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Kohai

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Kohai

I feel like there has to be a solve here. A few things stick out:


1) Whiteflame's claim and role:


All I’ll say for now is that I got one of my all-time favorite apocalypses. Do with that what you will.


https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/87/apocalypse-mafia---dp1?comment_number=8


Ice-IX is a unique apocalypse from Cat's Cradle, which I have never heard of until now. Personally, this looks like a perfect fake claim since it would require Bullish having knowledge of this book and specific type of apocalypse and whiteflame just happening to get their all time favorite.


It's not impossible, but a lot of things that make this stick out like a sore thumb.

Kohai

Whiteflame p#54


Ice-IX functions by seeding, transforming sources of water or ice into Ice-IX (which has a way higher melting temperature than normal ice). Effectively, because it literally comes into contact with water molecules and spreads along that path, I am the contact counter.



Kohai

Dead:


Banana- Alien Invasion- Even Night Follower


Banana - Alien invasion - we'd like to think we can put up a fight against an alien invasion, but the fact is an alien civilization that can space travel can probably vaporize us like ants. Before aliens invade us they might probe us; but travelling back and forth takes a long time. For this reason you are the even-night follower - each even numbered night, you may visit a player, and learn the type of action they took; the possible results are: none, visiting, informational, protective, manipulative, killing, special.


Thoth - Sun Red Giant - Vanilla Town


Sun transforming into a red giant - in a billion years, the sun will turn into a red giant and engulf earth in flames. However, this apocalypse is so far into the future it's unlikely to happen to humans as we know ourselves today. You are vanilla.


Vader1- Solar Flare- 2x Roleblocker


Vader - Solar flare - Anomalous surface turbulence may cause massive quantities of high energy electromagnetic emissions to escape the sun and hit earth. While solar flares are unlikely to directly harm humans on earth, they could cause an EMP that fries all electronics on earth, which may cause economic and then societal collapse. You are the town 2x roleblocker.


Mag1cMan- God exists and we face judgment- Doctor (chose Jesus as his god) (protected pie)


Magic - God turns out to be real - God turns out to be real, and we humans face their judgement and wrath. He grants powers to his most devout followers. During the pre-game phase, you may choose your patron god; your ability will be based on the patron god you choose. The ability will not be revealed to you until the end of DP1, you must take it on faith. Your options:

Ra - ()

Jesus - (Jesus is known for curing lepers through miracles, but not for spotting traitors. You are the doctor.)

Athena - ()



Claims:


Whiteflame- Ice-IX from Cat’s Cradle (p#6)

My role is called a Contact Counter. The way it works is that I target someone, and I get a count for the number of people who are in their contact chain. My visit counts towards that chain. So, for example, if I used it on myself and no one targeted me, it's a chain of 1. If I used it on someone else who didn't visit anyone, it's a chain of 2. If my target does visit someone, it's a chain of 3. I got a whole list of possible results based on various interactions after asking several questions of Bullish, so if people want to know them, I can go through it.


The long and short of it: I used my night actions on Kohai NP1 and Vader NP2. I chose two players who claimed roles that did not visit, since picking a target who did visit someone else would just confirm that they had visited someone, not who they visited or why. Both Kohai and Vader had chains of two, meaning that, absent any fuckery, I confirmed that Kohai did not visit anyone NP1 and Vader did not visit anyone NP2.



Vader 2- Vacuum Decay- Miller (day 2)

My character is false vacuum decay. It’s a fake a quantum state that is meta stable and because I am false I am Miller


Lunatic- Nuclear War - Cop (p#12)

Well I was hoping for some solid results last night, but nothing. I am Nuclear War, MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction). I am the cop. Justification is all about deterrence cold war era doctrine that says if 1 party uses nukes, the other will retaliate in kind and both parties will be destroyed. Maintaining nuclear deterrence depended on intelligence, early warning systems, and the ability to identify an enemy's actions before responses were made which is why I am cop. Thought the justification was kind of a stretch at first until I seen other people's justifications lol.


Night One I investigated Whiteflame, Night Two I investigated Kohai.


Both are innocent.



Kohai- Zombie Apocalypse- Tree Stump (day 2 link)

Zombies were dead but are back to life to eat your brian. Hence i come back to life as a tree stump



Pie- AI Takeover- Dreamer (p#35)

Justification: Bullish says he loves his AI overlords. AI is super smart and basically knows everything but still can be very wrong. This Dreamer.



Kohai


Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/27/2026 at 10:54 PM (post #128)

Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/27/2026 at 10:46 PM (post #127)
If Vader is scum then who is their likely partner and why?

You’d have to believe it’s either Pie or Luna. Both have given his role significant support, though only the former has said a Miller has effectively been mod confirmed to them as part of his PM. Either way, if Vader is scum, his partner would’ve had to guess at the existence of an alignment-investigative role before Vader. I recognize that that also means they would have had to ignore pretty big softs during the last DP and gone for the claimed Doc as their kill. They would have decided not to visit Pie (if Luna’s scum), or not RB Luna (if Pie’s scum). Still an outside chance scum received Miller as a fake claim, but I’m buying that less and less the more I consider it.


That wasn’t the question. It’s not what “Is have to believe” it’s what you would believe

Kohai

Still the main issue


Jesus - (Jesus is known for curing lepers through miracles, but not for spotting traitors. You are the doctor.)


Kinda implies maybe another god would have been able to spot traitors and would have been the cop?

Kohai


Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/27/2026 at 9:13 PM (post #112)

Originally Posted by Vader on 9/27/2026 at 6:59 PM (post #104)
What is the justification for Athena being cop?

Idk exactly, but I swear there was a Greek myth about her creating a jury to determine innocent vs guilt for the guy who killed his mom.



The Greek Goddess, Athena, identified with the patriarchy and usually cast her power and support on their side during any dispute. In the first jury trial in recorded history, she cast the deciding vote to acquit Orestes of the murdering of his mother to avenge his father's death. Athena was persuaded by Apollo's argument in Orestes' defense that the death of a mother was of less importance than a father's death, since the woman simply nurtured the seed while it was actually the man who planted it. This is the story.


https://www.dominalaw.com/legal-blog/2011/may/the-root-origin-of-trial-by-jury/



Kohai

Question: if pie is lying then how did he know someone visit them?


I’ll be back on later. Gonna go to the bar. Got a lot of stuff saved to go over.

Kohai


Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/27/2026 at 8:15 PM (post #106)
Realized I had an assumption I didn’t clarify in there, one that I think is warranted. I’m functioning from the assumption that either the Dreamer or the Cop are real, not both. If the Dreamer is real, it’s the only alignment investigative and Luna is lying. The same is true of the Cop.

So from your POV you’re saying either pie or Luna have to be scum. Which one is most likely and why?

Kohai


Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/27/2026 at 2:17 PM (post #97)

Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/27/2026 at 1:02 PM (post #96)
The fact Luna just suggested me + you feels like they’re in panic mode

That + WF is shifting to Pie/Kohai

Yeah. The more I read the more I come to wf / Luna

Kohai


Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/27/2026 at 1:07 PM (post #83)
Also, WF from ur POV can’t be town because he’s putting you + Pie as his scum team. That means he buys Luna as Cop but doesn’t buy you as Miller. It makes zero sense

*^^

Kohai


Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/27/2026 at 12:51 PM (post #81)
Read my theory about Mag1c having the Cop with Athena and Kohai’s reading of Mag1c’s PM. It’s really telling.

This theory honestly makes the most sense

Kohai


Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/27/2026 at 12:11 PM (post #68)

Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/26/2026 at 10:34 PM (post #56)
My biggest fear is still a Luna / wf team. Noting from mag1c’s flip

Jesus - (Jesus is known for curing lepers through miracles, but not for spotting traitors. You are the doctor.)

I wonder if one of tbe other gods would have e been the cop

I was thinking the same thing. Athena makes so much sense as the Cop. And even if Mag1c didn’t choose Cop, we have my Dreamer that could sort stuff out. We just got unlucky that Mag1c visited me.

Also the fact that BOTH WF/Luna cleared you is interesting


This. 1000% this.

Kohai

Yeah. I’m strongly feeling a wf / Luna team.


Wf’s claim sticks out like a sore thumb

W!Pie always includes me in the dream for an easy ML

Lunatic’s cop claim: One of the gods Mag1c didn’t pick was more likely to be the cop especially given the wording of the flip

Kohai

My biggest fear is still a Luna / wf team. Noting from mag1c’s flip


Jesus - (Jesus is known for curing lepers through miracles, but not for spotting traitors. You are the doctor.)


I wonder if one of tbe other gods would have e been the cop

Kohai

WF’s Ice-IX from Cat’s Cradle stands out to me. That character + their role sticks out like a sore thumb among the players who’ve claimed and flipped

Kohai

Dead:


Banana- Alien Invasion- Even Night Follower

Vader1- Solar Flare- 2x Roleblocker

Mag1cMan- God exists and we face judgment- Doctor (chose Jesus as his god) (protected pie)


Claims:


Thoth- Sun turning into red giant- Vanilla 

Whiteflame- Ice-IX from Cat’s Cradle

Vader 2- Vacuum Decay- Miller

Lunatic- Nuclear War - Cop

Kohai- Zombie Apocalypse- Tree Stump

Pie- AI Takeover- Dreamer


Kohai

The issue I’m having with that worldview is pie clearly knew someone targeted him and Mag1c claimed it.


Pie + Luna town = wf + Vader is the team

Kohai

I should essentially have 3 green peeks on me


Luna’s cop result

WF’s tracker result

Explicltt excluded from the dream

Kohai

Assume pie town


  1. Lunatic + Whiteflame
  2. Lunatic + Vader
  3. Whiteflame + Vader


Assuming lunatic is town


  1. ILikePie5 + Whiteflame
  2. ILikePie5 + Vader
  3. Whiteflame + Vader


Assuming Vader town


  1. ILikePie5 + Lunatic
  2. ILikePie5 + Whiteflame
  3. Lunatic + Whiteflame


Assuming WF town


  1. ILikePie5 + Lunatic
  2. ILikePie5 + Vader
  3. Lunatic + Vader



Kohai

The problem I’m having is there are only 6 possible worlds


  1. ILikePie5 + Lunatic
  2. ILikePie5 + Whiteflame
  3. ILikePie5 + Vader
  4. Lunatic + Whiteflame
  5. Lunatic + Vader
  6. Whiteflame + Vader


The question is which makes the most sense

Kohai


Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/26/2026 at 10:31 PM (post #40)

Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/26/2026 at 6:13 PM (post #13)
hmmm. Well then does a pie / Vader team make sense?

I’m so stumped this game.

This post is yikes


Please forgive me for trying to world build