Mag1cman
Foundational to Christianity is belief that Jesus made an atoning sacrifice to pay for our sins and through personal acceptance of Jesus as savior, our sins will be forgiven. All but one sin, there is a sin that Jesus said could not be forgiven, and that "unforgivable sin" is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, for which the penalty is eternal damnation. (Matthew 12:31-33, Mark 3:29, Luke 12:10)

Correct. However, a note on the context, taken from that chapter in Matthew (although that part of Mark 3 or Luke 12, which references a part of Luke 11, work just as well):


22 Then they brought him a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute, and Jesus healed him, so that he could both talk and see. 23 All the people were astonished and said, “Could this be the Son of David?”

24 But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.”

25 Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? 27 And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.


So the Pharisees blasphemed against the Spirit by witnessing a work of the Spirit and attributing it to Satan. This disproves what you assert later.


Considering Christ's uncompromising warning, I think it is important to examine just what the unforgivable sin is and perhaps remind Christians of it. I single out offending Christians here because in Hebrews 6:4-6 the unforgivable sin is associated with "falling away", it clearly states that only Christians can commit this sin, and it claims the offenders are crucifying Jesus again while putting Him to an open shame.


Let's talk about this passage in Hebrews:


Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,[a] and of faith in God, 2 instruction about cleansing rites,[b] the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And God permitting, we will do so.

4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[c] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.


So, this passage isn't covering the unforgivable sin; it's talking about those who will never truly repent.


When I see some Christians engaging in so much denominational strife and religious one-upmanship, which upon consideration of Scripture is in fact what Jesus referred to as "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit", I can't imagine Jesus being anything but openly shamed by such a divided house.

In Matthew 12 Jesus says a divided house cannot stand, in his definition of the unforgivable sin he makes a clear distinction between blasphemies against Him (forgivable), and the Holy Spirit (unforgivable), and then immediately reminds us that you should only judge a tree by it's fruit.


Refer to the passage from Matthew above. When Jesus talks of a house that cannot stand, He is refuting the idea that He could be driving out demons by Satan's powers. What you speak of is not the divided house that Jesus is speaking of in this passage.


Jesus said he came for ALL men, transcending the very notion of religious exclusion. In the context of the absolute laws of unity and compassion that He embodied and the utterly non-dual nature of his teachings, exemplified in the statement that "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:28 , Colossians 3:11) there can be little question about what the unforgivable sin is.


The verses you cite here are with reference to race relations between Jews and Gentiles. Notice the whole "You are one in Christ Jesus" part. How can a Muslim be one with a Christian in Christ, when Muslims DO NOT accept Christ and their Lord God and Savior? The verses you cite do not aid your position, but refute it.


I will again point to that passage in John I showed you yesterday:


16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.


If a gift is sent to you, but you reject it, it is not your gift.


When asked to, Jesus summarized all of his teaching into the maxim that you should love your neighbor as you love yourself (Matthew 22:36-39 and Mark 12:28-31, also see Leviticus 19:18, Galatians 5:14 ,Matthew 22:39, Luke 10:27, James 2:8, John 1:5, John 13:34), something impossible to do without recognizing that your neighbor's faith is to him, what your faith is to you. Christ said that the true Kingdom of God was within, that his father's house had many mansions and that a Kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation and a divided house cannot stand.


Above, it has been proven that redemption requires Christ. How then can I love my neighbor when I fail to introduce him to Christ? I can't. If anything, the most hateful thing a Christian can do is to fail to minister to others (of which debate is a method), including Muslims.


And given that those who reject Christ are not saved, your idea that "recognising that your brother's religion is to him what yours is to you," which you use to condemn bringing God's message to Muslims (the good and the bad), is actively harmful to efforts of salvation.


In NONE of the passages you cite, or anywhere else in the Bible, is the claim that refuting Islam and warning Muslims of their doom (if they do not convert) is a hateful act. The notion is refuted explicitly by Matthew 28:18-20:


18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”


The unforgivable sin then, is to have been to the mountaintop of the transcendent and non-dual love of Christ's understanding of God, and to again become dual minded and unstable (James 1:8), and to judge the Holy Spirit working in others by the external trappings of ritual and dogma rather than looking beyond those things to the Kingdom within (Luke 17:21), judging by something other than the fruit of the Holy Spirit, especially when the agenda of tribal denominationalism causes someone to totally deny His teachings and attribute the work of God's Spirit in others to demonic forces.


Similar to the passage from Hebrews, James is on a different subject. Now let's take a look at the passage from Luke:


20 Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, 21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.”[c]

22 Then he said to his disciples, “The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. 23 People will tell you, ‘There he is!’ or ‘Here he is!’ Do not go running off after them. 24 For the Son of Man in his day[d] will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other. 25 But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.

26 “Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27 People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.

28 “It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29 But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.

30 “It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed. 31 On that day no one who is on the housetop, with possessions inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything. 32 Remember Lot’s wife! 33 Whoever tries to keep their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.” [36] [e]


This passage isn't even relevant to your claim. While the Pharisees were infamous for their dogma, observing the letter of the law but not the spirit of it, this verse is not about judging others.


You do, however, cite a verse about judging others later, and I will get to that.


Along with almost every other major religion, Christianity maintains that God is transcendent to human understanding (Isaiah 55:8-9, 1 Corinthians 13:12 , Romans 11:33, and scads more) and Scripture is filled with supporting statements, explicitly telling us that no man knows as he ought to know (1 Corinthians 8:1-2 ), every man has his proper gift of God after different manners (1 Corinthians 7:7),


God is transcendent to human understanding, yes. However, the idea of Jesus being the Messiah is not beyond our understanding. Remember that Hebrews passage you cited? It describes accepting Jesus as part of the very basics. And once again, the contexts do not support your claim that Muslims go to Heaven, according to God:


Examples:


Isaiah 55:7-9:


Seek the Lord while he may be found;

    call on him while he is near.

7 Let the wicked forsake their ways

    and the unrighteous their thoughts.

Let them turn to the Lord, and he will have mercy on them,

    and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts,

    neither are your ways my ways,”

declares the Lord.

9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth,

    so are my ways higher than your ways

    and my thoughts than your thoughts.


This passage is about how God is not wicked, but righteous, above the ways of the wicked.


1 Corinthians 8:


Now about food sacrificed to idols: We know that “We all possess knowledge.” But knowledge puffs up while love builds up. 2 Those who think they know something do not yet know as they ought to know. 3 But whoever loves God is known by God.[a]

4 So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that “An idol is nothing at all in the world” and that “There is no God but one.” 5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

7 But not everyone possesses this knowledge. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat sacrificial food they think of it as having been sacrificed to a god, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled. 8 But food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do.

9 Be careful, however, that the exercise of your rights does not become a stumbling block to the weak. 10 For if someone with a weak conscience sees you, with all your knowledge, eating in an idol’s temple, won’t that person be emboldened to eat what is sacrificed to idols? 11 So this weak brother or sister, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge. 12 When you sin against them in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother or sister to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause them to fall.


The first few verses are Paul telling the church of Corinth to be humble and listen to him. Then Paul tells members of the church of Corinth not to go and eat food offered to idols in idol temples, which most likely includes the leftovers sold in the market as well. This one is ironic for our purposes: Instead of telling Christians to tell the Hellenists that their ways are just another approach to religion, Paul tells the Christians to make a point of rejecting the practices of other religions.


Romans 11:25-33:


25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way[e] all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;

    he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.

27 And this is[f] my covenant with them

    when I take away their sins.”[g]

28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h] receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Doxology

33 Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and[i] knowledge of God!

    How unsearchable his judgments,

    and his paths beyond tracing out!

34 “Who has known the mind of the Lord?

    Or who has been his counselor?”[j]

35 “Who has ever given to God,

    that God should repay them?”[k]

36 For from him and through him and for him are all things.

    To him be the glory forever! Amen.


This passage is about how God works in mysterious ways to achieve His plans. To get ahead of a counterargument: If you are about to claim that today's Christians are hardened to eventually bring God's mercy to Muslims, keep in mind that would still entail the Muslims accepting Christ, as the Gentiles in this passage have. As such, a Christian ministering the truth of Christ to a Muslim cannot be a part of said hardening (again, John 3:16-18 and Matthew 28:18-20 are useful in refuting this notion).


with explicit consequential statements that therefore, we should not judge others (out of hundreds of references, Matthew 7:1 and 1 Corinthians 4:5 stand out).

Matthew 7:1-5:


7 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.


This verse does not tell Christians never to repeat God's judgment to Muslims. Rather, it is a verse about avoiding hypocrisy. Notice how you are free to critique your brother when you are no longer guilty of the same sins. If we take that concept and apply it to our purposes here, the saved (Christians) are in a position to minister to those who are not (Muslims).


The 1 Corinthians passage you cite is... complex. If you read the entirety of chapters 3 and 4, you will see that the members are dividing themselves into groups based on which church leader they follow: Paul or Apollos.


1 Corinthians 3:1-4


Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 3 You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans? 4 For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere human beings?


This is the first place in your entire case where you have the slightest of points: Prioritising denomination over God has damaged this church.


However:

  1. The above passage states that they are quarrelling, which is beyond merely debating.
  2. These are Christians fighting amongst themselves; it does not aid your case with relevance to Muslims.


Furthermore, in 1 Corinthians 4:1-7:


4 This, then, is how you ought to regard us: as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the mysteries God has revealed. 2 Now it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful. 3 I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. 4 My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God.

6 Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.” Then you will not be puffed up in being a follower of one of us over against the other. 7 For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?


"Judge not" is once again given as a specific command for the situation in the passage. It does not apply here, nor does it apply to calm, rational debates between Christian denominations.


When I see Christians engaging in all this religious one-upmanship and self righteous condemnation of other ways of understanding God it is hard not to see a direct parallel to the manner in which the Pharisees smugly proclaimed the fruits of Holy Spirit that dwelled in Jesus to be the works of Satan (Matthew 12).

When questioned about it, the Christians who engage in all this "puffing themselves up" (1 Corinthians 8:1-2) and "self exaltation" (Luke 14:11), typically justify it by claiming that they are only trying to save your eternal soul. Perhaps those offending individuals should forego their own egos and instead defer to their Scripture and consider what Jesus had to say about it all, and recognize that maybe it would be more appropriate to worry that it is your own soul that is facing eternal damnation.


Firefigher: *Breaks down door*

Homeowner: WHAT ARE YOU DOING??? You have done damage to the property!

Firefighter: Don't you see the fire? Your son is trapped, and I am going to rescue him. I have done nothing immoral.

Homeowner: WhY ArE yOU bOaStINg?!?!?!


Such is the conversation at hand.


Furthermore, from Jeremiah 9:23-24:


23 This is what the Lord says:

“Let not the wise boast of their wisdom

    or the strong boast of their strength

    or the rich boast of their riches,

24 but let the one who boasts boast about this:

    that they have the understanding to know me,

that I am the Lord, who exercises kindness,

    justice and righteousness on earth,

    for in these I delight,”

declares the Lord.


If saying that you are saving someone's soul is boast, then it is a boast in Christ, where the Christian acknowledges that, on a deeper level, God is saving souls through him, not on his own. Knowing RationalMadman/GreatfulGoy here, I would say that it is a given. He is not perfect, but in my conversations with him, I would say he knows that he is nothing special; that he is merely an instrument of God's.


Romans 2:1-2
Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

Once again, this verse does not tell Christians not to repeat God's judgment. It is a warning against hypocrisy. See my earlier points on Matthew 7; they apply here.


As for what you wrote in Post #10:


If it were the case that God simply gave Jews and Muslims another understanding, sufficient for salvation, the book of Hebrews (a book written to convert Jews to Christianity) would be pointless. And taking your assertion to its logical conclusion, who would be to say that the Hellenists, and Baalists/etc of the Old Testament, were also not given another understanding, and that they would be saved? If we understand that, then such ministry to them would also be pointless. Yet God Himself had Elijah (1 Kings 18:16-45) and Paul (Acts 16:16-18) demonstrate signs to them, to show that they are true of prophets of the one true God.


As such, you cannot assert that such ministry to Muslims, including the condemnation of their faith and the assurance of salvation in Christ alone, is sinful, or boastful, or anything of the sort.


Finally: You, like the Muslims, are in jeopardy, but are not irredeemable. But that is a topic for another day.

Mag1cman

Wow. The dishonesty in your rhetoric has reached an all-time high. I will be back to destroy your argument tomorrow.


But the fact that you can say this...

 this is yet another attempt by you to muddy the waters so that nothing Trump could ever do would be a problem for you. Under this framing, what’s “wise” is whatever the dear leader says it is, because he’s the one we elected to tell us so.

and not even think twice about it is absurd.


I have critiqued Trump multiple times in this thread. You've seen those times, and you ignore them. You're so hell bent on proving I am a Trump cultist that you intentionally lie about me. Shame on you.

Mag1cman

Sidewalker, I will get into the details of your argument tomorrow, but for now, your entire assertion is destroyed by John 3:18:


"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son."


You must accept and proclaim Jesus to get into Heaven. Period. To assert otherwise, you will have to partake in a great effort to cite the Word while ignoring the context, as you have done.


I will be coming to Greatfulgoy/Rationalmadman's defense in this argument.


If proven wrong, I will accept it.

Mag1cman
You forgot that the Republicans in your country regard biological women as more deserving of women's rights than trans women.


Yeah there's another reason to vote red over blue.

Mag1cman

Good news for you, I guess.


Saying this because I don’t think the tariffs will work. He’s using them in a different way, as a hardball tactic to get countries to sign deals with the US. Some have, and he’s made some progress on the ones that won’t.


But as a whole, Europe and Canada would rather tank their economies if it means tanking the US economy while giving Trump the middle finger.


He’s gotta give it up at this point, and he probably won’t.

Mag1cman
The president does not appoint Supremes, they are nominated, only. It is the Senate which makes the appointments. Blame them for the alleged stupidities of appointments,

This argument sucks if you're trying to defend the president(s) from the blame for a bad apple on the bench.


Anyway, it's really funny to see the leftoids who will scream to the sky about how Trump is destroying our democracy... and then advocate for packing the courts.

Mag1cman

Imagine typing all that in one neat post, just to forget to ping the guy.


D'oh!

Mag1cman
The point wasn’t that Trump passed an enabling act of his own, the point is the fact that Trump was elected democratically doesn’t make his actions democratic.


Which I conceded... however, the logical question to ask from there is, "has he done such a thing?" And the answer is no.


But you do have other arguments, surrounding "undemocratic behavior":


But I think I've given you too much already... so allow me to rectify that: It's subtle, but we are not a complete democracy; we are a democratic republic. The distinction is that we are built so that, in times when the masses are wrong, the representatives and other elected officials do what is wise.


Is this good in practice? No, not really. But it is superior to pure democracy. Both really aren't that great. Universal suffrage has not helped; if you're going to aggress on others with a vote, it would've been wiser to ensure said voters are the best of the best.


I digress. Anyway, this is relevant because you need to keep in mind that we voted him in, knowing we wouldn't like or agree with everything he did. The point of this is not to justify, but rather to note that our democratic-republic is not going to die because of Trump.


Examples of anti democratic things he has done include staffing the government with loyalists over public servants

We knew he was going to elect a different cabinet and that he was going to restaff the government. It was obvious when you consider how many people he hired and fired during his first term, and he campaigned on some of the things he is doing here. And while Project 2025 was not his official policy, overlap was to be expected, given that many of the people behind it had worked under Trump at some point.


Question: If you are a president, why hire/appoint "public servants" who won't easily go along with your policies? Why keep them on your staff? If you want to do your job as efficiently as possible, you will want your subordinates to be loyal. You can call them Trump psychophants, but they do make for greater efficiency, as far as policy is concerned.


I have no problem with this, nor would I have had a problem if Biden had done it. The bigger question is "what are the policies in question?"


passing executive orders that blatantly violate the constitution,

Curious about your examples.


Anyway, here is an example of him doing something that every president with executive orders has done. Thankfully, the courts are a good check, although, as we've previously discussed, things could be better.


violating due process rights for undocumented immigrants,

Citation needed. Let's just say I have a feeling about these claims. I am open-minded. It is possible the few deportations that were claimed to be hasty really were.


overtly weaponizing the DOJ and FCC

The DOJ usage is a clapback for the bogus case(s) that the intelligence community c.2017-2019 came at him with. I have no problem with charges against the Spygate perps.


As for the usage of the FCC to pull the plug on Jimmy Kimmel's show, this is a place where I will join you in condemning Trump. While I wish Kimmel had been pulled off the air long ago, the specific way it happened is something I will never approve of. I will ask, however: Do you condemn the Biden administration for pressuring Twitter and Facebook to censor conservative viewpoints? This is another example of something that no president should have the ability to do. I would love for FCC and all related bureaucracy to be canned, with all necessary functions being privatized.


, using the power of the state to punish those that do not abide by him including threats to blue states for supporting democrats, etc.


Again, citation needed.


Every system is vulnerable so long as there is a person at the top of it, and I hate to tell you, but we haven’t figured out how to not have systems run by people.

Ensuring the right people are in charge is and will always be central to whether any country remains a legitimate democracy, that’s not avoidable.

We have, however, figured out that decentralized authority is harder to abuse and that a more limited government will cause less damage when abused. We've known this since our country's founding. Our government is involved in many corners of American life that the founders would not have dared touch. Like I said, privatization, and amendments protecting privatization + limiting govt even further would be beneficial.


Probably randos on Twitter. Regardless, no serious person would make this claim. Almost certainly, if you’ve heard anyone say it they were being hyperbolic or describing his mentality, not literally saying the US is a dictatorship.

The def weren't hyperbolic, but sure, I'll drop this since you aren't of the group that makes the claim.


Typical MAGA intellectual dishonesty. No one is claiming “personnel changes” makes a dictatorship.

I noted that you were claiming it makes for an ATTEMPT at one...


The point of highlighting the personnel decisions he has made is to demonstrate that this isn’t a man who cares about serving the people who elected him, otherwise he would install people who know how to do that. Instead he’s installing people whose sole qualification is that they’re a Trump sycophant. That is just one of the many things Trump has done that we’ve seen in authoritarian regimes many times before.


...and here you double down on it. Rewording your argument doesn't change it. At the end of the day, the argument is that Trump's personnel changes indicate he is trying to form a dictatorship. I refuted this above.


It’s all you’re going to get because it’s all you want. you like to do what every MAGA cultist does; you compartmentalize everything he does so that you can claim each thing fails on its own to prove the point, then dismiss them all claiming there’s no evidence of it. That’s brazenly dishonest, logic doesn’t work that way. The way you prove a case is by laying out the dots and then connecting them. The connecting is not something I can do for you.

Gee, the bar for "MAGA cultist" sure seems low...


A case... lol. The problem here is that we're not dealing with murder; we're dealing with what is, at best, speculation into his mind. You are not a mind reader. Even all of these, in totality, do not prove a thing, because the fact that he can do all of these without dismantling the system remains. Presidents on both sides have done everything you have alleged, without dismantling the system. The only exception I can see being the government restaffing... which still fails to prove your point, given that there is a good reason to do so.


And at worst?


"Laying out the dots"... If no pillar is strong enough to stand on its own, how can they hold a roof? They can't. You're asking me to accept the validity of arguments based on the number of them. You don't even realize you're arguing in favor of what is essentially Gish gallop. And then you have the gall to call me intellectually dishonest... (seriously, what in the Innuendo Studios is this bullshit? This sounds like an argument he'd make.)


What's the point of everything I have said? If there's one takeaway from this argument, what should it be?


Your most reasonable argument against Trump here is that all presidents (and other politicians!), while not dictators, are closer to being a dictator than they should be. This is an argument from a higher level of understanding that says the system is being dismantled slowly by our politicians, including the presidents, using what was granted by the system itself... one that I have and you don't, since you have too much faith in the current system. So you can't even make this argument without contradicting your viewpoint, because the natural solution is to change the system in a way that severely kneecaps the government's authority by privatizing and decentralizing power, which you mostly oppose.


We should not grant the power to the government that it currently has, and democracy in America is a god that has failed. However, if we must have our current system, it comes with the reality of battles over who wields it, and the reasonable person will (and just did) pick the president who violates fewer liberties.


If my choice is between:

-The Democratic Party, which wants greater censorship, greater firearm restrictions, the subsidizing of ESG firms that sustain woke ideology, wealth redistribution, greater taxation, and the unrestricted migration that enables said party by vote.

-The Republican Party, which opposes the Democrats somewhat (but not really enough, since they engage in some of the faults of the Democratic Party to a lesser extent), slaps ridiculous tariffs on stuff, and maybe deports some immigrants before they should.


My choice is always going to be the Republican Party, until the Libertarian Party gets its shit together.

Mag1cman

Yup. And they still want us to follow the ways of Britain.


But Britain can take their woke garbage, their endless migration, their censorship, and shove it all up their asses.


I wonder if the modern tories would still be tories if they lived in Britain. Probably. By living in Britain, you get a 30% decrease in testosterone. Some Brits are so scared of their government, that they change their beliefs, even in the most secluded of spaces.

Mag1cman

So the man who traded away Luka Doncic was fired. He also traded away Kristaps Porzingis, Cason Wallace, Jalen Brunson(?!?!), and Quentin Grimes... all to build a roster with Anthony "Day-to-Davis" and Klay Thompson, who only wanted to join the Mavericks because of Doncic. Kyrie Irving also hasn't lived up to expectations. Cooper Flagg is good to have, I guess; it's not like Harrison did anything special there, though.


Not only do I think the Mavs made the 2024 Finals despite him, but I think he is one of the worst GMs of all time.


What do you think? Discuss.

Mag1cman
But sure, I'll give that if a president somehow convinces the Senate and Court to pass and uphold an enabling act of some kind, he could be declared dictator.

*congress and senate

Mag1cman

K bye.


Next thread, I want to see you understand the difference between a state, and a person living in said state (and apply the newfound knowledge to your thread). It’s become relevant again and you’re 0-2.

Mag1cman
So you didn't bother to Google it, noted.

The Enabling Act was the law Hitler was able to get passed that allowed him to take the powers he would then use to dismantle Germany's democracy, thereby paving the way for the holocaust.

The point was in direct refutation of your implied claim that because a president was elected and is doing what he said he would do that everything he does is definitionally democratic. That's just silly and contradicts the fundamental purpose of having a constitution.


I did Google it and I got your point.


Again, what are Trump's enabling acts? Is there anything you can point to that says Trump has an enabling act of some kind in place? Anything that currently exists is something other presidents have had access to, which is why I went into that subject.


But sure, I'll give that if a president somehow convinces the Senate and Court to pass and uphold an enabling act of some kind, he could be declared dictator.


In some cases absolutely. I would love to see a constitutional amendment formally establishing the independence of the DOJ for example. It's absurd that the only thing stopping president's from directly interfering in criminal prosecutions and weaponizing the DOJ against anyone who crosses him is how's own personal restraint.

Seems reasonable.


I'm not sure how many other measures I would take though, this is the problem; Presidents have to be able to act when necessary, but granting that authority to the wrong person opens the system up to flagrant abuse and the endangerment of our entire system of constitutional governance. This is why it matters who we put in that position, but unfortunately Americans demonstrated in 2024 that we're just not smart enough to make that choice. At the end of the day, we get the government we deserve.

If electing the wrong person can ruin the system, the system was in shambles long before the wrong person was elected. I'll admit I'm a little fuzzy on the details as well, but there's gotta be something more. I thionk greater restrictions via constitutional amendments on the authority of the government over the economy and private property would be good.


Outside of that, I'd love to privatize healthcare, education, and probably a few more things as well.


No one is claiming Trump *is* a dictator, we're saying he is a clear authoritarian who wants to be a dictator. And we're saying it because it's beyond obvious.

I've seen multiple people claim he is, but sure, if this is what you claim, we'll roll with it:


I can claim? Are you seriously going to sit here and pretend Trump 2.0 is no different than Trump 1.0? A Fox News weekend host to be secretary of defense, a notorious vaccine conspiracy theorist to lead HHS, a couple of podcasters to run the FBI... Really?


Some personnel changes from the first term don't make for an attempt at a dictatorship. Even the policy changes that would correspond with the new personnel wouldn't prove he's a dictator in the making. I was looking to hear that Trump was in the process of getting his enabling act in place, and all I got was this. His favorite tie changed from what it was in 2017; he's clearly a different person who's become ready to start a dictatorship.