Except we know that a single vanilla is common to some rolemad games and that Bullish regularly includes one or two in his games. Not saying that means we should give Thoth a pass, but context doesn’t support the view that it’s scummy on its face.
What about his behavior do you find townie? We can WIFOM character and role all day long. What has he done that makes you concrete townread him?
You still haven’t answer why you voted me in DP1?
Originally Posted by Thoth on 9/25/2026 at 5:32 PM (post #248)
Everything Lunatic has said so far feels so agonizingly fake. I'm sure it's possible he is town and genuinely trying to solve, but it all comes off as so forced. That said, I don't think I have a consistent gutread radar on Lunatic like with some other players on here, and I have been wrong scumreading someone for being overly helpful before. If you are town, I apologize, I know it must be frustrating to be scumread for doing your job.
Vader's claim seems plausible to me. I think Pie is assuming too much about Bullish's setup design choices in #163. That kind of analysis assumes telepathy that we don't have. Two sun apocalypses seem reasonable when they are extremely far removed from each other in time and severity. One will probably happen in my lifetime and will hurt the economy, the other will happen in the inconceivably far future and destroy the Earth.
The problem is also that basically anything can be used to justify a Vanilla. Why specially two Sun related apocalypse.
In response to my earlier question about Banana's flip, Bullish said that Sleepwalker would be Visiting and Inventor or Gifter would be Special. Not to claim that any of those roles are in the game, I was just curious about what those categories meant.
Re: #87, Pie surviving to DP2 is always at least mild evidence of him being scum. I know that is WIFOMable.
Nice shade
Originally Posted by Thoth on 9/25/2026 at 5:24 PM (post #243)
I found a breadcrumb in your post #68 yesterday
“I’d say too many people are afraid of mine. A pair of different ways it could go; I know of at least one couple in my town who actually spend time preparing for it.”
“I’- --- --- m--- ------ --- ------ -- ----. - ---- -- --------- ---- -- ----- g-; - ---- -- a- ----- --- ------ -- -y ---- --- -------- ----- ---- --------- --- --.”
So I'm not fully convinced you were hinting Doctor there.
So what do you think he was breadcrumbing and why?
Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/25/2026 at 1:11 PM (post #230)
Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/25/2026 at 12:07 PM (post #229)
Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/25/2026 at 11:24 AM (post #225)
Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/25/2026 at 10:14 AM (post #223)
Pie — Scum lean
I've moved Pie down somewhat.
I understand his explanation for the visitor situation better now, and I think the reaction test itself was reasonable enough as a concept. My issue is that I'm not convinced the results of the test are as alignment-indicative as Pie seems to think they are.
He’s also a claimed Doctor. I didn’t clear him until after he did that. Match the behavior with the role and the likely conclusion is he’s town from my pov.
So your reaction test was basically useless unless he full claimed? You could have accomplished the same thing from just throwing random pressure on anyone who was a doc and getting lucky. That's my point; You aren't making a good case for what this reaction test was ever intended to accomplish in the first place.
No? I said it was a piece of a puzzle. I had a vague expectation for how people would react. That’s half the equation. His reaction felt townie to me, but then the Doctor solidified it.
Just seems like if mafia had visited you they wouldn’t fess up to it, and it was 90% more likely if you weren’t killed you were just visited by town. Only roles I could think of would be redirector and roleblocker that you would be paranoid of. Did you think you were redirected?
They had two happens. Deny & basically out themselves or roll the dice and think I was bluffing. Safer option would be to confess.
Magic being willing to explain himself and offer a full claim doesn't necessarily distinguish town from scum, and I'm not convinced that Magic "passing" the test should carry as much weight as Pie is giving it.
I think it does. Mafia would be rattled and instantly claim someone. Only way Magic is scum is if Doctor is a fake role claim, and scum visited me with something
I mean if you have doctor as a fake claim up your sleeve, how "rattled" are you ever going to be? I've been pressuring magic since day one, and have been back and forth with him for pages. You think if he was scum he wasn't already "rattled" by that? You think it was you claiming to have been visited that would have shook him to the core?
I think it definitely would’ve been concerning, but this again assumes that Doctor is a fake claim. If there was a CC, it just implicates him, so I wasn’t really concerned about that. With no CC though, it’s more likely than not he’s town.
The doctor being a fake claim is the only scenario I think magic would be scum. But yeah at this point with no other protection roles claimed we’d have to believe there wasn’t another protection. Possible but feels unlikely.
Exactly the conclusion I arrived at
Right now, I’m seeing a Thoth + Kohai team. I could see it being Thoth + WF or Thoth + Luna in an outer scenario. Only way Vader is scum is if Bullish gave Miller as fake claim. Only way Mag1c is scum is if Doctor is fake claim and there are no protectives
Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/25/2026 at 11:24 AM (post #225)
Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/25/2026 at 10:14 AM (post #223)
Pie — Scum lean
I've moved Pie down somewhat.
I understand his explanation for the visitor situation better now, and I think the reaction test itself was reasonable enough as a concept. My issue is that I'm not convinced the results of the test are as alignment-indicative as Pie seems to think they are.
He’s also a claimed Doctor. I didn’t clear him until after he did that. Match the behavior with the role and the likely conclusion is he’s town from my pov.
So your reaction test was basically useless unless he full claimed? You could have accomplished the same thing from just throwing random pressure on anyone who was a doc and getting lucky. That's my point; You aren't making a good case for what this reaction test was ever intended to accomplish in the first place.
No? I said it was a piece of a puzzle. I had a vague expectation for how people would react. That’s half the equation. His reaction felt townie to me, but then the Doctor solidified it.
Magic being willing to explain himself and offer a full claim doesn't necessarily distinguish town from scum, and I'm not convinced that Magic "passing" the test should carry as much weight as Pie is giving it.
I think it does. Mafia would be rattled and instantly claim someone. Only way Magic is scum is if Doctor is a fake role claim, and scum visited me with something
I mean if you have doctor as a fake claim up your sleeve, how "rattled" are you ever going to be? I've been pressuring magic since day one, and have been back and forth with him for pages. You think if he was scum he wasn't already "rattled" by that? You think it was you claiming to have been visited that would have shook him to the core?
I think it definitely would’ve been concerning, but this again assumes that Doctor is a fake claim. If there was a CC, it just implicates him, so I wasn’t really concerned about that. With no CC though, it’s more likely than not he’s town.
Pie — Scum lean
I've moved Pie down somewhat.
I understand his explanation for the visitor situation better now, and I think the reaction test itself was reasonable enough as a concept. My issue is that I'm not convinced the results of the test are as alignment-indicative as Pie seems to think they are.
He’s also a claimed Doctor. I didn’t clear him until after he did that. Match the behavior with the role and the likely conclusion is he’s town from my pov.
Magic being willing to explain himself and offer a full claim doesn't necessarily distinguish town from scum, and I'm not convinced that Magic "passing" the test should carry as much weight as Pie is giving it.
I think it does. Mafia would be rattled and instantly claim someone. Only way Magic is scum is if Doctor is a fake role claim, and scum visited me with something
More broadly, I still want to understand Pie's overall solving and some of his interactions from earlier in the phase. I don't think the visitor situation is enough by itself to clear him.
Originally Posted by Mag1cman on 9/24/2026 at 11:32 PM (post #200)
With Thoth being the only vanilla, the pattern fits. Behaviorally, I find it crazy that mafia would want to fake-claim vanilla, and soft something so attention-drawing as their first post in the whole game.
Problem is that Vanilla could be the fake role claim given by Bullish in this exact scenario. Theres also the fact that I’m like 99% sure that Thoth knows rolemadness doesn’t mean 0 vanillas exist every time.
But also, the justification. You can’t do anything about vaccum decay either, but that’s a Miller. There’s an inconsistency
Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/24/2026 at 11:12 PM (post #195)
Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/24/2026 at 9:58 PM (post #191)
Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/24/2026 at 10:55 PM (post #190)
If your role tells you that someone visited you, but not who or what they did, why was your immediate reaction to demand the visitor confess rather than simply reveal that you had been visited?
I already said that it was a reaction test to potentially catch scum.
I remember you saying it was a reaction test; I was asking more about what you were trying to get out of the reaction test. If you only knew that someone had visited you, what specifically were you looking for in people's reactions that would distinguish a scum visitor from a town visitor? A scum visitor could just stay quiet, but a town visitor could also choose not to immediately claim. And if someone did confess, that doesn't necessarily make them scum either.
I'm more interested in what your actual criteria were for the test, especially since you said Magic passed it. What did Magic's response do that made you think he passed the test rather than simply being a plausible Doctor explanation?
I don't think the reaction test itself is inherently bad. I just don't want "it was a reaction test" to end the discussion when the useful information is what the test was designed to detect and what Magic did that satisfied it.
Test was designed to detect hesitancy or any sort of ask for more details, though everyone would react differently. Scum would usually ask for more details to decide how they approach me if they did visit me. Mag1c’s reaction wasn’t apprehensive. He even went so far as to say that he’d be willing to full claim even if I told him to, which he also did.
Pie — AI Takeover
This is the one I'm most interested in now that we've gotten the apocalypse claim.
I understand why Pie doesn't want to immediately give the role, especially since he claims his role is what told him somebody visited him. But that also means the role itself is important to evaluating the Magic interaction.
So I want to know what the actual mechanical information is that his role gave him, and exactly what he knew when he made the "confess or be lynched" post.
Ive answered this like five times. My role basically told me that someone visited me. I did not know who it was or what they did. I decided to run the reaction test to potentially catch scum in a lie or identify a townie.
Originally Posted by Mag1cman on 9/24/2026 at 10:55 PM (post #188)
Pie and Lunatic are the only two man-made apocalypses. I still townread Pie, but it's noteworthy to me.
But with a fake claim provided, I kind of doubt scum wouldn't use it... Unless the fake claim were role only. But the possible theme split here feels too obvious for mafia to fall into such a pitfall.
It’s obviously not the theme. It’s never that easy + I would see that in an instant and not claim that, especially considering I was the last one to claim
Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/24/2026 at 10:55 PM (post #190)
If your role tells you that someone visited you, but not who or what they did, why was your immediate reaction to demand the visitor confess rather than simply reveal that you had been visited?
I already said that it was a reaction test to potentially catch scum.
Okay, he did post a justification, but just cause you don’t/can’t prep for it doesn’t mean it’s Vanilla.
Originally Posted by Mag1cman on 9/24/2026 at 10:51 PM (post #186)
Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/24/2026 at 10:01 PM (post #163)
I definitely don’t like Thoth’s character. Two sun apocalypses, especially with so many out there?
Knowing Bullish, this might not be an issue.
I disagree. You can make anything Vanilla. Did he post a justification yet? Lemme see
I 95% sure that Thoth is scum here for a few reasons:
1) Character: Having two sun related apocalypses doesn’t make much sense, when there’s a plethora of apocalypses out there
2) Role: Vanilla. This also doesn’t make much sense. I swear Thoth has been in rolemad games before where there are multiple Vanillas. I’ll have to dig it up. I don’t buy it at all
3) Role: I don’t think anyone was pressuring him for a full claim. Him giving away his role like that especially after previous game is rather odd. Almost like he was eager to give it.
4) He never answered my question about why he was voting me at the beginning, even after I asked him multiple times. I don’t think he’s had an original thought. Practically buddied and bandwagoned yesterday if i remember correctly.
VTL Thoth
Also, Thoth should know by now that rolemad can have Vanillas. Why call that out as a lie?
I definitely don’t like Thoth’s character. Two sun apocalypses, especially with so many out there?
Do you have an issue character claiming?
Originally Posted by Thoth on 9/24/2026 at 6:58 PM (post #148)
I am sorry, guys. I have been sick. I am vanilla. I will try to post more in a bit. I was thinking whiteflame might be vanilla too based on him saying something similar to my PM. I don’t think he should confirm or deny if he hasn’t yet.
Why does that make you townread him?
Hmmm
Kohai needs to full claim. 50/50 shot in a lynch within Kohai, Luna, WF, Thoth
Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/24/2026 at 2:38 PM (post #136)
Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/24/2026 at 3:34 PM (post #134)
Originally Posted by Mag1cman on 9/24/2026 at 9:27 AM (post #90)
let’s get Lunatic’s claim. I’ll help you get Kohai’s if you help me with this.
Im comfortable with that. Right now my POE is Luna, Kohai, Thoth, Whiteflame. 50/50 chance. I also want to pursue Thoth today as well
Ive been really busy and will catch up later.
if we are going this route then why not mass claim today
How about you full claim
VTL Kohai
Originally Posted by Mag1cman on 9/24/2026 at 11:30 AM (post #105)
https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/87/apocalypse-mafia---dp1?page=3&comment_number=68
“I’d say too many people are afraid of mine. A pair of different ways it could go; I know of at least one couple in my town who actually spend time preparing for it.”
The sentence is just true. I’ve seen too many Christians talk about a fear of Judgement Day, there’s multiple theories among Christian scholars about how it would go down, and every family in my church is preparing for it; that comes with walking the path of faith.
Furthermore, the post was worded to leave a breadcrumb:
too = 2
pair = 2
one = 1
couple = 2
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2022%3A12&version=ESV
Revelation 22:12
“Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompenses with me, to repay each one for what he has done.”
My character is “God exists and we face judgment”
You might ask, how does that lead to Doctor? The answer is that I got to choose which god exists NP0. My options were Athena, Ra, and Jesus.
I thought this game had a lot more moving parts and bs roles than it actually did, so I chose Jesus hoping to get something really OP like a res ability, and got Doctor, because Jesus healed the sick, the crippled, and the demonically possessed.
So what was your role to begin with?
Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/24/2026 at 11:33 AM (post #106)
From my perspective at least, your role is not confirmed, Pie demanded your claim, and yet he’s the one you claim should be able to effectively confirm you. Maybe this is an issue on his end and something he missed. I’m ready and willing to have that proven to me anytime.
Behaviorally, I’ve been mixed on your responses so far, but I wouldn’t say I’m actively scumreading you atm. I get that you have others who are, but maybe don’t just assume I’m scumreading you because I’ve got you in POE, have been asking questions and have been confused by some of your choices.
But no, I’m not going to townlock you over what I’ve seen so far. You’re leaving that largely to Pie and he hasn’t done much to establish that you are, honestly.
I don’t think Mag1c is scum. The confusion is my own fault cause of how I was baiting. I think we can move off of Mag1c
