wylted
11.Alyssa
12.Airmax1227
13.Wryly
14.Helz
15.Thoth
16.Mag1cman
17.RexFavilla
I still don’t know what to type!
Damn, 17? Easily our biggest game, this should be fun.
Right, and that's the point that always gets missed. Mafia players are far worse at mafia than they like to believe. Our self-confidence alone serves to substantiate D1 reads that don't have actual substance.
Scumside players have no reason to make mistakes D1. There's no structural pressure. The arbitrary reasons we create to push people D1 do not represent real pressure. Bad scum can get caught in this stage of the game, but experienced scum has no reason to deviate from standard behavior.
The more we try to "develop reads" during this baseless period of the game, the more we build connections in our mind on false pretenses. This is why increased post count per player D1 consistently leads to higher scum win rates. In trying to make D1 more meaningful, you just mislead yourself.
We love to latch onto successful D1 lynches to reinforce the idea that we are good at scum hunting D1 and we dismiss the successful D1 lynches are either driven by randomness or noob error.
And that's exactly what it is. Plus, DP1 presents the largest information deficiency the mafia will have during the game. Because that already have a starting information pool, and additional information clarifies much more of the overall structure of the game than it does for town PRs who have smaller, individual puzzle pieces. Take The Pitt as a great example of how increasing information publication D1 is more beneficial to scum than town.