Periodic Table of Elements Mafia DP6

Thoth wrote:

So explain to me how this makes you more town to me now.

I was serving up whoppers with the intention of using Soldier. Yes, I lied my ass off repeatedly, but you can see in hindsight that it was all to maximize the possibility that my role could win the game.

If this is the kind of strategy you use to maximize your odds, then I'd hate to see what you'd do to make them worse. You're blatantly admitting to lying about multiple elements of your claim, none of which would have increased your odds of survival that I can see. If you are the Soldier, scum had nothing to fear from you before this DP, so they absolutely would have just let you live. So I'll ask the obvious question:

Why do you think scum let a claimed Soldier survive into the final 3? They're the only ones who would have absolute certainty you were town and therefore likely telling the truth.

Automated Vote Count

This vote count was generated by the mafia vote bot.

Shining (1/2): Thoth (p#53)

Thoth (1/2): Shining (p#44)

Not Voting (1): whiteflame

With 3 players alive, it takes 2 to lynch. Day phase ends in 1 day, 7 hours.

Sure...

So I spent some time earlier working on ISOs for both of you. I found reason to sus each of you for different reasons, but lo and behold, Thoth has given me more to talk about... none of it good for him, but hey, it's something. Here come those ISOs:

Thoth –

1. Claim:
2. Reminiscent of previous games (e.g. Soldier, DP4 activation)
3. Nevermind. Thoth lied about the DP4 reveal and the connection to the DP4 Innocent Child
4. Delayed timing doesn’t look great
5. Given that we know scum had two questions about characters and roles, and given that Mikal claimed Cobalt and Helz claimed Nitrogen, there’s a more than decent chance the third scum claimed without a question
6. Initially townread the claim of Oganesson because it was so out there and so early in the game, also came with a justification of it not being well understood yet
7. Nevermind. The justification has just come down to “it’s the heaviest, therefore Soldier,” which seems baffling
8. Behavior:
9. ISO:
10. DP2: Gave some basic reads on Rex (town), Luna (unsure) and Casey (scum) before pushing the Casey lynch, partially on the supposition that the “minor difference” in Casey’s role would be an out for them in case they were visited. Similar logic for lynching Casey to Mikal.
11. DP3: Starts chat with Helz, says he’s incontrovertibly town. Starts to sus Bullish behaviorally, considers Mikal as “a reasonable choice out of the three”, but then selects Casey and stays there.
12. DP4: Stalls on the claim, publicly wonders if he’s too solidly townreading Helz, gets defensive of Helz’s claim and strawmans my argument for why their lynch should be on the table.
13. DP5: Claims Soldier, spends a lot of the DP evading or holding off answering questions about what was communicated between him and Helz in chat, giving sometimes contradictory answers (“Helz told me that he was 2x Rolestoppper” vs. “He did not use the term Rolestopper in our chat” vs. “I did ask him if he was the Rolestopper and he confirmed that he thought that is what his role is normally called on here”), stating the role “Vaporizer” for the first time publicly, and giving weak reasons for townreading Helz.
14. DP6: Immediately defensive and points out the oddity of him being left alive despite being the Soldier. Bases his early sus on me in large part on his newfound mistrust of Helz before just VTLing me. Took his time explaining his actual read, but basically just blanket null reads Shining because apparently he hasn’t posted enough to get any reads (not accurate)
15. When pressed, stated that he’d known all along he was the Soldier and that both support for his claim and much of his justification were faked.
16. Helz/Thoth-specific Thoughts:
17. Do I believe that he’d continue to solidly defend Helz even when it became clear that Helz was the consensus lynch?
18. Do I believe that Helz would continue to insist his own partner is solid town when Helz had become the consensus lynch?
19. The explanation remains baffling. Too much confidence in his bluff yielding accurate results, too much certainty that Helz was town.
20. And yeah, I’m going to sus what looks like a scum slip when Thoth literally was the first to use the term “Vaporizer” as a role claim publicly. I can’t verify that Helz used it that way in chat with him, and even if he did, the decision not to look it up after Helz said it that specific way is beyond me.

Points in favor of Thoth as town:

1. Sheer obviousness. Going so far out of his way to defend Helz and back up everything he said publicly, then having Helz exclude him from the scum pool. Both of them would have to be absurdly blatant about buddying each other.

Points in favor of Thoth as scum

1. Literally everything else. Thoth backtracking on his claim makes no sense, nor do any of the blatant lies associated with doing it. I can't fathom any town player taking these actions, much less declaring that they had in the final DP. The lack of consistency in his posts throughout the game, but particularly in DP5, is baffling. Defending Helz so thoroughly comes back around to looking sus given how much of that rode entirely on the belief that Thoth thought he actively fooled Helz into believing he had a crazy role no one would believe.

Shining –

1. Claim:
2. Looks pretty basic. Uranium to Bomb is such an obvious 1 to 1 that I’m wondering if this is another “Cobalt is Magnet” situation.
3. Closest he gets to a softclaim is stating that his justification “at least draws from the chemistry”
4. Late claim doesn’t help his case. Shining was one of the last to claim.
5. Mechanically:
6. Can’t ignore that Bullish didn’t see any movement from him NP4
7. Also can’t ignore that no one has been Vanillaized since NP2, so it’s possible he just doesn’t have any more night actions
8. Harder still to ignore the results of NP1 actions
9. I know I was Redirected by Mikal to Shining
10. Would scum Redirect me to other scum?
11. I know either Shining or I were Vanillaized
12. Would scum Redirect and Vanillaize me on the off-chance that OoO let me get a night action off?
13. Or would they use the night action and evidence that I had visited a target who was Vanillaized (Shining) as a basis for pushing me?
14. This is the strongest point in Shining’s favor
15. Behavior:
16. ISO:
17. DP2: Sussed Luna after the Mago mislynch that he joined
18. Most insight I saw him give all game into a player’s behavior
19. DP3: Sussed Casey, me and Rex before just hopping on the Casey wagon late in the DP
20. DP4: Claimed relatively early in the DP before sussing Mikal and giving light, evasive reads on Thoth and Bullish
21. DP5: Puts attention on Helz out the gate, which is where his attention stays throughout the DP apart from telling me he’d ISO me
22. DP6: Once again says he’d ISO us and then just kind of not doing that, spent most of this DP so far parroting thoughts

Points in favor of Shining as town:

1. Mainly mechanical. I don't see a world in which scum decided to Vanillaize me and Redirect me to Shining. It's such a baffling move that I can't say I buy it. Mikal also seemed initially perplexed that I had been Vanillaized in chat, and now I think I understand why. Shining also gets some credit for pushing the right lynches, though he's pretty good at bussing from my experience, so that doesn't say much.

Points in favor of Shining as scum:

1. Lack of much in the way of material to behaviorally read and the obviousness of his claim. I want to put the former in NAI but there's so little to read into that it's hard not to scumread the aversion to providing more analysis, at least a little. The "Uranium is Bomb" claim is not great, either, as it looks most akin to Mikal's claim out of all the ones we've seen so far.

I'm going to give time for each of you to at least look this over and respond to it just so that I don't feel like I'm writing solely for myself and because Thoth had asked for an ISO to respond to. Here you are. My inclination right now is that Thoth is scum, but hey, you might surprise me with your responses.

Ugh, it transformed all the bullet points into numbers. Oh well, looked good on my screen. I'm done for now, likely for much of the evening as I'm going to Shabbat services tonight, so you have plenty of time to go over this and respond if you wish. Regardless, this ends tonight.

Automated Vote Count

This vote count was generated by the mafia vote bot.

Shining (1/2): Thoth (p#53)

Thoth (1/2): Shining (p#44)

Not Voting (1): whiteflame

With 3 players alive, it takes 2 to lynch. Day phase ends in 1 day, 5 hours.

Ignore the timer. Approximately 24 hours remaining

Well, I’m back and I don’t see anything new. Decision gets made tonight, so if you two have any responses to the above or additional reasons I should townread you, you’re running out of time.

Am at trivia night atm, will respond when at home

Again, sorry for the late response. Third shifter lol. Its difficult for me to keep up with games. It would be different if I had another night owl to bounce off with, but its honestly frustrating to wake up to potentially pages of content that may or may not be fluff, especially if you are behind in ISOs. I admit I probably could have played my role better, but at the same time I felt like if I changed my behavior too much that would tip off mafia, so sorry there mate. Lunatic was scummy bro. He basically went "dude just trust me" and led a mislynch for basically no reason. Thats a scummy thing to do. I also wouldn't put it pass Thoth to gambit claiming Ogannsium and claiming the town cred while he can freely claim whatever benefits scum. Could be why he dragged his feet full claiming. His interactions with Helz is also bizarre from a town perspective because Helz basically admitted he was scum and shitposted for the second half of DP5 and Thoth seemingly didn't care. And if that wasn't enough, again, Vaporizer slip. As for you, with Rex flipping town, there is no reason for you to lie about being vanilliaized. If nothing else, thats some town cred for you.

Automated Vote Count

This vote count was generated by the mafia vote bot.

Shining (1/2): Thoth (p#53)

Thoth (1/2): Shining (p#44)

Not Voting (1): whiteflame

With 3 players alive, it takes 2 to lynch. Day phase ends in 1 day, 1 hour.

Shining wrote:

Again, sorry for the late response. Third shifter lol. Its difficult for me to keep up with games. It would be different if I had another night owl to bounce off with, but its honestly frustrating to wake up to potentially pages of content that may or may not be fluff, especially if you are behind in ISOs. I admit I probably could have played my role better, but at the same time I felt like if I changed my behavior too much that would tip off mafia, so sorry there mate. Lunatic was scummy bro. He basically went "dude just trust me" and led a mislynch for basically no reason. Thats a scummy thing to do. I also wouldn't put it pass Thoth to gambit claiming Ogannsium and claiming the town cred while he can freely claim whatever benefits scum. Could be why he dragged his feet full claiming. His interactions with Helz is also bizarre from a town perspective because Helz basically admitted he was scum and shitposted for the second half of DP5 and Thoth seemingly didn't care. And if that wasn't enough, again, Vaporizer slip. As for you, with Rex flipping town, there is no reason for you to lie about being vanilliaized. If nothing else, thats some town cred for you.

Alright, that's something at least. I can't say I have a problem with sussing Luna at the time you were, though it didn't have anything to do with the mislynch. His claim was just off, though as soon as he claimed his justification (which was also the moment he ensured he'd be modkilled), that changed. Basically agree with your thoughts on Thoth.

As for the read on me, at this point, it seems entirely unnecessary. If I was scum, Thoth would have been lynched the moment you posted a vote on him and I'd be celebrating.

Thoth wrote:

Am at trivia night atm, will respond when at home

It's 11:30 PM here and I'm tired. My vote goes up tonight and I'm not waiting past midnight. I tagged you asking for your thoughts 7 hours ago.

Nevermind. The justification has just come down to “it’s the heaviest, therefore Soldier,” which seems baffling

Oganesson outweighs the last scum because it's the heaviest element. How is that baffling?

I'd also like to bring up the Connor/Luna fiasco from day 1. If this gets me modkilled, so be it, I might be about to die before Pie gets on. You'd have to believe I tied myself to both of my scum partners super aggressively while setting up the hidden-role claim that only pays off if I make it to the end.

DP5: Claims Soldier, spends a lot of the DP evading or holding off answering questions about what was communicated between him and Helz in chat, giving sometimes contradictory answers (“Helz told me that he was 2x Rolestoppper” vs. “He did not use the term Rolestopper in our chat” vs. “I did ask him if he was the Rolestopper and he confirmed that he thought that is what his role is normally called on here”), stating the role “Vaporizer” for the first time publicly, and giving weak reasons for townreading Helz.

I don't believe that I ever gave contradictory answers. If it sounded like I did, I think I've clarified it. Again: Helz claimed something that sounded like Rolestopper; I suggested that's what his role was; he agreed but said that it wasn't called Rolestopper, and instead suggested Vaporizer without claiming that was his role's official name.

Disregarding the fact that U is for Uranium... Bombs!, how do you justify going from this:

Uranium to Bomb is such an obvious 1 to 1 that I’m wondering if this is another “Cobalt is Magnet” situation.

To this:

The "Uranium is Bomb" claim is not great, either, as it looks most akin to Mikal's claim out of all the ones we've seen so far.

I'm not sure what you're saying. Are you sussing the claim because the justification is too clean?

Despite seemingly tying myself to Helz later, can I get some towncred for being the only person voting him at the end of day 1?

basically just blanket null reads Shining because apparently he hasn’t posted enough to get any reads (not accurate)

I'm not saying that Shining has posted nothing, just that there wasn't nearly as much to work from there as with some other players.

the decision not to look it up after Helz said it that specific way is beyond me.

Again, I had no reason to think it was the role's official name. I figured that Helz's justification said something like, "you have role X because you vaporize things", and that was Helz's nickname for his role.

If Mikal and Helz were in scum chat with me, do you think they would let me change my story like this and not provide me with a fake claim yesterday before I claimed Soldier today?

They would probably be raging at me right now

Cool, responses at last.

Thoth wrote:

Nevermind. The justification has just come down to “it’s the heaviest, therefore Soldier,” which seems baffling

Oganesson outweighs the last scum because it's the heaviest element. How is that baffling?

Because it is by far the weakest logic out of all of them. Read back through all the flips we have, scum and town. None of them just say "it has this generalized property, thus you are _____." They all point to specific roles these elements play in different environments, behavioral patterns, discovery conditions, chemical bonds, and nuclear physics. Even Shining's role directly relates to Uranium's use in bombs. How does yours comport with any of those? For that matter, "heaviest" is just a weird delineation when it comes to elements. It's the heaviest by atomic mass, but it's not the densest. That would be Osmium. Why is heaviest the measure Pie would select and not density? Why not point to literally anything any element has over all over elements on the Periodic Table and use that as a basis for the Soldier? It's weird, man.

I'd also like to bring up the Connor/Luna fiasco from day 1. If this gets me modkilled, so be it, I might be about to die before Pie gets on. You'd have to believe I tied myself to both of my scum partners super aggressively while setting up the hidden-role claim that only pays off if I make it to the end.

Why are you talking about getting modkilled now? You're talking about in-game choices you made... all the way back in DP1, as though that somehow defends you against anything I said. And no, I don't believe you tied yourself to Mikal in any way. Where are you getting that?

DP5: Claims Soldier, spends a lot of the DP evading or holding off answering questions about what was communicated between him and Helz in chat, giving sometimes contradictory answers (“Helz told me that he was 2x Rolestoppper” vs. “He did not use the term Rolestopper in our chat” vs. “I did ask him if he was the Rolestopper and he confirmed that he thought that is what his role is normally called on here”), stating the role “Vaporizer” for the first time publicly, and giving weak reasons for townreading Helz.

I don't believe that I ever gave contradictory answers. If it sounded like I did, I think I've clarified it. Again: Helz claimed something that sounded like Rolestopper; I suggested that's what his role was; he agreed but said that it wasn't called Rolestopper, and instead suggested Vaporizer without claiming that was his role's official name.

I literally quoted your specific responses, so yes, you did provide contradictory answers. Yes, you did use the capitalized word "Vaporizer" first publicly in the DP. And I only have your word that all this is explained by the contents of a chat you can't show me.

whiteflame wrote:

Because it is by far the weakest logic out of all of them. Read back through all the flips we have, scum and town. None of them just say "it has this generalized property, thus you are _____." They all point to specific roles these elements play in different environments, behavioral patterns, discovery conditions, chemical bonds, and nuclear physics. Even Shining's role directly relates to Uranium's use in bombs. How does yours comport with any of those? For that matter, "heaviest" is just a weird delineation when it comes to elements. It's the heaviest by atomic mass, but it's not the densest. That would be Osmium. Why is heaviest the measure Pie would select and not density? Why not point to literally anything any element has over all over elements on the Periodic Table and use that as a basis for the Soldier? It's weird, man.

And are you going to tell me that Mikal and Helz let me claim that, if all your points are legitimate? And this does make sense as the measure of heaviness because it's periodic table of elements mafia. You can see the atomic mass written right on the reiodic table entry, at least if your table goes that far.

Why are you talking about getting modkilled now? You're talking about in-game choices you made... all the way back in DP1, as though that somehow defends you against anything I said. And no, I don't believe you tied yourself to Mikal in any way. Where are you getting that?

If I'm scum now, I've been scum from the beginning, so, yes, it does make sense to bring up choices that I made all the way back then. Mikal was hard townreading that slip even though he didn't say that it totally townlocked me.

I literally quoted your specific responses, so yes, you did provide contradictory answers. Yes, you did use the capitalized word "Vaporizer" first publicly in the DP. And I only have your word that all this is explained by the contents of a chat you can't show me.

Helz called it Vaporizer with a capital V, although, now that I'm looking at it again, that might just have been because he started a sentence with it, not because he was necessarily using it as a proper noun. Helz described his role as anything targeting the person gets vaporized, other than, presumably, his ability. I interpreted this as Pie's justification for Rolestopper.

Thoth wrote:

Disregarding the fact that U is for Uranium... Bombs!, how do you justify going from this:

Uranium to Bomb is such an obvious 1 to 1 that I’m wondering if this is another “Cobalt is Magnet” situation.

To this:

The "Uranium is Bomb" claim is not great, either, as it looks most akin to Mikal's claim out of all the ones we've seen so far.

I'm not sure what you're saying. Are you sussing the claim because the justification is too clean?

Yes. I thought that was pretty clear. It seems a bit obvious and easy for someone to come up with on the fly, as I think Mikal did (though he clearly used the Redirector as a basis for claiming Magnet).

Thoth wrote:

Despite seemingly tying myself to Helz later, can I get some towncred for being the only person voting him at the end of day 1?

...why would you get credit for an extremely weak early bus that was never going to achieve a lynch?

basically just blanket null reads Shining because apparently he hasn’t posted enough to get any reads (not accurate)

I'm not saying that Shining has posted nothing, just that there wasn't nearly as much to work from there as with some other players.

You read him as null and didn't go through with an ISO on him. That's what I'm pointing out.

the decision not to look it up after Helz said it that specific way is beyond me.

Again, I had no reason to think it was the role's official name. I figured that Helz's justification said something like, "you have role X because you vaporize things", and that was Helz's nickname for his role.

You said he capitalized it for you in the chat, effectively giving the role a name, and then walked it back. You never once thought it was a good idea to check and see if he may have slipped? Really?

If Mikal and Helz were in scum chat with me, do you think they would let me change my story like this and not provide me with a fake claim yesterday before I claimed Soldier today?

I'm not convinced they're involved in anything you're doing here today, and the delay out to DP4 seems to have worked pretty well for you, so... yes? And yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if they are upset with you.

Helz also said later that he assumed his role would be called Vaporizer if it had an official name, but that he had never heard of a role called that. I assume he knew about that role and was tricking me into not looking it up.

Thoth wrote:

whiteflame wrote:

Because it is by far the weakest logic out of all of them. Read back through all the flips we have, scum and town. None of them just say "it has this generalized property, thus you are _____." They all point to specific roles these elements play in different environments, behavioral patterns, discovery conditions, chemical bonds, and nuclear physics. Even Shining's role directly relates to Uranium's use in bombs. How does yours comport with any of those? For that matter, "heaviest" is just a weird delineation when it comes to elements. It's the heaviest by atomic mass, but it's not the densest. That would be Osmium. Why is heaviest the measure Pie would select and not density? Why not point to literally anything any element has over all over elements on the Periodic Table and use that as a basis for the Soldier? It's weird, man.

And are you going to tell me that Mikal and Helz let me claim that, if all your points are legitimate? And this does make sense as the measure of heaviness because it's periodic table of elements mafia. You can see the atomic mass written right on the reiodic table entry, at least if your table goes that far.

Yes. It wouldn't be a first for you to just claim without talking to your partners about it. And that's not responsive to the point I'm making. I didn't say your element wasn't heavy. I'm saying your justification stands out a lot compared with every single flip we've seen.

Why are you talking about getting modkilled now? You're talking about in-game choices you made... all the way back in DP1, as though that somehow defends you against anything I said. And no, I don't believe you tied yourself to Mikal in any way. Where are you getting that?

If I'm scum now, I've been scum from the beginning, so, yes, it does make sense to bring up choices that I made all the way back then. Mikal was hard townreading that slip even though he didn't say that it totally townlocked me.

Yeah, and decisions made in DP1 aren't tied to any results or activity beyond what's posted in the DP, so no, they aren't very informative. It's all a lot of WIFOM. Do I think Mikal would pretend to townread your claim? Sure, plenty of us did. That doesn't mean he townlocked you. Mikal said multiple times in chat with me that he was sussing you, so no, this doesn't work.

I literally quoted your specific responses, so yes, you did provide contradictory answers. Yes, you did use the capitalized word "Vaporizer" first publicly in the DP. And I only have your word that all this is explained by the contents of a chat you can't show me.

Helz called it Vaporizer with a capital V, although, now that I'm looking at it again, that might just have been because he started a sentence with it, not because he was necessarily using it as a proper noun. Helz described his role as anything targeting the person gets vaporized, other than, presumably, his ability. I interpreted this as Pie's justification for Rolestopper.

And your story changes again. Lovely. This is not helping you.

...why would you get credit for an extremely weak early bus that was never going to achieve a lynch?

If nothing else, because I wasn't on the mislynch wagon when scum had no way to know that they would get enough townies to finish it.

You read him as null and didn't go through with an ISO on him. That's what I'm pointing out.

I did ISO Shining, repeatedly. I just didn't end up finding much noteworthy that you didn't point out already.

You said he capitalized it for you in the chat, effectively giving the role a name, and then walked it back. You never once thought it was a good idea to check and see if he may have slipped? Really?

No, I actually did never consider the possibility that it was a slip. Again, I thought Vaporizer was just Helz's way of saying that his justification had something to do with vaporizing the abilities that were going to affect his target.

I'm not convinced they're involved in anything you're doing here today, and the delay out to DP4 seems to have worked pretty well for you, so... yes? And yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if they are upset with you.

I have an even harder time imagining Helz being uninvolved with a game than I would have had convincing myself last DP that my townread of him was wrong.

Thoth wrote:

Helz also said later that he assumed his role would be called Vaporizer if it had an official name, but that he had never heard of a role called that. I assume he knew about that role and was tricking me into not looking it up.

Alright, I've had enough of this back-and-forth. It's 12:15 AM here and I'm not going to spend all night engaged in this rereading of your chat with Helz or all the WIFOM logic over and over. So I'm going to make this simple:

Give me any reason to townread you that goes beyond you tying yourself so closely to Helz.

Give me any reason to scumread Shining.

If you want to convince me, that's what I need.

Yes. It wouldn't be a first for you to just claim without talking to your partners about it. And that's not responsive to the point I'm making. I didn't say your element wasn't heavy. I'm saying your justification stands out a lot compared with every single flip we've seen.

But then you'd have to believe that not only have I learned nothing from previous games, but also that Mikal and Helz let me make all the later additions or changes that I did in addition to the initial claim of having a hidden role. If my justification stands out, it's only because the other justifications are wild, and I don't think anybody was sussing the clear and obvious justification of having a hidden role because Oganesson has barely been studied.

Yeah, and decisions made in DP1 aren't tied to any results or activity beyond what's posted in the DP, so no, they aren't very informative. It's all a lot of WIFOM. Do I think Mikal would pretend to townread your claim? Sure, plenty of us did. That doesn't mean he townlocked you. Mikal said multiple times in chat with me that he was sussing you, so no, this doesn't work.

I can't really refute this point other than by pointing out that you yourself acknowledge this is all WIFOM, hence not really a point for or against me.

And your story changes again. Lovely. This is not helping you.

I've never changed my story. If it looks that way, it's because you're misunderstanding fragments of it that I've posted and not looking at the other information I gave.

I did ISO Shining, repeatedly. I just didn't end up finding much noteworthy that you didn't point out already.

Every single post you've given that says anything about Shining behaviorally has reduced him to null. If you're actually town, you know for a fact that he's scum now. Are you telling me there is absolutely nothing he's posted all game that would indicate as much to me?

How about this from Shining's DP1:

I also don't fully understand why Mikal is getting shit for the whole Kohai IC thing.