Can’t play cause I helped Savant balance the game jfyi
Can’t play cause I helped Savant balance the game jfyi
Current Games:
None
Sign-ups:
None
In the Hopper:
Savant - Epstein Island
Mikal - re zero
Pie
Lunatic
Helz
Rex - Female rappers
Magoroth - Standoff Mafia
Thoth - TBD
Kohai - TBD
Whiteflame - Dungeon Crawler Carl
On Hold:
Wylted - Lulsec
Mag1cman
Casey_Risk
Shining
Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/29/2026 at 11:17 AM (post #222)
Fun fact: I totally lied about my justification
Apocalypse mafia Town Kohai - Zombie apocalypse - zombie apocalypses aren't actually that scary, Shaun of the Dead is the best depiction of zombies, they die so easy we'd probably make them pets. You are the stump. After you die you turn into a stump; as stump you may still talk, including at night, but you don't count toward the game and you can't vote.
Ya that lie saved tou
Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/29/2026 at 8:46 AM (post #201)
Fwiw, even if we had lynched Pie correctly this DP, there was no way I was lynching Luna next DP. I had assumed one of you had to be real with Vader's Miller claim. You guys had our number.
Ya that was the backup. As long as I wasn’t lynched, we had it in the bag. Me flipping Lawyer and Luna not dying would’ve outted him
Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/29/2026 at 8:44 AM (post #199)
Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/29/2026 at 9:43 AM (post #198)
Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/29/2026 at 7:40 AM (post #196)
Lol, was it seriously Luna/Pie? Did not see that coming.
Yeah lol. I got the whiteflame curse. 3x scum in a row :/
Crazy. Someone's going to have to explain to me how we rolled a Miller this game because, as far as I can tell, there is no role that's affected by it.
Has to be the case cause Dreamer was the fake role
VTL Kohai
Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/28/2026 at 4:13 PM (post #165)
I've gone back through the Pie/Kohai stuff and I keep coming back to the same thing: I think these two could very easily be partners.
The DP1 fight looks way better as distancing to me now. Pie jumps on Kohai, Kohai fires right back, and suddenly you've got this nice little "look, we're obviously fighting" dynamic between them. But neither one actually needs to go all the way with it. Pie gets credit for pushing scum, Kohai gets to look like he's defending himself. Pretty fucking convenient.
And look at where we are now. Kohai is sitting on my green while also telling everyone that my green might not mean shit because GF exists. Like... pick one lol. If my result is unreliable, then why are you using it to take yourself out of the POE?
Then he gets to sit there and point at me, Vader, Whiteflame, whatever, while he's basically considered untouchable. That's a hell of a position for scum to be in.
I'm not saying "they fought in DP1, so they're partners." That's lazy as shit. I'm saying the whole progression makes sense if that fight was manufactured separation.
Especially if we lynch pie and if Pie flips scum, Kohai is absolutely the first person I'm looking at. I don't think we should keep giving him a free pass because the checks are convenient for him.
I don’t blame you for bringing this back up. I should’ve listened to Mag1c when he called out your shitty logic. You guys really have no choice besides pushing Kohai/Pie
Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/28/2026 at 12:14 PM (post #156)
Originally Posted by Vader on 9/28/2026 at 12:50 PM (post #149)
I have to analyze behavior and a lot of different things. I see an argument for either Pie or Whiteflame. I don’t understand why we are letting Kohai just slide the way they are though compared to the other characters
I've said it before that I don't think we should let Kohai slide, he's just not the focus of my attention at this point. Neither are you. My focus is on what I know: there are too many investigative claims and at least one of them (Pie and Luna) is supported by your Miller claim. I have a very hard time believing that both a Dreamer and a Cop exist in this game, but one must, so I'm evaluating which of them is least likely to be real.
As for you and Kohai, I can see an argument for either of you being plausibly paired with Pie, though the case of a pairing with Luna is harder to buy for either of you, at least behaviorally. It's part of the reason I'm sussing Pie more than I am Luna.
Regarding why I saw Kohai as town for as long as I did, that's down to him being my only green check up until this DP. Now that I have one on both you and Kohai, I'm reconsidering my read on him, since both of you have the same evidence for you being town from where I'm sitting. The main difference is the green check from Luna and, if it's a given there's a Miller in this game, then it's probably a given there's a GF or Lawyer on the scum team. Pie's own PM where a Miller was confirmed to him apparently mentions a GF. I can't ignore that.
@Vader
This is just pure waffling. He goes from it’s Vader/Pie or Kohai/Pie to Vader/Pie the because it Vader/Pie or Kohai/Pie.
At this juncture in the game. As town, your job is to find your 2 fellow townies and 2 scum. The record speaks for itself. Pie constantly protecting you and preventing you from getting lynched or WF who has been on you 2 days in a row
Originally Posted by Vader on 9/28/2026 at 11:50 AM (post #149)
I have to analyze behavior and a lot of different things. I see an argument for either Pie or Whiteflame. I don’t understand why we are letting Kohai just slide the way they are though compared to the other characters
Kohai was double cleared by both Luna and WF. Only way he’s scum is if he’s exactly the godfather/lawyer. That’s hard for them to justify as scum. The idea likely was to get Kohai to join them to vote Pie or Vader, but Vader blew that up with his observation regarding Mag1c’s PM. Thats why you see the shift
Originally Posted by Vader on 9/28/2026 at 11:46 AM (post #147)
I’m honestly thrown for a loop. The Bears play tonight so trying to read through the progressions
WF is literally calling Pie/Vader as basically his top scum pairing. He was pushing you yesterday and today. You know you’re town, so Pie/Vader is never a scum line from your POV.
Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/28/2026 at 11:34 AM (post #144)
People can feel free to read through Pie’s progression for themselves. It does not read like someone who became aware that Vader was effectively townlocked by the mod early in the DP. It reads like someone who thought there could be a Miller based on his PM, second-guessed it several times, and only came in for the final 30 minutes to argue that a Miller was effectively mid-confirmed to be in the game by his PM.
Seriously, don’t take my word for it. Read through his progression on Vader last DP. ISO him yourselves. See how that sits with you.
This is just wrong. I said Vader2 was likely town based on my PM. Then #204 that WF is saying shows I “sussed” Vader2 is just wrong. That post was in response to Mag1c where I was explaining why Thoth being Vanilla made no sense.
And then at the end, I said I’ll lynch for info but I townread him. THEN I proceed to continue pushing Thoth. So to say that Pie “sussed” Vader2 is just demonstrably wrong.
I agree with him though — go read my responses to Mag1c regarding Thoth.
95% sure that WF is scum with that last post. He’s just straight up misrepresenting what I’ve said and done
Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/28/2026 at 10:39 AM (post #141)
Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/28/2026 at 11:00 AM (post #139)
I didn't say you'd complain. You'd be making a huge fucking deal in the DP if attention was put on Vader. I did notice that you mentioned Vader was likely town based on your PM earlier in the DP, but it was a long while after that and a lot of sus directed at Vader before you made the point adamantly. - WF
Read this post. He’s saying I would’ve made a big deal if Vader2 was ever going to be lynched. But I did bring the attention away from Vader2 by saying he’s likely town based on my PM very early on
And then again at the end of DP2, I diverted back to Thoth from Vader2. My Thoth read was wrong, I’ll admit that, but saying I didn’t protect my townread enough is wild.
So let's ISO how you progressed through DP2 on this.
In post 53, you said:
I think he’s town because of something in my PM, unless Bullish is a troll and specifically gave Miller as the fake claim
That indicated that you had asked something about the Miller affecting your role. I'll also note that you were lending some credence to the possibility of Miller being a fake claim here, a point you've since called me out for arguing was a possibility. Then, in post 204, you said this:
Not asked. Miller was specifically stated in my PM.
You can’t do anything about vaccum decay either, but that’s a Miller. There’s an inconsistency
That was just the second time you'd mentioned the Miller last DP and despite evidence from your own PM suggesting there was a Miller, you were sussing his justification. You once again called out the possibility of a Miller fake claim in 231. The next and last time you mentioned it was after he reached L-1 in post 322:
No no no. This is 100% misleading. I was comparing Thoth being Vanilla vs Vader2 being Miller to justify how Thoth being Vanilla doesn’t make sense. I was NOT sussing him at any point.
My role implies a Miller exists. It’s not traditionally how the role works, but Bullish made a point to mention it. I’ll hammer him to get a lynch off for information, but know that I townread him
Yes. And then I diverted to Thoth. You spearheaded the Vader2 wagon, not me. I’ve always supported lynches for information.
So, no, I wouldn't say you were at all consistent in supporting a townread on Vader despite information that's apparently just written directly into your justification. You waffled all over the DP about it until he became one of the lead lynch wagons. I've already admitted that you mentioned the PM support early in the DP, but given what you apparently had mod confirmed to you last DP and your apparent certainty now, it's beyond me why you weren't this adamant last DP.
I was adamant? I literally changed the lynch to Thoth in the last 30 minutes lmao. You’re literally misrepresenting my words and my actions.
I didn't say you'd complain. You'd be making a huge fucking deal in the DP if attention was put on Vader. I did notice that you mentioned Vader was likely town based on your PM earlier in the DP, but it was a long while after that and a lot of sus directed at Vader before you made the point adamantly. - WF
Read this post. He’s saying I would’ve made a big deal if Vader2 was ever going to be lynched. But I did bring the attention away from Vader2 by saying he’s likely town based on my PM very early on
And then again at the end of DP2, I diverted back to Thoth from Vader2. My Thoth read was wrong, I’ll admit that, but saying I didn’t protect my townread enough is wild.
There’s no world where WF can reconcile you being scum, and the fact he is shows that he’s keeping his options open.
I’ll also note that I softed Dreamer very early DP2. And I stated that I townread Vader2 because of my PM very early and the only way Vader2 was scum was if Bullish was troll
https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/88/apocalypse-mafia---dp2?commentId=6ab47c542a2feda0d8972421
Both WF and Luna were the last to claim, so they had their pick of roles to claim.
21 hours left
Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/27/2026 at 7:13 PM (post #105)
I’m going to post more this evening (sorry for the delay), but I’d like to ask everyone: do you honestly think Bullish would essentially just give away the existence of a Miller in the PM of the only known player whose results are affected by said Miller? Seriously, it would be like my PM including wording that strongly implied the existence of a Ninja, except this also effectively confirms the existence of a player with an SOP claim.
But if Bullish have Miller as fake claim, why does Kiggans not SOP claim it with Pie as partner?
To be clear, this does not make Vader’s claim sus, but I can’t believe Bullish would make this error and if he had, I can’t believe that Pie wouldn’t have made a huge fucking deal about it the moment Vader claimed.
What? Why would I as Town complain if Bullish basically confirmed a Townie to me lol.
Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/27/2026 at 12:41 PM (post #92)
Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/27/2026 at 1:07 PM (post #83)
Also, WF from ur POV can’t be town because he’s putting you + Pie as his scum team. That means he buys Luna as Cop but doesn’t buy you as Miller. It makes zero sense
Two things.
One, I've acknowledged in my responses to Luna that my read on Kohai may be wrong. Pie + Kohai or Pie + Vader could be the team from where I'm sitting, the only difference being the extra green check on Kohai that could be the result of his being the GF or having been Lawyered before being investigated by Luna.
Two, I'd like to understand how this "makes zero sense." A Cop doesn't make a Miller certain, and Pie knows that. We know scum were given a fake claim. We don't know what that fake claim was. As I've already said, if scum received a fake role claim, the Miller is more likely to be that fake claim than either Tree Stump or Dreamer. So explain what doesn't make sense.
So Miller is the fake claim that Vader/Kiggans had, but didn’t claim when they got on? That makes zero sense
I’ll respond later to WF/Luna in a bit
Also, WF is essentially claiming Tracker. His argument is that there can’t be 4 investigative roles, so Dreamer makes zero sense. But on the same foot, he’s saying Cop + Tracker + Banana’s role me 100% sense. Cop + Tracker + Banana or Cop/Tracker + Weak Dreamer + Banana seem more balanced?
Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/27/2026 at 12:32 PM (post #87)
Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/27/2026 at 10:37 AM (post #77)
Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/27/2026 at 11:26 AM (post #73)
It doesn’t tell them much to leave me alive going into LYLO. I also don’t think they thought I was dreamer especially considering how I said a Miller made sense. Why would a Dreamer say that.
Why would anything other than a dreamer know about being visited and also have something where a miller could effect it?
Dreamers usually don’t interact with Millers. I’ve never seen it interact with a Miller.
So then what were your talking about when you said the miller made sense with you?
Bullish specifically wrote in my PM that I am influenced by Millers, which is really odd. Doesn’t make sense for mod to put that. It’s never how Dreamers have historically worked
Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/27/2026 at 12:30 PM (post #85)
So, I have a lot of thoughts and I don't expect to get them out in a single post. I'm going to get out what I can now and come back to this later when I have a little more time and can respond.
To start, I want to note just how odd Pie's justification is. Honestly, when I first read he was the Dreamer, I half expected the justification to be some reference to Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? by Philip K. Dick. But what we got is stranger.
No, it says I’m smart but make mistakes. You’re the book, not me.
He's the only one with an element of his justification that is a stated opinion of the mod (he says "Bullish says he loves his AI overlords), says it includes that AI is smart, and therefore... it's the Dreamer?
You’re conveniently forgetting the other piece.
I get that we're functioning under the assumption that there are roles in play, particularly the Miller, that could affect their results, but Dreamer doesn't scream a "smart" role and that would mean that Bullish literally wrote into the role that there are roles in game that can deceive it. It's literally a part of his justification. Has anyone ever seen a mod give away that kind of information solely to justify why a given character is a given role?
I’ve been consistent since last DP that there’s a reason why I believed Vader was town, and it has to do with my PM.
Apart from that, in terms of its use, Pie hasn't given us any reason to believe his role is true. He "knew" he was visited back in NP1. Setting aside the possibility of a scum role that registers visits or Tracks a target, neither are necessary for this to be believable. As I said before, he could have just lied about knowing. Doing so got exactly what scum wanted by effectively forcing a claim out of Mag1c. I know I wasn't the only one who was confused by the decision to push Mag1c to claim, but for some reason, we've brushed that under the table as unimportant. Shocker, our claimed Doctor is now dead.
I’ve already explained this multiple times. It was a reaction test and a way to identify scum immediately. Mag1c being Doctor obviously sucked, but he was town, and I seem to recall both you and Luna still sussing him.
As for his list of 3 this DP (which he only gave after everyone else had already claimed, so there was no chance he'd been visited, despite having heavily implied that he's the Dreamer), it's not particularly surprising to me. Both Luna and I have claimed investigative roles. Both put the Dreamer in question, especially with Banana's flip. Placing attention on us makes nothing but sense at this point since the decision almost necessarily comes down to which of the three of us is lying. Given repeated green checks on Kohai from both Luna and me, I don't think it's nearly as valuable as Kohai believes to include him in the Dream result.
You’re calling Luna town with your role + Banana’s role which is the strongest combination of the 4 roles we have. My role is the weakest out of all 4.
Also, WF from ur POV can’t be town because he’s putting you + Pie as his scum team. That means he buys Luna as Cop but doesn’t buy you as Miller. It makes zero sense
Read my theory about Mag1c having the Cop with Athena and Kohai’s reading of Mag1c’s PM. It’s really telling.
I think the dead giveaway for WF being scum is that he’s specifically calling a Pie + Vader team. That implies that he believes Kohai AND Luna are town. If Luna is town, it makes sense to have a Miller in the game.
Here, he’s specifically calling it out as fake. This is a problem for him though. If Miller was the fake claim, I either SOP it immediately or make my partner do it. If Kiggans was my partner, I would’ve told him to SOP it. Makes it far more believable. But he didn’t, Vader2 did at the end. And I think everyone had also said something in DP1 before Kiggans even came on, so I would’ve told him to take Miller immediately.
I also promised I would do wagonomics. Look at DP1:
Official Vote Count
vader (4/5) - Banana, Thoth, lunatic, Kohai
Kohai (4/5) - Pie, whiteflame, magic, Vader
Not voting: JenKiggans,
Luna and WF split on each wagon. Lends more credence to Luna/WF.
Got questions for all of yall.
Pie:
If you're town, who are the two scum right now, and why? I want an actual pairing, not just a POE.
Right now, I’m 85% on WF being scum. My top scumread. Vader I buy as town. That leaves you and Kohai. Right now it’s 65-35 you vs Kohai as second scum. Kohai made a great point about the way the PM was written + Athena makes perfect sense as Cop vs you. My Dreamer is hella weak to begin with considering Millers can be on there.
If someone else, say me, was in your shoes and asked someone who visited them np1, would you be suspicious of them?
For you, it would be NAI. You’d do it as scum and town. Everyone else is on spectrum, but closer to town read.