Leaning

Merry Christmas.

@#312

Lot of times I'll just list to movies, rather than watch them straight,

Maybe I'll glance back in if I want to see a scene.

@#321

I'd imagine medicine makes it easy for people to mask a problem, rather than fix it's cause.

Course, I'm not sure a lot of people 'would fix the problems anyhow, even if they didn't have medication.

Still, either way, better to fix the problem and live a healthier lifestyle. Whether people tend to or not.

I suppose medication might give people the 'opportunity to live longer, and fix their problem causes.

Just saw a couple movies on YouTube.

I enjoyed both of them.

The Court Jester (1955)

The Princess And The Pirate (1944)

It was kind of funny, The Princess and the Pirate. set in the pirate era, but one hears all the accents, lingo, and slang of the 50s.

One 'would think countries that can afford armies of soldiers, could afford armies of healthcare and social workers.

But that's the problem with established laws and contracts.

And why people in my view should create new countries, 'or organizations within countries.

"If the Great Enemy comes with offers of power to a wretch, what reason does he have to refuse hell if he dwells in it already?"

Guilliman, Devastation of Baal by Guy Haley

I assume there's often a connection between poverty and crime.

. . . But crime is not Fascism. . .

Assumption perhaps is that unhappy desperate people vote in dictators?

Poor population. . . Vs Great Depression.

There is a difference perhaps. .

Depressions not always easy to stop or control.

The Nazis, wasn't only because of the Depression and poor people, I think.

. . . Hm, an irony,

Propaganda, Beliefs, WW1 Treaty anger, political instability.

. .

The irony is perhaps one suggests educating the masses with the 'right information.

By the mandate and power of government.

Yet what do Dictatorships do?

Indoctrinate, Re Educate, Condition, Influence.

Not that 'non Dictatorships 'can't.

People are 'often attempting power and sway, influence, to result in ends of people and society that they desire.

My mom swims, about 40 minutes usually when she goes.

Says it's no problem at all on her knees.

She walks and hikes a bit too, says that's harder on her knees.

What about warmer water swimming?

He's doing alright, trying to get his blood pressure down.

'Trying to eat healthier and walk more.

We watched the new Running Man in the Theaters,

Watched the older Running Man at home.

Watched The Day of the Triffids (1951) at home.

I preferred the last two movies mentioned,

The new Running Man just didn't do it for me.

I am willing to listen,

But you would need to talk more or cite more, for me to understand.

I'm under the impression that Gehenna was/also a literal physical location?

Hell. . . Well, a bad death 'is a sort of hell.

One usually doesn't 'get to the afterlife without dying.

Hell/Death.

And where are evil going to be in the Christian afterlife but Hell? Separated from God and continuing their self destructive perhaps.

. . . Though even when I was Christian, I did not believe Hell was some fiery pit of torture and red horned devils, I still would not even if I was Christian again.

. . . Though figurative and metaphor also pop to my mind.

A good death in peace, at home, loving family,

A bad death in famine or war, pain.

Though even in life, figuratively, I think people can be in hells of their own making.

"Valley of Hinnom') is a Biblical toponym that has acquired various theological connotations, including as a place of divine punishment, in Jewish eschatology.

The place is first mentioned in the Hebrew Bible as part of the border between the tribes of Judah and Benjamin (Joshua 15:8). During the late First Temple period, it was the site of the Tophet, where some of the kings of Judah had sacrificed their children by fire (Jeremiah 7:31).[1] Thereafter, it was cursed by the biblical prophet Jeremiah (Jeremiah 19:2–6).[2]

In later rabbinic literature, "Gehinnom" became associated with divine punishment as the destination of the wicked for the atonement of their sins.[3][4] The term is different from the more neutral term Sheol, the abode of the dead. The King James Version of the Bible translates both with the Anglo-Saxon word hell.

Etymology

The Hebrew Bible refers to the valley as the "Valley of the son of Hinnom" (Hebrew: גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם),[5][6] or "Valley of Hinnom" (גֵי־הִנֹּם).[7] In Mishnaic Hebrew and Judeo-Aramaic languages, the name was contracted into Gēhīnnōm (גֵיהִינֹּם) or Gēhīnnām (גֵיהִינָּם) meaning "hell".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna

"Hell, which can be called sheol or hades. It has enlarged its self to recieve the millions and millions after christ, who would not repent after he told them to." - melcharaz

Or death, I think.

New International Version

"Therefore Death expands its jaws, opening wide its mouth; into it will descend their nobles and masses with all their brawlers and revelers."

https://biblehub.com/isaiah/5-14.htm

Context, Woes to the Wicked

https://biblehub.com/bsb/isaiah/5.htm

Earlier part of that chapter.

New International Version

"Woe to those who rise early in the morning to run after their drinks, who stay up late at night till they are inflamed with wine."

https://biblehub.com/isaiah/5-11.htm

. . .

I'm doubtful I should see this part of the Bible describing some literal flaming Hell.

I 'am uneducated, and get confused by the difficulty in Biblical research.

But the way 'I take that part of the Bible, is someone warning of how wicked lazy irresponsible behavior can lead to suffering and death.

Something that is often true whether of an individual or a nation.

Well, I don't suppose a person needs to be 'too intelligent to use some technology, cars, guns.

Nor do such technologies particularly 'grow a person's intelligence.

Computers, phones, and internet 'might though.

It gives people 'access to thoughts and ideas that can increase knowledge or how to order one's mind.

'Access isn't 'use though.

. . . There's also the idea one see's floated around sometimes, that various technological aids can make people less intelligent, if it does their thinking and problem solving 'for them.

Then they don't exercise their brain any.

. . .

How do we 'measure society and people's intelligence in a location over time?

School seems an easy way to keep track?

Everyone gets tested,

And we've had records and various levels of achievements to compare.

I'm not sure how long or extensive we've kept school records though.

@SomeDebatePerson #22

"Isn’t polygamy illegal in the US?"

Apparently so, somehow I thought it was legal in Utah, but I guess I'm wrong.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_polygamy_in_the_United_States

"Polygamy was outlawed in federal territories by the 1882 Edmunds Act, and there are laws against the practice in all 50 states,"

@Topic

"I'd like to share a revelation that I've had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species and I realized that you're not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment but you humans do not. You move to an area and you multiply and multiply until every natural resource is consumed and the only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet. You're a plague and we are the cure."

-Agent Smith, The Matrix (1999)

Visiting my dad for a couple weeks.

What type of cheese?

I am reminded of two stories on old age.

The Law of Life by Jack London

https://learningenglish.voanews.com/a/law-of-life-jack-london-85563527/113958.html

The Wooden Bowl

https://www.moralstories.org/the-wooden-bowl

. . .

In a way I suppose it is 'ability to spend money on the care of older individuals.

I also think about public and/or private health care systems.

My father says he still wants to live, says he still enjoys living. Be 69 years old soon.

Even after he had a fall a couple years back that broke some bones, still hinders him, he still enjoys life.

I still want him to be healthy, am willing to help him out when he needs it.

. . . Though admittedly it's easier to help people in some moments than others, and at times, one can lose the ability or willingness to help, the worse a person and their situation becomes.

. . .

Selfish. . . I'm not sure I see it any more or less selfish as young people.

Many of us live by a mixture of for ourselves and for others.

Costly operations. . . Depends on one's ability to pay it, I suppose. Whether one thinks one 'should spend it.

Value of life and experience is subjective, but it seems wrong to judge for other people what they choose to spend.

Seems wrong to devalue it in others, encourage death.

I 'do wonder if the ravages of age might not soon become a focus of people's attention.

And the question on how people choose to meet it.

Technology makes us ever more aware of the world.

Medicine 'has improved the 'body, it's ability to last to an old age.

I do wonder, how long we'll have a period of history where we have extended the longevity of the body to a high degree, but not the mind.

One does not need to like someone to love them, I think.

But I can see where you're coming from.

Lacking a liking for family, could make one's situation more bitter I imagine.

Dementia

Person 'best able to give a diagnosis would be a doctor I think.

But maybe it's also something that needs to be checked periodically to compare decline to past.

. . . Also I'd imagine people can sometimes be in earlier stages of mental decline, and are able to concentrate for a short period of time, such as an examination.

Maybe other medical tests can be preformed for certain types of mental decline.

I'd imagine some older individuals can also be in denial, if it ever happens to them.

Gradual, progressive changes I imagine.

It 'could just be stress and more normal effects of age on cognition.

Though assumably for your Dad, it was more obvious or a doctor stated it was so.

Burdens

It's not 'ideal when one has burdens in life.

Most people are a bit of a burden at times perhaps, I think.

Some people have carried me in life, and I've carried them some. Seems fair.

I also just love my family, makes me more willing to help them out when they have need.

. . . Course everyone has limits.

What of Tartarus or Nastrond?

"Tártaros)[1] is the deep abyss that is used as a dungeon of torment and suffering for the wicked and as the prison for the Titans. Tartarus is the place where, according to Plato's Gorgias (c. 400 BC), souls are judged after death and where the wicked received divine punishment. Tartarus appears in early Greek cosmology,"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartarus

"Norse mythology, Náströnd ("Corpse Shore") is a place in Hel where Níðhöggr devours the dead souls of the dishonorable. It is the afterlife for those guilty of murder, and severe oath-breaking."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Náströnd

That sounds logical.

. . .

“Tradition is a set of solutions for which we have forgotten the problems. Throw away the solution and you get the problem back. Sometimes the problem has mutated or disappeared. Often it is still there as strong as it ever was.”

― Donald Kingsbury, Courtship Rite

. . .

Hm, guessing and theorizing here.

Men and women were not always equal in history.

Multiple spouses could be lead to some being mistreated, or conflict between people.

Children of different parents, perhaps conflict of inheritance.

Some people are genetically able to handle alcohol better than others,

Some people by learning, are able to handle alcohol better than others.

But often as a rule of thumb, maybe most people cannot handle alcohol well. (During some time periods and locations)

. . .

Apply reasoning to relationships involving multiple people.

Even though 'theoretically people and societies might learn to handle a sharing of partners better.

And some have perhaps in history.

. . .

I also make artificial set/framework argument,

X being a Sin within X system.

A pawn in chess cannot move any which way.

. . .

Any Buddhist thoughts on sex and morality?

Heh, I'd agree I don't rate other animals intelligence as high as educated socialized adult humans with access to past stored information.

Though I'm not sure how to define intelligence and reason.

Arguably animals intelligence can be compared to humans, just that when comparing the two, we rate animals lower?

Some animals seem more intelligent to me than others,

Elephants, dolphins, chimps, border collies, cuttlefish.

Compared to a a grasshopper for instance.

Instinct, Nature vs Nurture,

Even a human will not develop as much locked up in a room or left alone as a feral child.

I assume animals become more or less intelligent depending on how they are nurtured.

Do you think animals have reasons for anything they do?

@#18

I have heard of the Law of Hospitality in various Pagan Religions before.

The value of Oaths.

Kinslaying.

I'm not sure if Ancient Greeks or Norse might have different words for sin,

But the concept seems 'roughly the same?

Wrongdoing, missing the mark, crime, taboo, sin.

@#17

A guiding star is a guiding star,

And limits are limits.

Of Nature and Nurture Values develop, and get held to.

Laws arise whether Individual's Lines, or Collective Agreements.

By Habit they burrow and hold fast.

They can change I admit,

Though there are 'versions of chess,

Specific versions can be identified and played primarily.

Some people turn to murder and cannibalism when there's no other food but people around.

But people 'still have parameters.

Ideas of Right and Wrong.

Subjective or not, they're not 'so subjective for most people that they change in a breath.

. . .

Is sex a sin?

I say yeah, to some people, no to others, depending on their values, even if they're Atheists,

Because even Atheists have values.

Doesn't matter if those values might shift 'eventually,

Various theoretical Moral and Ethical Frameworks exist.

. . . It's a bit like saying does 3 go into X?

Because there are multiple frameworks, the answer is yes and no.

Some frameworks are X as 2,

Others X is 3 or 9.

Just depends.

Atheists 'still hold to frameworks.

And often call various actions Right or Wrong within said frameworks.

People have different values, cultures, and traditions.

I'm tribal and clan inclined myself.

I'm not a huge fan of change.

Arguably people 'do group up according to values, to a degree.

. . .

Well, a bear can't read a sign, but people can.

Society and technology can be manipulated in various ways to enforce borders.

I'm thinking most 'everyone has ideas of right and wrong, even atheists.

Even the areligious can arguably have ideas of right and wrong regarding sex in various circumstances.

You seem a lot more negative about religion these days.

I'd actually rather Oregon was more Conservative I think.

In some ways.

Is sex a sin? To some people.

Do you mean sex at 'all or sex outside marriage?

Obvious reasons/circumstances, would be some such as,

Outside of marriage,

Pregnancy, dangerous to a woman, and a child can be costly.

Sure one can argue birth control exists,

. . . But I'm not going to complain about someone saying it's a sin to stab other people with knives, just because we can invent body armor, so stabbings no longer release our blood and life.

. . . Even 'with birth control, lot of people are careless, get pregnant anyway, can have negative life consequences, sometimes too early in life for some people.

Children are a big responsibility, to the kids one is responsible, to society that the kids later act within and upon.

Some partners are not right people one ought have and raise a child with.

Drinking while driving is bad, even if one does not hit another, perhaps.

. . .

Sex, can also spread disease STDs.

. . .

Possibly it can be seen in similar way some people view gambling and drinking.

Often an extreme focus for humans, pleasure above duty and rightness. Excess. Wasting of money above family or helping people.

Compulsive, addicting habit for some.

I'm still glad to see Buddhism talked about,

I'm not familiar with it's history or ideas, so it's interesting for me.

Still, that something 'didn't happen, is not proof that it could not have happened.

If Buddhism developed in Europe and Christianity in India, maybe much of history is the same.

Still a lot of wars in Europe, still a lot of colonialism in the Americas and Africa.

Geography, technological advances, age of sail, guns.

Not that religion and various iterations of religion have 'no effect.

But I do not think religion is the 'only effecting agent.

Blasted YouTube not posting my comments, fine I'll stick this here then.

Executions and Slavery,

I think I put more emphasis on social infrastructure and technology for lessening much of societies worse impulses.

But I also think without positive interpersonal moral systems and culture, societies can go a bad way, even 'with social infrastructure and technology.

If people don't care to keep and maintain it, it falls apart and get's destroyed.

The first world isn't immune to corruption, selfishness, or power seekers.

Slavery is a diverse concept,

One can see a value in it, in older societies that warred with one another, does one execute POW or imprison them in servitude?

Course, then one has another 'reason to war and raid.

In the older world without as many established institutions and tracking methods such as banks, fingerprints, or photos.

One 'always has one's body and time for manual labor to trade,

Servitude for a period of time, rather than eternal.

Often slaves having various rights.

I recall reading of the Jubilee and various other slave laws in the Bible,

That would result in the freeing of slaves.

Though I think they were more applied to their fellow Hebrews, than slaves not of their people.

The worst forms of slavery though, such as chattel slavery, and systems where slaves have no rights.

Are harder to justify.

. . .

Joseph de Maistre,

I can find a bit on him online. Such as his comparison between a soldier and an executioner. He looks an interesting thinker.

Hobbesian, Coercion must come from the outside, dislike of the primitive man and the savage, doesn't seem to value science too highly, authority must be dark impenetrable and uncriticizable, I don't much care for an excerpt where he talks of torture, Still, his writings look fascinating.

It does seem hypocritical, of society to condemn the executioner or the torturer, yet acclaim the soldier.

Though either is 'ideally supposed to work justly.

The executioner on the guilty, the soldier on other soldiers.

But the soldier in history 'has often been a raider, a killer and slaver of civilians, burner of crops and infrastructures.

I recently read a book about William Marshal, a knight of England around the time of Richard the Lionheart.

Part of the book that talked about how often armies would pillage and burn villages to prevent the other side from using them was interesting. Hardly fitting the 'idea one has of chivalric knights.

But one often doesn't 'think of the dirty aspect of soldiers and warriors I suppose.

One see's the power, the glory, connects and takes pride in the 'idea of a person struggling and fighting for his people.

As one does with a football team.

While the executioner and the torturer has ugly nasty jobs we don't want to think about, are often ashamed about.

Course on another hand, I've heard people were often fond of attending public executions.

. . .

I can see the appeal of unquestioned value,

I am a Nihilist in a sense, when I look at morality, it all seems so arbitrary and subjective at times, what people value.

Anything one looks at, enough dissembling and I don't see the 'ought,

Only that 'if a person cares about that, logically he would care about this. And act in thus manner.

Still, cherry picker of the Bible I am,

Proverbs Four Seven, fourteen fifteen,

Timothy two seven,

Thessalonians five twenty-one,

Mathew seven fifteen,

The Bible frequently encourages people to think and be cautious of their faith.

Though admittedly other passages encourage faith more than reason.

. . .

Human Nature

Who can say what a 'natural human would do?

Given all humans are so formed by Nurture?

. . . Though I am defining Nature as genetics, rather than what one see's non humans doing in nature, the plants and animals.

I don't think it's 'all Nurture,

. . . Some animals have their nature, can't be domesticated, same with some humans, their genetics strongly push them on a path.

Mencius took the other idea of humans being innately good,

Stories such as the child falling down a well,

Or Ox Mountain.

Though I prefer his story on Ox Mountain,

The effects of nurture on people.

It rings the same with me as in White Fang by Jack London.

Throughout the book, one see's the effect of nurture.

The Parable of the Sower in the Bible,

Has long influenced me in thinking on how people are influenced by where they end up, what they interact with in life.

. . .

Closing thought,

I prefer the middle way, more than man is evil or man is good.

. . . The Bible I'd say focuses a lot on the fallibility of humans, which is not bad, it seems something good to be reminded of.

Remember you are a man, as a Roman slave might say.

But the Bible often spoke of the Hebrews for example, frequently being given so much by God, yet in action they frequently turned away,

Committed evil.

You have another song I enjoy about Absalom.

Even great individuals in the Bible such as David, chosen by God, were still human, flawed, committed evil, that often was self destructive.

Though, I'm not fond of claiming no fault or blame, as song I'm Only Human by Rag'n'Bone Man might say.

I can 'appreciate it, but I dislike focusing on what's out of my control,

And prefer being aware of what 'is in my control, what I 'could have done, what I 'might do in the future.