I am not well read on the subject.
1, I need more information about their immunity.
2, I need more information.
3, I would assume they would enter a building if they were in pursuit and saw an illegal enter it.
I am not well read on the subject.
1, I need more information about their immunity.
2, I need more information.
3, I would assume they would enter a building if they were in pursuit and saw an illegal enter it.
American police in general are a bit trigger happy, at times, and have been for years, maybe.
Doesn't make them Gestapo.
I do not think ICE is 'more trigger happy than our regular police have been in recent years.
Seeing gun, hearing gun, gunshot, seeing someone reach into pocket.
I'm not sure American low enforcement are very good de-escalators.
But then one does not see media highlighting the good in American law enforcement, the normal, as much as the bad, maybe.
"The left has taught the right that apologizing or trying to be decent or trying to meet them halfway is seen as blood in the water and a sign to counterattack rather than a good faith attempt at reaching common ground."
I can't think of any examples of this, not that there are not examples.
I'm pretty sure ICE is very different from Gestapo.
Google AI,
Key Differences
I'm not sure there's really much one 'can villainize Alex Pretti for. . . Yet.
Sure they'll probably try anyhow, but I suspect it'll fizzle out.
Derek Chauvin and George Floyd had actions at the time of their incident and in their pasts that people could use to villainize them.
Do Canadian police not carry guns and occasionally shoot people?
(Not sarcasm,
I'm pretty sure they do, but I am curious of differences)
Bonnie and Clyde is police 'intentionally killing people, Rare.
Lot of other people who get shot, is often done because police think there was danger to their own life, as in they thought they were about to get shot.
I would not have acted as either individual did, I think.
But the law is important.
Law enforcement competence and not carelessly killing civilians is important.
I would not have been protesting at Kent State either,
But one does not blame the protestors.
. . . I expect more of law enforcement, they should not be killing people so carelessly,
Possibly neither individual was 'protesting, just ICE happened by.
Failure and carelessness in law enforcement should be held accountable.
Badly created and divisive use of ICE is not ideal to me.
What is the purpose of protest in America?
I am unsure, I have never studied it.
. . . In my view it is 'not to block traffic, ambulance, or hospital.
It is to make a view and idea 'visible, that people might rally and follow it.
In my view it is 'more locale than national,
The back of the bus for blacks, was removed because the community was made aware of how it was a problem.
Protests allowed them to gather together and locally boycott.
. . . Wars, Vietnam,
I suppose protests can 'also effect nationally.
Show a significant number of the people are unhappy.
Keep ideas in public consciousness and action at large.
I sometimes wonder if internet has 'fractured America more than unite it.
Distracted people, yes TV did so before, but internet is more powerful than TV, TV is single household box, no many internet tabs, limited to TV remote and channels.
My biggest irritation is how soon after Renee Nicole's death, Alex Pretti's death occurred.
Obviously either death is bad anytime.
Neither shooting seemed to me justified.
I am unsure why I do not 'care so much about either death individually.
(Shrug)
Hundreds of people are shot ever day in America I think?
40,000 in year of 2025, I think?
https://www.bradyunited.org/resources/statistics
https://www.thetrace.org/2025/12/data-shooting-stats-gun-violence-america/
Media is a very narrow short time period lens. 'Selective.
We 'should care about the deaths of these two people, and I do, even if I am not very 'passionate in how I care.
Law enforcement should be competent, not incompetent.
Should admit fault and hold it's officers responsible.
Should not be so trigger happy.
Where is the bravery and self sacrifice?
. . .
I can't tell what people at 'large think.
People opposed to Trump are of course upset.
. . . I'm not sure what Third Parties and people on the Right think.
Internet 'feels flooded with bots and influencers these days.
In terms of politics, internet and media 'currently feels a 'bit of a failure.
But at least internet makes a lot of information available.
. . .
I 'think the two recent shootings will harm ICE and immigrant removal cause.
. . . But I can't 'see people's hearts,
Not sure what people in power intended, intend.
Is ICE about hurting Left cities?
Is it about creating spectacle and distraction?
Is it pandering to Right and 'seeming like they are effective?
'Are they effective?
People say Trump has 'zero patriotism or other values.
. . . I am doubtful that is true, I think even evil selfish people, will often conflate themselves with various ideals and groups they have associated with.
So too neutral and 'good people.
Buying and selling seems reasonable way to make money,
Some garage sales, estate sales have stuff they sell really cheap.
Sometimes at the end of the sale or next day.
Some library booksales have really cheap books.
I suppose I'd worry about taxes and storage space.
Recent Minneapolis shooting keeps looking worse for ICE so far. Maybe.
I'm not sure there even 'was a protest,
Might have just been an impromptu gathering of people going about their day, but recording and observing ICE suddenly appearing somewhere.
Not that protesting is illegal anyhow.
Hearsay mentions Alex Pretti directing traffic a bit before his death.
Though bit unrelated, I am doubtful of the wisdom of loud noises and screaming at protests or group gatherings.
And despite myself, I have to admit, 'yes one can stand too close to law enforcement when they are doing their job, and that such is unwise.
But law enforcement can also advance and stand too close to people, also unwise. One has higher expectations of law enforcement.
I'm doubtful the right of protest allows people to block traffic and ambulances.
To my thinking right to protest, means right to publicly voice your opinion, which can be done outside, in big groups, 'ideally with permits.
Permits, that one does 'not block necessary services.
. . . Not all groups are 'protests though, crowd of impromptu observers and commentators can occur, when police or ICE appear in a location.
Such is not illegal.
I sometimes wonder whether propaganda profiles and bots act horribly, so that people will take the opposite stance.
X supported bot says horrible stuff supporting Y, so that people will side with X.
I also find once I start to argue a side, I often become more invested with that side.
And so the error of jumping to a conclusion can compound.
I don't consider what you say in #42 to be worth responding to.
My view is that kids should be introduced to some concepts in stages as they get older.
Specifically I was probably thinking about sexual conversations between adults as being something kids don't need to be a part of.
Perhaps radical online discussions as well.
. . .
Adults are 'ideally seasoned enough to take knowledge with a grain of salt,
Humans are most malleable in their youth, I think.
. . . A child who grows up with violence and war for some 10 years,
Is less functional than an adult who spends some 10 years in violence and war.
Children are weaker, lack as much intelligence, perspective, power.
They don't need to "never offending anyone."
They need to not enrage people.
The Kent State shootings as an extreme example,
It's not about "never offending anyone.", it's about not committing moronic actions that anger a significant number of people.
This loses you support for your aims.
"You don’t need uniform popularity to enforce the law"
I agree, but popularity 'helps immensely.
You need at least 'some popularity to enforce the law, if the people hate you enough, they will 'NOT conform.
"you need clear rules and consistency from a majority."
YES,
But when you escalate a situation and shoot unarmed American civilians, this is 'breaking clear rules and consistency.
Killing American civilians this often and so carelessly is 'not the consistency Americans expect.
"History is filled with examples where laws were upheld despite anger and where retreat from enforcement invited longer, wider disorder."
The law 'should be upheld, and situations such a riot 'should be contained and stopped by the police.
But police should 'not take actions that 'cause people to riot.
"Democracy dies when lawful protest is treated as equivalent to insurrection."
Did you use AI to generate this?
Because that seems more along the lines of 'my thought.
You don't 'shoot lawful protestors or people recording you with their phone.
"Law enforcement isn’t there to avoid anger"
It is there to establish order,
Causing anger creates disorder.
"Don't want to find out? Then don't FA with democratic due-process."
I don't know what FA means.
F*** All?
Americans have the right to protest, the right to record, the right to carry guns.
I'm unsure what you mean and refer in #37, can you expand upon that in more detail?
If ICE doesn't want mobs of angry civilians killing them, then they should not be frequently and openly killing unarmed American civilians.
Not that ICE should be killing 'anyone.
And not that mobs of people 'necessarily should kill ICE or certain ICE members.
But this is why I consider ICE incompetent,
You should not 'commit actions that anger the people as this.
Something I 'have thought about years back,
Is whether websites ought identify people's identity.
Though for me it is more about preventing AI.
Dead Internet theory - Wikipedia
Caring about people's age, I think is more a societal concern.
Though I can appreciate people wanting a minimum age, kids are sometimes a bit hyper, juvenile, I assume.
Frequently, more than sometimes maybe.
But that is a 'maybe, I don't even say probably.
. . . Lot of adults are juvenile,
Kids grow up eventually,
Some kids as mature enough to be part of online conversation.
. . . Though, arguably maybe they ought not be part of some adult conversations.
. . . . . . Seems more parents role to control child's internet access though.
If we 'knew someone was child, I assume we'd follow whatever DebateCraft rules said about people of X age on DebateCraft.
Also I think you edited your comment,
Though it is possible I did not read carefully enough.
What you say now in #30 I find absurd.
It is posts such as this I do not engage with you as much as I do with some others.
Such. . . I. . .
I have nothing more to say.
I do not think ICE shooting people, American citizen 'or immigrant, will gain them support.
Therefore it is not something they should be 'wanting to do,
Therefore, incompetence.
And even evil people should fear to be incompetent.
Machiavelli said it is better to be feared than loved,
But I do not think significant number of Americans 'fear ICE. This is not certain South American country with police as kill squads.
ICE does not have means to put boots on American throats.
Machiavelli said it was 'important not to be hated.
It is 'foolish to make the people hate you.
ICE shooting Americans so casual, not punishing the incompetent members or mending it's ways. Worries me.
Such actions as shooting Americans is more likely to have American's shoot politicians and members of ICE, than fearfully obey or cooperate with them.
. . .
To have some 6 people and the guy on the ground and not be able to contain him, incompetence,
To shoot an unarmed man, incompetence,
To shoot someone in a car driving by, incompetence.
Being seen as competent is 'valuable.
Villains for example,
People often like the cool and competent, but despise the lame and weak.
"What are your views on the Minneapolis and Portland shootings?"
Mostly puzzlement at the incompetence of ICE to shoot people.
I think people are right to protest ICE, as ICE's methods frequently seem to be extreme and incompetent.
There should be more transparency and oversight of ICE.
I don't see why ICE 'need guns on hand. They could always have a 'backup team with guns if there was 'proven gun violence by some individual.
'If ICE should exist at all.
I am more in favor of decreasing immigration, legal and illegal, than going after people already here.
I'm not sure it's cost effective to go after illegal immigrants already here.
"What are your views on the invasion of the sovereign State of Venezuela?"
That it did not seem to result in a war with Venezuela.
That the American state 'did create legal justification/pretext for capturing/kidnapping Maduro.
. . .
. . . What do I think would it take for Trump and/or America to be considered rogue?
If Trump took office for a third term without changing The 22nd amendment to our Constitution.
If America (Currently) invaded Mexico, Canada, and Greenland.
. . .
Rogue,
What does that even mean internationally?
International laws are a bit of a joke, still a newish idea maybe.
Maybe there 'is no international law, we are not one nation, not really, even with the UN I think.
Nations pursue their own interests, war as they like,
International law is soft law, soft suggestion, soft implication that other nations may hurt a nation for action other nation dislikes.
America is still on UN, yes?
Then how we be rogue.
And even if we were kicked out or removed from the UN, I don't think this would make us rogue.
What even 'is rogue?
Germany in WW2 is not rogue, simply enemy.
A rogue in real life is bandit, outside of laws, but there 'is no world order quite.
Rogue is vague buzzword.
. . . There are ways Trump 'could invade Mexico, Canada, or Greenland,
That could be legal per American law, certainly in the short,
Dependent on congress in the long.
. . .
Let's say America 'did invade Greenland,
Still not 'rogue maybe,
Enemy of Nato 'maybe, but not sure I'd say rogue nation.
International law is 'suggestion maybe.
. . .
SergeantLynch, What are some historical or now examples of Rogue Nations?
I don't consider Trump a rogue leader.
"USA has money and guns. Leadership of the world isn't a popularity contest." Shoresy
That is why USSR led it's satellite countries, yes,
Why America leads it's states and some outside countries. . . Though I'd argue a number of states and some controlled countries 'want to follow America for reasons other than America 'forcing them to.
Some nations though, I do not think America led by virtue of threat.
Europe 'freely let America have leading role I think?
. . . Course Leading is not 'same as Forcing.
If tiny weak country tried to lead, not force. It would not work out I think.
America has led (To a degree) not 'forced, because of power and influence, but that power and influence was not necessarily force.
. . .
Popularity 'is part of leadership, though not 'purely what makes up leadership.
A strict unliked teacher may control a classroom better than a nonstrict liked teacher.
But maybe a strict liked teacher controls classroom better than a strict unliked teacher.
Great generals sometimes inspired their soldiers by how much the soldiers loved their general.
. . But competence is important, maybe key.
. . .
Sometimes people liking you is due to what you can give them, what you gave them,
. . . Though is it the 'liking why they follow, or the trade?
Liking is result sometimes, of successful leadership.
To be 'disliked, sometimes implies failure in leadership.
I'd figure it 'is easier to stick with one platform.
. . . Though one might reach more people by using as many platforms as possible?
While I have read 'some history,
I'm not very 'well read.
. . . Leader of the Free World. . .
I'm not very well read on that idea for instance, cooperation between nations, the UN, international currency.
I recall that the French still wanted Vietnam as their colony for a while after WW2, but it didn't work out for them,
Britain had that Falklands War,
Dollar is common world currency,
USSR fell at some point. . .
Countries helped us with out ill planned Iraq war after 911.
. . .
What 'makes/made us leader of the free world?
I assume lot of other power just receded a bit after WW2, felt like focusing more on themselves and rebuilding.
America not 'so much world leader, as just happen to be only person 'out there.
Countries shrug and use us as cats paw, fund us, support us, trade back and forth.
Big seat at UN with some other countries, Veto powers.
Hm, countries with nukes.
Lesser countries letting us 'lead, just because they are trying to catch up.
China succeeded in catching up.
Others like Middle East 'wanted to catch up, Shah of Iran, Gaddafi, Sadam.
. . . Just because countries let person 'speak, give him stuff, or watch them move about,
Does this mean they are leader?
I am unsure. Am relatively young, born 1993.
. . .
Sidewalker, what made US Leader of the Free World?
. . . Hm, Leader of the FREE World, eh, we've long had shady actions in opposing free societies for money and ideology against Communism, even Communism freely chosen.
False Flag Gulf of Tonkin.
(Shrug) America is still a free nation, perhaps many doomsayers will see this better when Trump finishes his second term and does not have a third.
America is still big on individual freedom,
The people vote freely.
I love it when people have YouTube content they've produced in their profile.
Makes it easier for me to gauge them as a person.
I wonder. . .
If two American citizens gave up their citizenship, traveled to a country with laws allowing duels, or perhaps the high seas and dueled to the death.
Then the winner returned to America and re acquired their citizenship,
Could they be legally charged with anything?