We still got two scum lmao. We are winning. Even if this is a mislynch we are far from behind lol
agreed, if i have to be mislynched at any time id rather it be now while we can still afford it than later. just hope it helps with the poe
We still got two scum lmao. We are winning. Even if this is a mislynch we are far from behind lol
agreed, if i have to be mislynched at any time id rather it be now while we can still afford it than later. just hope it helps with the poe
Good lcuk guys its been a pleasure, i think we can still win this
I know why I was voting him lol. I was asking why you were, and based on your answer it looks like you were just joining the consensus because everyone else did
i mean i agreed with the logic it seemed like we had caught scum. if i was just mindlessly bandwagoning i wouldnt have argued with helz later explaining said logic
do u not remember? at this point in time we were working under the theory that someone in their guild was scum who had known who the cop was going to target and set them up to frame them. this was ur argument, and me and several others agreed with the logic. this is the same thing i was trying to hammer into helz brain later when he wasnt understanding why someone in their guild was likely behind the messed up result. this was not some big mystery pie. rex wasnt being forthcoming with info that we believed at the time would reveal a mafia member, so the vote was to help get him to understand the urgency. you voted before me here btw litrly two posts before i made my vote.
Why were you willing to lynch a claimed cop in DP3?
what are you talking about? lol
there is no way he is seriously voting me instead of occam razor'ing banana being jailkept from killing twice
twice? it didnt even happen once let alone twice lol
there was only one missing kill. what are you on
ou keep shifting the subject back to you and I don't know why. Part of your reason for dismissing the results of Wryly's investigation as meaningful was to say that she got an incorrect result two times in a row. As I've pointed out, that's just not true. And no, I'm not trying to implicate you with these results. I'm focused on whether this gives significant support to REF and Awesome's claims. Been focused on POE since I started responding to you.
i wasnt actually caught on some result or anything tho. from what i understand the reason im being focused is because of "poe" that results from eliminating ref/awesome from the poe, so all im saying is to let my town flip reverse that decision to confirm them and get you to think about this outside the box is all.
I feel like you've been more defensive in response to me than is warranted given I haven't been responding with reasons to sus you.
i keep trying to emphasize that i know im the lynch and am okay with the lynch. i dont see how that is defensive at all. i just want there to be something useful to come out of my mislynch, and i dont see how continued discussion about results will accomplish that. the whole point of my spheal here is to learn literly anything from this lynch so you can find scum and town can win in the end. if my lynch enables town to focus down and hunt the other two scum im happy. if my lynch doesn't accomplish anything, and i somehow get blamed for not doing enough to disprove results, i will be a little angry. just dont spin the mislynch back on me, and use it to get other scum. thats all i am asking. not being defensive. not even defending myself really. i am okay being lynched.
I never once used the TMI argument against you as far as I remember.
i didnt say u did, but other people have. basically im okay with being scumread for being open minded especially if the end result was me joining the right wagon.
Im pointing out that it’s odd that you defended both scum, however lightly and provided them with an out. But when it came to Shining, zilch.
i had behavioral reasons to scum read both of the lynches though, and they werent the copy pasted ones every one else was repeating the entire time about the "scum slip thoth made" or the "scum slip alyssa made", i thought thoth was scummy because he deflected so much in claiming all night after being repetdly asked for a claim, then when he does get on he says hes been up all night and needs to sleep but still somehow didnt want to claim until late that day phase. then when he eventually did claim he was an unrecruitable back up doctor? like all that stalling and deflecting just to give up was the major thing scummy to me. i didnt really care about the other arguments as much around the supposed slip, and was willing to buy it could have been a brain fart yes. just because i accepted some of his nonsense, didnt mean i accepted all of it. and i was never town reading him at any point so i dont know why that would be used to scum read me. and alyssa i thought the nail in the coffin was her complete lack of defending herself and just straight giving up.
Yes, but it’s different. You didn’t vote Helz, I’m pretty sure. And you were solid on him being town at the end of the DP.
i did vote for him actually and i even argued with him back and forth one night all night trying to get him to understand why he was being scum read, and when he wasn't getting it or understanding it i even pinged you whiteflame and mharman to come try bother explaining it to him remember? if you want me to go dig up the posts i can but i am responding to like 20 people so id rather if you just looked it up yourself. i was town reading him at the end of the day phase after his continued back and forth with everyone and how passionate he was in his defense of himself. i also kind of agreed with some of the points he was making about why we were demanding specifically what his role is as if it would have actually made any kind of difference. u were lynch mobbing him because he wasn't complying with u, it felt more policy than behavior related.
If you voted him and scumread him at the end while also saying for the record, I townread him, I would agree that the situation is same. I don’t think that’s the case tho
i think you should re read my interactions with helz for a better understanding of where i was with him and why i ultimately switched on him being scum to town
We are accounting for a forced shift in targets, a.k.a. a Redirector. That's the big x-factor. There are always unknowns, but considering how this piece of evidence was acquired, it cuts out a substantial number of them. And at least what I'm taking away from it is that it's far less likely for REF or Awesome individually or together to be scum. If REF was lying about his role, Wryly would have flagged him. If Awesome was lying, then REF's role would have resulted in him being flagged by Wryly. Neither scenario happened and we know a Lawyer couldn't have caused this. It's not proof positive, but it's not like everyone here is just automatically granting it as given, either. Nonetheless, it is pretty strong evidence, and we've seen you be pretty dismissive of it.
its not just dismissive, i ouright refuse to acknowledge anything mechanical. i know im the lynch, so when im lynched and town the onus is on you to figure out why the mechanics are wrong. idc enough to convince u otherwise. the only truth i know and can repeat like a parrot is that im town, its on you if you dont believe me. or you can blame mikal for the mechanics. either way expecting me to have an answer to anything that happened night action wise is a bit silly isnt it? ill let you do that post flip.
Banana, we went over this last DP extensively. Wryly's role will flag a target from the other Guild, regardless of whether they're scum or town. That's how it's supposed to work, Mikal informed Wryly about that last DP and several of us (myself included) were baffled by it. The result was right, but our understanding of what it meant was wrong. We now understand what those results mean and can apply that understanding correctly going forward.
doesnt mean anything to me. my role card is town so u trying to convince me that any of these results should implicate me and thinking that should mean anything to me is just crazy
Fair enough, I'm just trying to focus your attention so that we can get something more out of this. There are things you're saying that don't make sense to me, so I'm trying to understand.
i feel like ive been pretty straigtforward
Can you expand on what was opportunistic?
when u have someone like me who has 0 way to town confirm themselves, isn't in a guild, and has been the major topic of discussion for two day phases in a row, do u not think its weird that he isn't really trying to look elsewhere? my lynch is happening. why push it so hard and why not be open to finding other scum lol. it reeks of desperation, and scum are down two and need these mislynches, they have every reason to be desperate. i am dead, one way or another. i have no reason to fake my reads
What were the bad reasons and semantics? Can you expand on these?
If you just want to discuss behavior, what about awesome and Rex's behavior strikes you as scummy?
i have before but sure, rex and awesome were both pursuing me for very poor reasons. awesome tried to make it sound like i scum slipped and just voted me and dis-appeared, plus has been pretty inactive. also ive seen the strengthener used as a fake claim before, i dont know if i have seen it as town yet. and rex just keeps going for the ez lynches. his role is really scummy, and he seems to be only getting a pass for being in ur guild. we have no reason to town confirm him, so add his voting behavior on top of his role claim its just baffling why he is being dismissed so much. i dont have anything to town read him on basically. either of them really. i have reason to town read others in the poe
I mean thanks for confessing you’re scum.
what are you talking about? my point is that whenver someone full pursues someone who is scum it gets dismissed as "tmi". or even the opposite, when i town read helz it got dismissed as tmi. but when im open to both sides its also scummy. ur bias towards me is on clear display. what did i do to make u dislike me so much lol
That doesn’t answer my question. Both people, who just happened to flip scum, you provided a reasoning for them to be town.
i dont see how its scummy that i am being open minded about ppl being town when ppl are also scum read for doing the opposite lol
Did you do that for any of the people that flipped town?
helz....
If I were town in your position, I would start reassessing my towncore and poking around for scum within that group, instead of simply standing athwart POE-restricting mechanical elements and screaming 'stop'. I would not continue to doggedly scumread two players that are easier to mislynch than my towncore even after mechanics cleared them pretty thoroughly.
my town/scum reads are based on behavior not mech tho so we are very different
I feel like I got a buddy on trial for murder but her attorney is saying they won't be discussing forensics.
ur acting like there is fingerprints and evidence all over the crime scene when there isnt. forensics have nothing to work with
No, you provided a town case for both of them.
its funny that being open minded is scummy, and death tunneling scum is tmi lol u guys are hilarious sometimes. damned if i do, damned if i dont.
Thoth, you said you could see him brain farting I believe.
sure, we are all human, and town make mistakes all the time. its not out of the realm of possibility. i still ended up voting for him.
Alyssa you said Popular is usually town
it usually is.
So you think it's awesome/Rex, one of them lawyered Rex, the other redirected Pie, and on NP3 they targeted either Pie or you to NK?
i already told u i wont be discussing mechanics. i know im town, so i know something is happening with results and actions we dont understand but are pretending to understand them for some reason. i know im being lynched. there is litrly no point in trying to come up with 10 thousand reasons why something did or didn't happen. u can ask urself the question above when i flip town and u have to re-evalute ur reads.
No objective person here believes you.
idrc lol
Why did you give an out to Thoth and Alyssa? Why did you hedge the motives for their actions?
i didnt give an out to anyone, i just scum read them for different reasons than the ones everyone else was bandwagoning for.
its blatantly obvious one of u two is liking every single post anyone makes against me lol its a bit pathetic
I'll reiterate:
Mikal told me a Strengthener would take prio over a Redirector, Lawyer, Bus Driver, or result-randomizing ability.
Mikal told me that a Strengthener does not take prio over wincon mechanics, i.e. if awesome strengthens me and I investigate Pie again, I still get a guilty.
Mikal told me that for investigation powers like Cop, a result-randomizing ability would always return a false result.
and im still town. but do what u gotta do girl.
So even when we're straight up given information on the mechanics of how certain roles work by Mikal and it's confirmed by other players, we should just set them aside?
i didnt say to set anything aside, i said there are other variables and unknown factor we cant know or account for, so ur applying what limited info u do have and making conclusions out of them, and because i dont know what other variables their are, that is being used against me as evidence that there are no other variables. u see my problem with this?
Also, to be clear again, we have one wrong result on Alyssa and an apparently correct result on Pie, we just didn't understand the context for that second result at the time.
semantics. pie is town, we know this, and the result was wrong. i dont even see what point ur trying to make here.
Focusing on one thing at a time. If you believe this result should go away, I want more than just "there has been manipulation before" as a reason.
i already told u im not giving it to u. i simply do not know. your trying to get blood from a stone. i know im being lynched, i literly just want my lynch to do something other than make you say "oh jee jilly gosh, the results messed with us again!" and get you to at least consider the idea that the people u are using to town confirm them with are just as likely to be scum as u thought i was when you mislynched me.
I'm open to my mech reasoning being wrong, but I'm not open to opting out of mech reasoning altogether as long as mech is in the game. I'm open to alternate scenarios that could explain my results, flaws in my logic, things I may have overlooked -- but just saying "u don't know" doesn't help me and isn't even really trying to engage the data.
well "i dont know" is the honest to god truth.so is me telling u im town. and i get that this isnt enough for u and never will be. i know im the lynch. even if i magically survived today, i will always be a lynch because i have nothing going for me. not being in a guild, ill never be able to prove my role, and ill always be in the poe. literally my only point in arguing any of this is because u are using ur results to town confirm two people i think are very likely the scum team: awesome/rex. i just ask that after my lynch u take ur mech analysis being wrong into heavy consideration, and consider that there are things u dont know about the mechanics and that ppls have the incentive to lie.
What variables? Like help me out here girl lol. Weighing probabilities and likelihoods has always been a part of mafia. I can't just cut that out of the game.
this is by far not a normal game. twice the players, twice the roles, twice the manipulation potential for results.
The attempt by Kohai and Banana to force poe wider on shoddy reasoning is pretty damning to me. Its like they know they cannot get enough mislynchs poking around in Mestari/Magic/WF and realized that if Awesome and I are foreclosed on as mislynch targets they will lose the game
my Poe is based on behavior actually and it’s pretty narrow. I said earlier my Poe is kohai/wf/awesome/rex, removing kohai and wf for behavior reasons. I said I would be willing to place all my cards on u and awesome being the last two scum. I’d say that’s a narrow Poe considering there’s only two scum left lol
I'm not straight up calling you scum right now, am I? I'm just responding to what you posted. It's fine if you don't want to engage on mechanics, but dismissing them outright as unimportant is an odd choice. We all understand that mechanics aren't gospel, but that doesn't mean we should dismiss them out of hand. Whether you're scum or town, it's a weak response.
i wouldnt be dismissive of results in any other game. just this one because clearly we don’t understand all the mechanics and so much of it relies on ppl telling the truth about their roles and results, or scum not having the ability to manipulate them. we have every reason to believe scum have that ability with two wrong results so I don’t think it’s that far fetched to say dismissing results and mech is that crazy. I just want behavior to be some sort of factor in any of this and it isn’t anyone’s priority
I disagree that this situation is the same as others that came before. We know essential elements regarding how Wryly's role works that we didn't have last time we were interpreting her results. We have specific information about how REF's role and Awesome's role work that were not clear going into this DP, the latter of which was mod confirmed, and both interact specifically with Wryly. They're all in the same Guild together, so they could confirm each other's actions to a greater degree. This isn't meant to reflect on our read of you, but it does (and should) influence POE.
we can agree to disagree but the only way u will see the error of ur beliefs is unfortunately by mislynching me so it is what it is
Your stance is distinctly noted.
In other words anyone who dares suspect ur other guildie who you think is confirmed town all of a sudden will face the full wrath of the tigers. lol
The only way awesome is scum is if 1) he redirected me, but if he did, who redirected Pie? and 2) awesome and Rex are both scum, tried to NK either Pie or Banana NP3, and Rex lawyered NP4.
this just proves my point that u guys already know there’s things that could factor and effect results and probably more variables than this we haven’t considered but u will keep returning to the “but tha seems unlikely” to any other alternative that comes up
Banana, I get being frustrated, really I do, but this kind of response isn’t helping your case. Wryly got one result that has since been proven wrong. The second result on Pie was proven right, but only after it became clear how her role actually works
nothing i say seems to help my case. Anything I say gets used against me no matter what i do or say. No matter what happens im in the Poe. There’s nothing I can do about that. i have no way to confirm myself. Period. even if i somehow survived today my lynch is absolutely inevitable. we can afford the mislynches so it’s not the end of the world but if I’m going to be lynched i do want it at the very least to serve some kind of point or give town some kind of lesson going forward, in this case that mechanics aren’t reliable. the only truth and constant I have is that I am town and all u have is my word on that which will never be enough.
Dismissing all that with a “you got untrustworthy results before” isn’t going to cut it.
i mean ur telling me this but I KNOW I AM TOWN. so it’s impossible not to look at this and kind of laugh when we are doing the same thing and beating this dead horse like it will be anything different when i know for a fact it won’t be. again at this point I can only hope it will be some sort of lesson learned
Lol.
I don't think you'd be stupid to question it, but I would like to hear an explanation for my result other than "but you were wrong before." Unless we agree that Mikal decided to make his mechanics absolute gobbledygook, then there's an explanation for why I was wrong before, and now that we've found a plausible explanation, you don't seem to want to engage that context -- you just seem to want to emphasize the narrative of "two wrong results = all results meaningless."
i think it’s safe to say at this point that
scum have incentive to lie so we don’t know whose being honest about their roles or who they visited to begin with. u have to be a bit naive to keep taking results at face value when they’ve been wrong twice. Idk what happened, u don’t know what happened, we can theorize about it all day but at the end of the day it’s just a theory and if u want to believe someone is scum, me for example, u can just keep using that as an excuse to scum read them. the problem is you said my behavior is townie, so the fact that ur pushing this so hard despite thinking my behavior is town demonstrates to me that u have ur mind made up or u are banking more on the results than we should be.
If the team ends up being awesome / Rex can I at least get props for being the first one to solve it?
if u think this is the team but are voting me in you are lying about ur reads. in what world do you get credit for calling out the scum team if u aren’t pursuing that scum team?
ill make this deal with anyone who cares to take it. Ask me anything about my behavior and decisions n this game and I’ll be more than happy to respond and have a discussion with u. i refuse to get baited into any discussion about night actions, investigations,and what if hypotheticals when mech has been wrong every single time. the only mech we know is that there are 2 confirmed town because Mikal litrly told us this so that’s the only mech I’m buying. I’ll be fair and apply this to my magic rrad as well because I’ve only been townreading him in the poison claim. we don’t know what scum is lying about and what actions have been messed with or how. Its pointless to even talk about them like they mean anything
this may be petty but it’s gonna be amusing when results and mech lead us to another mislynch and people still act surprised about it next DP