Look, shifting the burden from "I am undeniably conformed" to "is it possible" is the issue here. You have to recognize that right?
Look, shifting the burden from "I am undeniably conformed" to "is it possible" is the issue here. You have to recognize that right?
You are missing a HUGE thing here. You are placing the burden on the counter claim being confirmation while Pie's entire thing was "I am 100% confirmed and if not I will even vote myself"
what reason is there for no one to expose the lie if u think he is lying?
The burden is not on others to confirm that they are confirmed town. Its on them. Shifting this burden to say "Well its possible" is nonsense.
it seems like pretty clear confrmation to say you are a guild leader when the mod said there is two confirmed town members and they are both guild members, and no one is counter claiming that.
So to find common ground-
Do you not think he lied when he demanded that he needed Rex full role claim then demanded knowing if Rex had given information of who they would target as absolutely necessary for their defense? They took up half a day stalling the game and now revealed a guild owner claim.
How is this not just an absolute lie?
Look, shifting the burden from "I am undeniably conformed" to "is it possible" is the issue here. You have to recognize that right?
becuse there isnt a universe where it makes sense for pie to lie here, and if he is lying we will know soon enough. again unless u just dont think there is no other ppl in that guild.
Just really think about this. If Rex told people in their guild what they were going to do was a HUGE issue Pie made a stupid level of issue. For fucking what? Why?
So to find common ground-
Do you not think he lied when he demanded that he needed Rex full role claim then demanded knowing if Rex had given information of who they would target as absolutely necessary for their defense? They took up half a day stalling the game and now revealed a guild owner claim.
How is this not just an absolute lie?
let me ask u it this way. u know for a fact u r town, and someone is claiming a result on u. u, knowing ur town, automtically know the results are wrong or the person with the results are lying with the second being less likely. pie has the added benefit of being able to confirm himself. wut do you do in this situation?
Just really think about this. If Rex told people in their guild what they were going to do was a HUGE issue Pie made a stupid level of issue. For fucking what? Why?
huh?
Well what I do not do is lie to the community and make demands that have nothing to do with anything followed by voicing that the person with a check on me is probably not lying and then turn around and say they should be lynched. Thats for sure.
What would I do? Probably just explain myself and not hold the entire day chat hostage for 12 hours while making demands of information that do not relate to anything at all.
Think about it, Why would Pie make things so stupid and dig in so hard demanding information and declaring it as necessary to prove their innocence if it had zero bearing on if they were or were not innocent?
Town literally lost the majority of a day over their bullshit there
Well what I do not do is lie to the community and make demands that have nothing to do with anything followed by voicing that the person with a check on me is probably not lying and then turn around and say they should be lynched. Thats for sure.
i dont see where a lie happened.
What would I do? Probably just explain myself and not hold the entire day chat hostage for 12 hours while making demands of information that do not relate to anything at all.
i was hoping for a good faith answer here, but it doesnt look like ill get one. if u have ur mind made up thats fine.
Think about it, Why would Pie make things so stupid and dig in so hard demanding information and declaring it as necessary to prove their innocence if it had zero bearing on if they were or were not innocent?
i am rapidly losing interest in arguing against cirulr logic here. sorry i just dont have the mental capacity for it. it doesnt seem like this is going anywhere
Ok. So you think I am not giving an answer in good faith.
Walk me through how you see Pie locking up the day phase demanding they need to get an answer out of Rex before revealing what confirms them.
Explain to me how what they were demanding had any meaning in any way as they killed half a day for the entire town refusing to just claim.
I am very open to understanding your view. I just do not see how there could possibly be a conclusion other than "They lied"
Why they lied? Could be debated. 'if' they lied? Not so much imo.
Ok. So you think I am not giving an answer in good faith.
i can tell u feel passionately about this, but u seem to be incapable of understanding or trying to understand the other side.
Walk me through how you see Pie locking up the day phase demanding they need to get an answer out of Rex before revealing what confirms them.
he was always going to need a good reason for doing it. being confirmed town is a pretty good reason. now we have that reason and know why he did it, and we have rex on the other side of the coin doin the same thing, but u r not holding him accountable for it.
Explain to me how what they were demanding had any meaning in any way as they killed half a day for the entire town refusing to just claim.
if your going to ask or repeat the same points ill just refer u to the posts where i already answered them. in this case, post 636.
this is giving me a head ache. im taking a tylenol and going to bed. ill be back on tomorrow. gn
Ok. You are totally avoiding my points and not acknowledging what I am saying.
Moving past that can I hear you out better and understand what you are saying? I am not getting your point other than you disagree and excuse their behavior.
I am very willing to hear out what you have to say and I am not sure why we are having so much trouble connecting right now. But regardless I am open to hearing your perspective on the situation.
Well I would get a head ache too trying to justify the bullshit Pie pulled. Is what it is I guess. Take care.
Well TLDR as I see it
Did Pie lie about the information they needed to confirm themselves? Absolutely 100% yes. They locked up the day demanding info that had zero bearing on them clearing themselves. Their entire rambling about needing confirmation if Rex whatever was just an utter lie. Nobody can deny this.
Is Pie a guild leader? Maybe. If they are they are confirmed. Are they confirmed? No, not in the slightest. Town acting like they are confirmed is just stupid imo.
Pie pushing to lynch Rex? Thats scummy as fuck. They declared they believe Rex was not scum and now pressure them to reveal information or die because...? Sounds scummy as hell to me. You do not town read a slot then advocate to kill them when they do not do what you want.
Take that for what it is.
what reason is there for no one to expose the lie if u think he is lying?
To save his ass. I slept on this and I'm ready to work with town, but Pie walked back a crucial step to proving himself.
This is what Pie claimed happened with his guild:
NP0: Pie is guild leader, recruits Wylted and Luna. Only Wylted joins. 2 members.
NP1: Recruits unknown player. They accept. 3 members.
NP2: Recruits unknown player. They accept. 4 members.
DPs: Wylted dies. 3 members.
That 100% could have happened, and in this case TWO other players could vouch for pie and actually confirm him as town. However, now Pie is saying he's not going to take that final step to confirm himself.
This also could have happened:
NP0: Wylted recruits ScumPie and Luna. Only the ScumPie recruit goes through. 1T/1S
NP1: Wylted recruits another player, they accept. This player could be ScumPie's scum partner, who Pie pushed Wylted to recruit. 1T/2S
NP2: They waive recruit to use their roles. 1/2S
DP2: Wylted dies. Possibly, ScumPie manipulated him to do so. At this point, the guild is composed entirely of the remaining scum team (two players). No one remains to counter Pie's claim that he was the guild leader all along.
The player they attempted to recruit also could have rejected the offer. They could have failed to recruit anyone at all, or given up on recruiting more because they were one player behind.
The only way to disprove Pie in this situation is for TWO guild members to come forward, as we know there are only two scum left so it couldn't possibly be a gambit to save Pie's ass.
Once he takes this final step and actually confirms myself, I'm willing to work with him, up to the point of dissolving my guild entirely. Waiting for some answers from Mikal while I investigate things internally, but I do want to say one thing because it seems to be the working assumption among some people: Shining is NOT in my guild.
But Luna is a guild leader? How could he have recruited him? He claimed that DP1
Kick logic to the curb and do the impossible!
These guilds function as town factions, but they are also competing.
Kick logic to the curb and do the impossible!
This is also just faction on faction fighting and they’re trying to manipulate town at this point
Kick logic to the curb and do the impossible!
Alright, waking up to a lot of back and forth about what Pie’s plan was here and whether he lied, so I’ll just go through your TLDR which seems to encompass the major points.
Did Pie lie about the information they needed to confirm themselves? Absolutely 100% yes. They locked up the day demanding info that had zero bearing on them clearing themselves. Their entire rambling about needing confirmation if Rex whatever was just an utter lie. Nobody can deny this.
I don’t recall Pie saying that he would be cleared based on Rex’s claim. He was pushing for Rex’s claim because he was confident he could town confirm himself by demonstrating that he’s the Guild Leader. When you’re that sure you are mod confirmed town and someone just got an erroneous result on you, the focus becomes on the how of it. Pie wanted to confirm Rex was town and, knowing that, how his result could have been altered. Someone either knew Rex’s target (a Guild member) to Frame him or knew his role and Redirected him to make it look like his target was scum (still likely a Guild member).
Is Pie a guild leader? Maybe. If they are they are confirmed. Are they confirmed? No, not in the slightest. Town acting like they are confirmed is just stupid imo.
So Wylted flips tomorrow. He’s the claimed Guild Leader. Pie’s dead automatically if his flip confirms as much. Also, we have good reason to believe there are two other people in this game who are still in that Guild. That would make three players between them and Pie who would have to be scheming as scum to make up this lie, since the other two could just out him now and we’d lynch him immediately. So yes, I’d say he’s as close to confirmed town as it’s possible to be.
Pie pushing to lynch Rex? Thats scummy as fuck. They declared they believe Rex was not scum and now pressure them to reveal information or die because...? Sounds scummy as hell to me. You do not town read a slot then advocate to kill them when they do not do what you want.
Likely frustration. Pie’s confirmed himself, Rex is being intransigent and refusing to help by providing evidence only he and one other unknown person knows that could lead to scum. Pie would rather get the information, but Rex is still here posing a trade.
So here we are with an almost certain TvT stand-off. You can keep asserting that none of this makes sense, but it’s all pretty clear to me.
The only way to disprove Pie in this situation is for TWO guild members to come forward, as we know there are only two scum left so it couldn't possibly be a gambit to save Pie's ass.
Once he takes this final step and actually confirms myself, I'm willing to work with him, up to the point of dissolving my guild entirely. Waiting for some answers from Mikal while I investigate things internally, but I do want to say one thing because it seems to be the working assumption among some people: Shining is NOT in my guild.
Dude, you are making this absurdly difficult. If Pie has incentive to run this train with two players in the game who can deny he’s the Guild Leader, I don’t see it. If he has incentive to do it with a coming Wylted flip that will confirm whether he was actually the Guild Leader, I don’t see it. He’s as close to confirmed town as you can get without two people outing themselves to give him a blaring green light that he does not need. Meanwhile, you are sitting on pertinent information that could help significantly with scum hunting since someone clearly messed with your role and you may well have told the members of your Guild your plans. Why are you withholding even at this point?
Fair points.
While I do not even slightly understand why Pie would dig in and waste half a day for everyone harping on "Well did you tell your guild mates" or demand full role claims from a player they town read its possible it was not to the end of clearing themselves. While it looks like very poor play its not necessarily scummy.
Wylted flips tomorrow. So there is no reason to assume pie would lie there. Self resolving situation.
Vote: Unvote
Vote: Shining
Duno what happened to pushing the awful obvious fake claim but I feel its where I should be.
Vote Count:
Awesome5000 (1/7): Shining
Pie (1/7): Rex
Rex (4/7) Kohai, Mag1c, Pie, Bananna