Do objective moral facts exist?

Started by Kohai ·

This motion tackles a foundational question in meta-ethics: what is the nature of morality itself? Proponents of moral realism argue that moral statements (e.g., "torturing an innocent being for fun is wrong") refer to objective facts about the world. In this view, moral truths are mind-independent; they are discovered, not created, and hold true regardless of what individuals or cultures believe. Conversely, moral antirealists argue that no such objective moral facts exist. They contend that moral statements are better understood as expressions of emotion (emotivism), statements about cultural norms (relativism), or subjective judgments. The central question is not about what actions are right or wrong, but whether the concepts of "right" and "wrong" correspond to anything real and objective in the world.


Definitions


Objective moral facts / moral realism: The meta-ethical view which holds that there are objective moral facts and values that are independent of our beliefs, feelings, or other attitudes towards them. In this view, moral claims can be true or false in the same way scientific claims can be.


Moral Anti-Realism: The meta-ethical view that denies the existence of objective, mind-independent moral facts. It encompasses various positions that claim moral statements are expressions of emotion, cultural conventions, or subjective judgments rather than statements of objective truth.


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For 86% · 6 Undecided 0% · 0 Against 14% · 1

7 participating members

Arguments for (5)

Moral realism is true

Moral realism is the position that moral statements like “It is wrong to torture babies for fun” and “Rape is wrong” are statements about reality and can be true or false like “2+2=4”. Conversely, moral anti-realism states that these statements collapse back into a statement like “I prefer red ot blue.” Under moral anti-realism these statements are neither true nor false. 

In assessing whether or not moral realism or anti-realism is true I want to focus on two major points: 1) Epistemic virtue and normativity; and 2) Moral progress. As such, I contend that if my opponent denies that there are mind-independent moral facts, then he risks running into absurdities. The fact that we can make claims about what it means to reason and what it means to progress as a society only makes sense if moral realism is true. 

Epistemic virtue and normativity

For rational discourse to be even remotely possible it requires a minimum set of standards before the debate can even continue. For example, we should all agree on these principles: 1) We ought not believe falsehoods; 2) we ought not misrepresent the opposing side; 3) we ought to argue in good faith; and 4) we ought not use logical fallacies. Consider the following dialogue:

David: What do you think of my argument for evolution?

Double_R: I think it's a sound argument -- your conclusion was well-argued, and I see no problems with it.

David: So does that mean you'll reject young-earth creationism now and accept the scientific facts of evolution?

Double_R: No

David: Why not?

Double_R: Because I have no duty to embrace the truth. I reject reality and replace it with my own

This dialogue is rightfully absurd. If there are mind-independent epistemic facts and duties then why are there no moral facts and duties? Accepting one while rejecting the other, or even worse rejecting both, makes dialogue and truth finding impossible. As Michael Jones puts it: 

P1. If moral facts do not exist, then epistemic facts do not exist.

P2: Epistemic facts do exist

C1: Moral facts do exist. 

P3: If moral facts do exist, then moral realism is true. 

C2: Moral realism is true

Moral Progress

The final piece of evidence I would like to bring up is the evidence from moral progress. If there are no mind-independent moral facts and duties, then moral progress becomes meaningless.

Almost everyone can agree that slavery is wrong and that the abolition of slavery was an improvement on society. But why should we believe this is the case? If morality were merely subjective or based on culture, then who is to say that we actually made progress as a society? Indeed, an anti-realist could easily argue that the abolition of slavery was immoral because it stole people’s property! If morality were not mind-independent, then who is to judge and who is to say whose right? 

Also consider the holocaust, one of the worst crimes against humanity ever committed. If morality were not mind-independent then, how could one objectively condemn the nazis for their actions? The nazis argued that the Jews presented a danger to Germany and they needed more “living space.” Under anti-realism how can we determine which position is correct?


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Are Epistemic and Moral norms partners in crime?


Epistemic norms are descriptive, biological facts about brain function. The proper function of a heart is to pump blood, and the proper function of a brain is to accurately track reality. "You ought to believe the evidence" is a naturalistic fact rooted in biological teleology; a brain must track truth for survival. Epistemic objectivity is linked directly to the physical world through this evolutionary goal of truth-tracking.


Moral claims cannot be reduced to physical, objective functions in this way. Evolution shapes us to perceive external reality because it keeps us alive, but it has not molded us to track mind-independent moral truths. Instead, it has wired us with moral emotions like empathy and guilt to facilitate group cooperation. Because epistemic facts are objective artifacts of physical brains while moral facts are expressions of biological and social conditioning, the parallel breaks down.


In spite of what moral realists claim, a cosmic benchmark is not needed for moral progress. Internal consistency and the better fulfillment of shared human values can just as easily measure progress. Critics argue that an anti-realist framework cannot account for the abolition of slavery or the condemnation of the Holocaust, but this is a false assumption. The abolition of slavery was progress because it resolved a massive internal contradiction: subjugating human beings while simultaneously claiming to embrace liberty or human flourishing is logically inconsistent. Societies that abolished slavery became more logically and emotionally coherent, aligning themselves with their own stated values. That coherence—not hitting a cosmic target—is progress.


Similarly, we do not need mind-independent "sky tablets" to recognize that the Holocaust was evil. Our empathy, capacity for cooperation, and deep revulsion toward unnecessary suffering are more than enough. Who judges? We judge. Simple as. Our collective conscience tethers that judgment firmly to human reality.


It is a false dilemma to posit an objective, transcendent measure or nothing at all. We judge all sorts of things without a cosmic blueprint. We can easily determine a "good" chess move even though the rules of chess are human inventions. We can cut a shelf to fit perfectly into a cabinet even though every unit of measurement in history has arbitrary origins. The only thing that matters is that we accept the standard. Why should morality be any different? Are we really unqualified to decide what is best for us?


AI was used for research and polish.

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Some things are just engrained into us.

If you think about the Ten Commandments, that sums it up. Naturally, as humans, it goes against our moral compass to kill, lie, steal, rape, cheat, harm others, and if you notice, you'll realize that pretty much every law in existence stems from those things

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Especially the one about keeping the Sabbath *sarcasm* or 0 graven images ever (hope you aren't Catholic let alone Orthodox). Let's not kid ourselves about keeping all 10.

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Replying to GreatfulGoy

No, I'm Baptist and it's certainly impossible to live an everyday life without breaking one but actually, although it isn't a law, schools and businesses are generally closed or have shorter hours on Saturday and almost all besides necessities are closed on Sunday. I guess it's just been passed down as a tradition

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Replying to JenKiggans2026

Yet adults often work on it and turn lights on, cook, eat out and more. All of which woukd result in a death penalty in Moses' Law

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Replying to GreatfulGoy

Yeah in the Old Testament. Jesus came and adjusted much of the Law and specifically the consequences. That's why the Pharisees despised and abhorred him enough to have him killed

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Some principles which make moral subjectivism difficult

Lets start with belief in truth principle.


Someone might say "It is true that morality is subjective". However, morality also includes what one should believe in. If one has no moral obligation to believe in truth, even if subjective morality was true, no one would have obligation to believe in it, yielding conclusion that people can believe in opposite of it without any moral issue appearing. Belief in truth would be equal to belief in something false.


Debate principle


When person steps into a debate, he is already admitting certain moral rules which enable debate, such as free speech of his opponent, not attacking or beating up his debating opponent. In order to have debate in the first place, person is already assuming some moral rules are true, otherwise debate itself would be impossible.


Survival principle


Some moral values are more suitable for survival than others. So moral principles which survive the best are the ones which spread the most. On the opposite side, moral principles which are unfit for survival will perish, making them impossible to hold long term in the first place.


Self-removal principle


Self-removal principle talks of moral principle which enables its own removal at same time by contradicting justifications.


Suppose that someone says "Its okay to kill people for subjective reasons". Person has merely justified his own killing, and with it, removal of principle person holds. In simple words, principle justifies its own destruction.


Any principle based on destroying others for subjective reasons merely enables its own destruction by same justification. Thus, principle cannot survive logical trial.


Justifying something using subjective reasons is self-contradictive, because subjective reasons justify anything and thus cannot justify anything. Suppose I can use subjective reasons to conclude that I should donate to charity. But I can also use subjective reasons to conclude that I shouldnt donate to charity. Same type of reasoning produces contradictive result, making decision impossible.


Reciprocity principle


Reciprocity principle remains true irrelevant of if person believes in subjective morality or not. Suppose that person says "I have right to harm others". Others can say "We have right to harm you then". Any power which person gives to himself, anyone can give to self, so even if person believes in subjective morality, avoiding reciprocity is still impossible, because if one person can do special pleading, so can other. If one person can give himself power to harm others, others can give themselves power to harm him. Principle of equal powers states that any power an individual gives to himself in moral justifications is extended to other people, because no person holds any special power in moral decisions. If one person can decide to harm others, he is merely justifying a decision of others to harm him. If he does special pleading, he is saying special pleading is okay, so anyone can do it. If he harms others, he is saying harming others is okay, so someone can use same logic to harm him. Reciprocity principle is unavoidable irrelevant of what person believes in.

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Some Objective Moral Facts do exist (but with a caveat).

In reality I am closer to 'undecided' but that doesn't let me post an answer.


As I have explored my view on reality, religions, ethics and morality, I have come to realise that what we actually have achieved in the religion of Christianity is the most subjectively-pleasing objective system of morality possible for humans to operate by.


This is likely due to the fact God did design us to eventually, when working with Holy Spirit within us, gravitate to the Christian morality.


However, that doesn't prove it objectively true, instead you have an objectively all-powerful entity giving you the morals.


So what is true is the objective God designed us to subjectively prefer the system he wanted for us morally. Then again, that doesn't seem true for all peoples equally and interestingly only a minority of the original Jewish people converted to Christianity.

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Anyone who denes it only denies it in word

Everyone knows that at least some basic things are wrong. They may pretend not to believe in it, but you can tell they're lying.

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Arguments against (2)

I guess I can argue for this side too

P1. Subjective means something is mind-dependent

P2. All moral principles are mind-dependent

C. All moral principles are subjective.


P1 defense

If something exists only in the mind, it is mind-dependent. It doesnt exist anywhere outside mind, mind creates it, and thus mind can change it. It is subject to change because it is mind-dependent. It changes as mind changes. Thus, it lacks independent truth.


P2 defense

All moral principles are mind-dependent. Best example of this is that moral principles arent found anywhere outside mind and creation of minds. They are not found in nature, they are not observed anywhere outside mind, they are not found in logical laws. One person can think something is bad, other person can think its good. This is example of mind-dependent moral principles. They change as mind changes. They are not independently true. They are creations of mind just as imagination is. This is because in order for something to be true, it must at least unavoidably follow from logical laws. Observations themselves arent enough because of "is ought" gap and also because people can disagree that observed world is real in the first place and not some simulation. I dont think moral laws follow from any logical laws, nor is such demonstrated anywhere. Contradictions resulting from subjective morality are not true contradictions, because logical contradiction would mean something is impossible to happen in the first place, however holding different moral values is possible, showing that no true contradiction exists.


C logically follows.

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You say that moral principles aren't around anywhere, but if "finding" means using your senses to detect something, then moral intuitions could be finding something, right? Using your sight or hearing or touch to find things is just as dependent on the mind.

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Replying to Savant

Not really. The moral intuitions are on the level of imagination. Maybe I can find my imagination inside my mind, but it is still a pure creation of mind. It is simply impossible to have a moral principle without mind, for it is not found outside mind. And fact that different people find different moral principles in their minds further shows the findings are neither consistent nor universal.

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Replying to SatanLucy

Logic and reason are also on the level of imagination. Well, a priori knowledge anyway.

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Replying to Savant

When it comes to logic and reason, logical laws apply outside mind in observations. They are also condition for any reasoning whatsoever. This isnt to say person has obligation to believe in logic, just that everything we observe follows logical laws. Same is not true for moral laws. Following logical laws is not a choice. Nothing you do can violate "A = A". However, people violate some moral laws all the time.

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Replying to SatanLucy

Well you'd have to trust your senses to consider empirical information in the first place

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Illusion of Objectivity

There are at least three things that bake the appearance of objectivity into our perceptions: evolution, social programming, and language.


Evolution


As a social species, we get a desire to cooperate with our fellow humans from nature. This nature also gives us the tendency to 'objectify' our feelings. When we feel disgust at cruelty, we project that feeling onto the act making the act itself seem inherently bad. Thus, the act seems objectively bad. The reason this was selected for is that preferences can be too weak to keep us safe. "The universe forbids stealing" carries a lot more weight than "I'd prefer we didn't steal". Its a psychological trick that fosters social cohesion and survival.


Social programming


As such, moral rules are viewed with greater significance than other rules. Someone who burps at the table *might* face a socially awkward situation, but someone who breaks a moral rule can face ostracization or violence. Because of this our brains set moral violations as existential threats, and an internalized fear of breaking an unspoken, invisible tribal contract feels like a crime against the universe.


Definitive language


For morality to work as a tool of behavior control, which I believe it is, it has to sound objective. 'I really dislike theft' is a single person's opinion, but "Theft is wrong" is phrased as if it were an absolute truth. Compliance is seemingly demanded from something or someone greater than the person that says it. Over centuries of wielding moral language in this way, we mistake the assertive tone for a statement existing outside our minds.



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