Apocalypse Mafia - DP3

Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/26/2026 at 8:29 PM (post #38)

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/26/2026 at 6:11 PM (post #12)

Well I was hoping for some solid results last night, but nothing. I am Nuclear War, MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction). I am the cop. Justification is all about deterrence cold war era doctrine that says if 1 party uses nukes, the other will retaliate in kind and both parties will be destroyed. Maintaining nuclear deterrence depended on intelligence, early warning systems, and the ability to identify an enemy's actions before responses were made which is why I am cop. Thought the justification was kind of a stretch at first until I seen other people's justifications lol.

Night One I investigated Whiteflame, Night Two I investigated Kohai.

Both are innocent.

I am going to assume mafia have some sort of counter to Cop, so take these with a grain of salt.

Why did you choose WF and Kohai each night

https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/89/apocalypse-mafia---dp3?comment_number=29

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/26/2026 at 4:22 PM (post #6)

Alright, cards on the table:

My role is called a Contact Counter. The way it works is that I target someone, and I get a count for the number of people who are in their contact chain. My visit counts towards that chain. So, for example, if I used it on myself and no one targeted me, it's a chain of 1. If I used it on someone else who didn't visit anyone, it's a chain of 2. If my target does visit someone, it's a chain of 3. I got a whole list of possible results based on various interactions after asking several questions of Bullish, so if people want to know them, I can go through it.

The long and short of it: I used my night actions on Kohai NP1 and Vader NP2. I chose two players who claimed roles that did not visit, since picking a target who did visit someone else would just confirm that they had visited someone, not who they visited or why. Both Kohai and Vader had chains of two, meaning that, absent any fuckery, I confirmed that Kohai did not visit anyone NP1 and Vader did not visit anyone NP2.

What is the justification between character and role?

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/26/2026 at 9:31 PM (post #54)

Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/26/2026 at 10:57 PM (post #51)

What’s your justification

Ice-IX functions by seeding, transforming sources of water or ice into Ice-IX (which has a way higher melting temperature than normal ice). Effectively, because it literally comes into contact with water molecules and spreads along that path, I am the contact counter.

NVM found it

Got questions for all of yall.

Pie:

If you're town, who are the two scum right now, and why? I want an actual pairing, not just a POE.

If someone else, say me, was in your shoes and asked someone who visited them np1, would you be suspicious of them?

Kohai:

I am not sure I am a fan of how easily you are using results to clear yourself. If you think there's a GF/Lawyer, who do you think it is and why? If pie and me were both to exist in this game, you have to admit that increases the likelihood of one of these roles existing. I would say you look best from whiteflames result, assuming he's not just scum with you.

You went from considering Pie/Vader to basically saying it's exactly Pie/Vader if Whiteflame isn't GF. What specifically makes Vader more likely than Pie's other possible partners?I

If Pie flips scum, what do you think his relationship with you looks like in hindsight? I'm particularly interested in your lack of a stronger reaction to his early pressure.

Whiteflame:

Out of Pie/Vader, Pie/Kohai, and Vader/Kohai, which team do you think is most likely right now?

Do you think Kohai is actually town, or are you just saying his two checks make him difficult to lynch? Those aren't quite the same thing.

Vader:

You seem pretty locked into Pie/Kohai. What's the strongest piece of evidence for that pairing in your opinion?

If Kohai is actually town because of my result, who is your second scum alongside Pie?

What is your full scope of whiteflame? It seems as if you have accepted him as town, am I wrong in that assumption?

That's all for now.

Whiteflame: 

Out of Pie/Vader, Pie/Kohai, and Vader/Kohai, which team do you think is most likely right now?

Do you think Kohai is actually town, or are you just saying his two checks make him difficult to lynch? Those aren't quite the same thing.

If I had to pick right now, it would probably be Pie/Vader. That in part comes down to an assumption about the role I think scum were given as a fake claim. I don’t see that being either Tree Stump or Dreamer. It’s possible scum just received a character, in which case that goes out the window.

There’s too many investigatives. Between you, me, Banana and Pie, that’s 4 and I don’t buy it. I do have some trouble buying that Pie would go to the lengths he did of saying that his Dreamer role supports the existence of a Miller knowing that his flip would make Vader sus, but it’s possible he was just banking on winning the game right here. The “validation” of his Dreamer role hasn’t struck me as particularly convincing. He’s played it such that he has had no risk of claiming he got results with a visit, and the whole “I was visited” line from last DP could easily have just been a shot in the dark aimed at either getting a claim (which he did) or appealing to an unknown scum visit.

And in answer to your last question, I’d say it’s that it makes him difficult to lynch. It’s always possible he’s just the GF and didn’t carry out the NK NP1, or that scum manipulated my night action to make it look like he hadn’t done anything, or any number of other possibilities that could explain those results. Given it’s either him or Vader and the latter at least has a role that makes sense to be in the game given either your or Pie’s role, it’s something I have to consider.

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/27/2026 at 6:35 AM (post #65)

Whiteflame: 

Out of Pie/Vader, Pie/Kohai, and Vader/Kohai, which team do you think is most likely right now?

Do you think Kohai is actually town, or are you just saying his two checks make him difficult to lynch? Those aren't quite the same thing.

If I had to pick right now, it would probably be Pie/Vader. That in part comes down to an assumption about the role I think scum were given as a fake claim. I don’t see that being either Tree Stump or Dreamer. It’s possible scum just received a character, in which case that goes out the window.

There’s too many investigatives. Between you, me, Banana and Pie, that’s 4 and I don’t buy it. I do have some trouble buying that Pie would go to the lengths he did of saying that his Dreamer role supports the existence of a Miller knowing that his flip would make Vader sus, but it’s possible he was just banking on winning the game right here. The “validation” of his Dreamer role hasn’t struck me as particularly convincing. He’s played it such that he has had no risk of claiming he got results with a visit, and the whole “I was visited” line from last DP could easily have just been a shot in the dark aimed at either getting a claim (which he did) or appealing to an unknown scum visit.

And in answer to your last question, I’d say it’s that it makes him difficult to lynch. It’s always possible he’s just the GF and didn’t carry out the NK NP1, or that scum manipulated my night action to make it look like he hadn’t done anything, or any number of other possibilities that could explain those results. Given it’s either him or Vader and the latter at least has a role that makes sense to be in the game given either your or Pie’s role, it’s something I have to consider.

Awesome thanks for the answers.

Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/26/2026 at 9:55 PM (post #49)

WF’s Ice-IX from Cat’s Cradle stands out to me. That character + their role sticks out like a sore thumb among the players who’ve claimed and flipped

Hold on. His claim is basically a Tracker. Think about it. If he tracks someone to no one, it’s a 2. If he tracks someone to someone else it’s a 3.

Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/26/2026 at 10:34 PM (post #56)

My biggest fear is still a Luna / wf team. Noting from mag1c’s flip

Jesus - (Jesus is known for curing lepers through miracles, but not for spotting traitors. You are the doctor.)

I wonder if one of tbe other gods would have e been the cop

I was thinking the same thing. Athena makes so much sense as the Cop. And even if Mag1c didn’t choose Cop, we have my Dreamer that could sort stuff out. We just got unlucky that Mag1c visited me.

Also the fact that BOTH WF/Luna cleared you is interesting

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/27/2026 at 2:36 AM (post #59)

Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/26/2026 at 8:21 PM (post #35)

Character: AI Takeover

Role: Dreamer

Justification: Bullish says he loves his AI overlords. AI is super smart and basically knows everything but still can be very wrong. This Dreamer.

Assuming I’m not visited, I will receive a list of 3 names, at least one of which is scum. Bullish mentioned that my ability is affected by modifiers such as Miller and Godfather.

I asked him how the modifier would even work. He said this (paraphrased): he will take one player who inherently investigates guilty then he will randomly take 2 other names from remaining pool.

Thats how I knew I was visited NP1. I received a list of 3 names last night: Luna, Vader, Whiteflame.

Yeah I did suspect you would claim dreamer. I am not a fan of how you handled your role though, like at all. I still struggle to wrap my mind around why a dreamer would claim they were visited, that made it obvious what you were early and that mafia were just okay with you living despite you making it obvious what you were. Not to mention the overlap there is between a cop and dreamer on investigation power.

It doesn’t tell them much to leave me alive going into LYLO. I also don’t think they thought I was dreamer especially considering how I said a Miller made sense. Why would a Dreamer say that.

If you are town though, mafia will 100% have an answer to this, I guess miller is accounted for, but I wouldn't be surprised at all about a godfather or lawyer/framer.

They definitely have some visiting role. No question.

I just had a thought. If you were a wolf, then you would always include me in your fake dream.

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/27/2026 at 2:38 AM (post #60)

Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/26/2026 at 8:23 PM (post #36)

From my POV, it’s not Vader because Bullish specifically mentioned Miller in my PM. And with my Dream, it means that it’s EXACTLY Luna/WF or Luna/WF + Kohai, but the odds of Kohai being scum are the highest statistically

Can you explain the kohai part better? My brain is not understanding how you are arriving there...

Bullish said that he chooses someone that is guilty as one person, and the rest are randomized. If Kohai is town, that means exactly you + WF are scum. Cause Vader investigates guilty. But more likely, the odds are 50/50 that one of you is scum, and that leaves Kohai as scum.

Did anyone here not pick up on pie being dreamer? Be honest lol

It doesn’t tell them much to leave me alive going into LYLO. I also don’t think they thought I was dreamer especially considering how I said a Miller made sense. Why would a Dreamer say that.

Why would anything other than a dreamer know about being visited and also have something where a miller could effect it?

Bullish said that he chooses someone that is guilty as one person, and the rest are randomized. If Kohai is town, that means exactly you + WF are scum. Cause Vader investigates guilty. But more likely, the odds are 50/50 that one of you is scum, and that leaves Kohai as scum.

Doesn't that mean both scum can be on your results?

Yeah. I’m strongly feeling a wf / Luna team.

Wf’s claim sticks out like a sore thumb

W!Pie always includes me in the dream for an easy ML

Lunatic’s cop claim: One of the gods Mag1c didn’t pick was more likely to be the cop especially given the wording of the flip

Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/27/2026 at 11:14 AM (post #70)

I just had a thought. If you were a wolf, then you would always include me in your fake dream.

Probably. No offense, but you’re easy to mislynch.

Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/27/2026 at 12:11 PM (post #68)

Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/26/2026 at 10:34 PM (post #56)

My biggest fear is still a Luna / wf team. Noting from mag1c’s flip

Jesus - (Jesus is known for curing lepers through miracles, but not for spotting traitors. You are the doctor.)

I wonder if one of tbe other gods would have e been the cop

I was thinking the same thing. Athena makes so much sense as the Cop. And even if Mag1c didn’t choose Cop, we have my Dreamer that could sort stuff out. We just got unlucky that Mag1c visited me.

Also the fact that BOTH WF/Luna cleared you is interesting

This. 1000% this.

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/27/2026 at 11:26 AM (post #73)

It doesn’t tell them much to leave me alive going into LYLO. I also don’t think they thought I was dreamer especially considering how I said a Miller made sense. Why would a Dreamer say that.

Why would anything other than a dreamer know about being visited and also have something where a miller could effect it?

Dreamers usually don’t interact with Millers. I’ve never seen it interact with a Miller.

Bullish said that he chooses someone that is guilty as one person, and the rest are randomized. If Kohai is town, that means exactly you + WF are scum. Cause Vader investigates guilty. But more likely, the odds are 50/50 that one of you is scum, and that leaves Kohai as scum.

Doesn't that mean both scum can be on your results?

Yes, and I’m strongly considering it.

Got questions for all of yall.

Pie: 

If you're town, who are the two scum right now, and why? I want an actual pairing, not just a POE.

Right now, I’m 85% on WF being scum. My top scumread. Vader I buy as town. That leaves you and Kohai. Right now it’s 65-35 you vs Kohai as second scum. Kohai made a great point about the way the PM was written + Athena makes perfect sense as Cop vs you. My Dreamer is hella weak to begin with considering Millers can be on there.

If someone else, say me, was in your shoes and asked someone who visited them np1, would you be suspicious of them?

For you, it would be NAI. You’d do it as scum and town. Everyone else is on spectrum, but closer to town read.

Responding to your question. I’m on mobile so my phone might quote this stupidly but will answer

Vader: 

You seem pretty locked into Pie/Kohai. What's the strongest piece of evidence for that pairing in your opinion?

It’s a simple POE but I am the Miller. You are a cop. To me that’s a direct 1 of 1 balance that role so in my view you are town. I am not locked but I have to look at every option on the table here. I am honestly not even set on Pie tbh because of that specific miller clause but even then that seems really weird for a game like this.

If Kohai is actually town because of my result, who is your second scum alongside Pie?

I honestly don’t really know to be honest. I had you town but I would have to reevaluate. I think default would be Whiteflame but I wouldn’t even consider that a lock. I think I honestly would have you or Pie and then Whiteflame. I’d have to consider everything to that point but I wouldn’t even likely more consider Pie/whiteflame. But I wouldn’t rule you out either because I have noticed a lot of the roles had some funky / buffers

What is your full scope of whiteflame? It seems as if you have accepted him as town, am I wrong in that assumption?

No. You are wrong but not totally wrong. I think he is town but it’s not strong. I think if really wanted to end this game quickly as scum with his role, the most optimal meta was to fake a result on me to generate a mislynch. It obviously would have put us at odds and 1v1 but in MYLO situation it would’ve probably swung the vote to me and mafia would win in m!Whiteflame. It is kinda assuming reasoning but it gives me reason to believe Whiteflame is town. Behaviorally, I don’t see anything that’s truly setting my radars off with Whiteflame but I always fine super hard to read

I think the dead giveaway for WF being scum is that he’s specifically calling a Pie + Vader team. That implies that he believes Kohai AND Luna are town. If Luna is town, it makes sense to have a Miller in the game.

Here, he’s specifically calling it out as fake. This is a problem for him though. If Miller was the fake claim, I either SOP it immediately or make my partner do it. If Kiggans was my partner, I would’ve told him to SOP it. Makes it far more believable. But he didn’t, Vader2 did at the end. And I think everyone had also said something in DP1 before Kiggans even came on, so I would’ve told him to take Miller immediately.

I also promised I would do wagonomics. Look at DP1:

Official Vote Count

vader (4/5) - Banana, Thoth, lunatic, Kohai

Kohai (4/5) - Pie, whiteflame, magic, Vader

Not voting: JenKiggans,

Luna and WF split on each wagon. Lends more credence to Luna/WF.

Read my theory about Mag1c having the Cop with Athena and Kohai’s reading of Mag1c’s PM. It’s really telling.

Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/27/2026 at 12:51 PM (post #81)

Read my theory about Mag1c having the Cop with Athena and Kohai’s reading of Mag1c’s PM. It’s really telling.

This theory honestly makes the most sense

Also, WF from ur POV can’t be town because he’s putting you + Pie as his scum team. That means he buys Luna as Cop but doesn’t buy you as Miller. It makes zero sense

Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/27/2026 at 1:07 PM (post #83)

Also, WF from ur POV can’t be town because he’s putting you + Pie as his scum team. That means he buys Luna as Cop but doesn’t buy you as Miller. It makes zero sense

*^^

So, I have a lot of thoughts and I don't expect to get them out in a single post. I'm going to get out what I can now and come back to this later when I have a little more time and can respond.

To start, I want to note just how odd Pie's justification is. Honestly, when I first read he was the Dreamer, I half expected the justification to be some reference to Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? by Philip K. Dick. But what we got is stranger.

He's the only one with an element of his justification that is a stated opinion of the mod (he says "Bullish says he loves his AI overlords), says it includes that AI is smart, and therefore... it's the Dreamer?

I get that we're functioning under the assumption that there are roles in play, particularly the Miller, that could affect their results, but Dreamer doesn't scream a "smart" role and that would mean that Bullish literally wrote into the role that there are roles in game that can deceive it. It's literally a part of his justification. Has anyone ever seen a mod give away that kind of information solely to justify why a given character is a given role?

Apart from that, in terms of its use, Pie hasn't given us any reason to believe his role is true. He "knew" he was visited back in NP1. Setting aside the possibility of a scum role that registers visits or Tracks a target, neither are necessary for this to be believable. As I said before, he could have just lied about knowing. Doing so got exactly what scum wanted by effectively forcing a claim out of Mag1c. I know I wasn't the only one who was confused by the decision to push Mag1c to claim, but for some reason, we've brushed that under the table as unimportant. Shocker, our claimed Doctor is now dead.

As for his list of 3 this DP (which he only gave after everyone else had already claimed, so there was no chance he'd been visited, despite having heavily implied that he's the Dreamer), it's not particularly surprising to me. Both Luna and I have claimed investigative roles. Both put the Dreamer in question, especially with Banana's flip. Placing attention on us makes nothing but sense at this point since the decision almost necessarily comes down to which of the three of us is lying. Given repeated green checks on Kohai from both Luna and me, I don't think it's nearly as valuable as Kohai believes to include him in the Dream result.

Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/27/2026 at 10:34 AM (post #74)

Yeah. I’m strongly feeling a wf / Luna team.

Wf’s claim sticks out like a sore thumb

W!Pie always includes me in the dream for an easy ML

Lunatic’s cop claim: One of the gods Mag1c didn’t pick was more likely to be the cop especially given the wording of the flip

What specific wording? You think an entire miller was made around the potential for a 1x cop?

Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/27/2026 at 10:37 AM (post #77)

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/27/2026 at 11:26 AM (post #73)

It doesn’t tell them much to leave me alive going into LYLO. I also don’t think they thought I was dreamer especially considering how I said a Miller made sense. Why would a Dreamer say that.

Why would anything other than a dreamer know about being visited and also have something where a miller could effect it?

Dreamers usually don’t interact with Millers. I’ve never seen it interact with a Miller.

So then what were your talking about when you said the miller made sense with you?

So kohai pie scum team looking like?

Regarding the case that Athena was somehow a Cop pick from that list, recall that Mag1c was the sole protective role in this game. By this logic, based on a single line of text about "spotting traitors," we change the balance of the game dramatically based on Mag1c's NP0 decision. Town loses its protective role if he chooses Athena, trading it for multiple alignment investigative roles (either with Luna or with Pie, depending on who you believe). That's a big shift to assume based on a single sentence of flavor text.

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/27/2026 at 12:30 PM (post #85)

So, I have a lot of thoughts and I don't expect to get them out in a single post. I'm going to get out what I can now and come back to this later when I have a little more time and can respond.

To start, I want to note just how odd Pie's justification is. Honestly, when I first read he was the Dreamer, I half expected the justification to be some reference to Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? by Philip K. Dick. But what we got is stranger.

No, it says I’m smart but make mistakes. You’re the book, not me.

He's the only one with an element of his justification that is a stated opinion of the mod (he says "Bullish says he loves his AI overlords), says it includes that AI is smart, and therefore... it's the Dreamer?

You’re conveniently forgetting the other piece.

I get that we're functioning under the assumption that there are roles in play, particularly the Miller, that could affect their results, but Dreamer doesn't scream a "smart" role and that would mean that Bullish literally wrote into the role that there are roles in game that can deceive it. It's literally a part of his justification. Has anyone ever seen a mod give away that kind of information solely to justify why a given character is a given role?

I’ve been consistent since last DP that there’s a reason why I believed Vader was town, and it has to do with my PM.

Apart from that, in terms of its use, Pie hasn't given us any reason to believe his role is true. He "knew" he was visited back in NP1. Setting aside the possibility of a scum role that registers visits or Tracks a target, neither are necessary for this to be believable. As I said before, he could have just lied about knowing. Doing so got exactly what scum wanted by effectively forcing a claim out of Mag1c. I know I wasn't the only one who was confused by the decision to push Mag1c to claim, but for some reason, we've brushed that under the table as unimportant. Shocker, our claimed Doctor is now dead.

I’ve already explained this multiple times. It was a reaction test and a way to identify scum immediately. Mag1c being Doctor obviously sucked, but he was town, and I seem to recall both you and Luna still sussing him.

As for his list of 3 this DP (which he only gave after everyone else had already claimed, so there was no chance he'd been visited, despite having heavily implied that he's the Dreamer), it's not particularly surprising to me. Both Luna and I have claimed investigative roles. Both put the Dreamer in question, especially with Banana's flip. Placing attention on us makes nothing but sense at this point since the decision almost necessarily comes down to which of the three of us is lying. Given repeated green checks on Kohai from both Luna and me, I don't think it's nearly as valuable as Kohai believes to include him in the Dream result.

You’re calling Luna town with your role + Banana’s role which is the strongest combination of the 4 roles we have. My role is the weakest out of all 4.