Idk, elevating it to an 'argument' feels like it gives things more weight than it merits. I'd call it more of a 'group roasting session'.
Idk, elevating it to an 'argument' feels like it gives things more weight than it merits. I'd call it more of a 'group roasting session'.
None of those studies has researchers actually kill themselves so they can see first hand if consciousness ends. They are assuming it.
I can actually show you a study where the researchers dies and comes back and then talks about what happens to consciousness and that study is called the Bible and the reaearcher is my lord and Savior Jesus Christ
This is actually a hilarious response. 10/10, no notes
Good bot.
Focus on the successful cases. They are the ones that count. The others were miserable anyways.
No because people who object to giving people GAC are going to point to the cases where it didn't help, so it's important to acknowledge and address them while reminding them that the cases where people de-transition are very much in the minority. And even for those people who it is the solution for, it might not always be the correct choice to make in the moment (trying to take HRT in a hostile home environment, for example, is asking for trauma). But for people who have seriously spent time considering this and the implications of what their life would likely look like if they were to follow it, it is very much an option that should be available.
My parents were retards who have given birth to one of most intelligent persons in my country's history, only to ruin him completely, and turn him into a Machiavelli mindset who doesnt even care for his own health or anything. Retarded parents are capable to ruin even the best of humans.
The complete lack of self awareness that it takes to actually type this out and hit 'post' is mind-boggling.
I love how smoking 3 times a day is your idea of restraint.
I mean, if we're operating under the assumption that we're smoking regardless, then setting limits on how much/how often we smoke seems to fit the criteria for restraint.
My roommate (who is bi) assures me that bears are very cuddly.
Or you could just, y'know, exercise some restraint and spread out 2-3 cigarettes throughout the day.
But whatever floats your boat.
Jean Beaudrillard, is that you?
I guess to be more specific, I would say that 3 is really just 1 in a trench coat.
Wylted, I would encourage you to pause and critically think for a moment. We are talking about issues that are very specific to the transgender space. You are talking to a person who is transgender, has interacted with a wide variety of people who are also transgender, has talked to professionals who specialize in transgender issues, and has empirical studies to back up their points about said transgender-specific issues. I would ask that you don't just simply read what I'm saying and respond, but honestly consider that there might be merit to the things that I'm saying.
They aren't happier after getting surgery
That's been empirically shown to just not be reflective of reality. Virtually everyone who seeks gender affirming care is happier as a result, as shown by the studies of regret rates among those who have sought GAC.
if fact suicide rates go up significantly.
The fact that you're trying to link seeking GAC to an increase in suicide rates is borderline delusional and ignores the widespread discrimination that people who identify as transgender face in society. That's the reason that transgender people suffer from higher rates of depression/suicide - they've finally found an answer to their struggles and want to be happy for once in their lives, but are being told by wide swaths of society that they're wrong and are being barred from/discriminated against for trying to live their truth.
Not the way you are describing. The external feedback would come from attempting new things or putting yourself out there not finding support groups and going into echo chambers. You are more likely to find a sport you enjoy playing by playing a lot of sports than by thinking about what you would like to play.
Psychology has linked autism to an unstable sense of identity and this is irrespective of the transgender element
Agreed.
We can say the unstable sense of identity comes from introspection and then they get pointed to a solution and we all want our problems solved right?
I would argue that people who are autistic are inherently more prone to unstable shifts in identity regardless of how much or how little introspection they do, but I don't think you necessarily disagree with that. I'm also not sure what point you're trying to make.
Also the conversation is starting to conflate different areas so it may be best to disengage or to separate the conversation a bit because It could get confusing for both of us.
I don't feel like the conversation is getting confusing. Is there anything I've said that I can clarify on?
The first point I made referred to a portion of transgenderism unrelated to our only tangentially related to transgenderism that comes from our is largely influenced by an unsteady sense of identity.
Can you clarify this a bit? The grammar was...uhhh...challenging to parse through.
1. Self hatred
2. Sexual perversion
3. Confused gay kids being taken advantage of by an ideology
Now number 2 is not really a problem.
It very much is a problem, but not in the context that we're talking about (chasers very much do exist, as well as the fetishization of transgender identity. Both are extremely harmful to trans people), so I'm fine leaving this aside.
Number 1 had now went from being 80% is cases to maybe 40% . Number 2 went from 20% to 5% and this now leaves 55%
Do you have a source for these numbers?
So hopefully we can agree that one and two exist but that we are limiting the conversation to number 3 [Confused gay kids being takena advantage of by an ideology].
I categorically reject the phrasing you use to describe the issue, but yes that is the scope of our discussion.
Cool, dug into the link you provided as far as I can before I hit the inevitable pay wall. And yeah, I think you're missing a couple key points of the stuff you were reading.
That sort of introspection is actually likely the cause of them feeling no sense of identity and being sold a solution. Oddly enough studies do show that deep introspection is more likely to result in a less stable sense of identity, higher rates of depression and people not knowing themselves as well.
This makes sense while simultaneously not being the affirmation you want it to be. When we're self-reflecting internally, we're asking ourselves questions that challenge the assumptions we've been living our lives on. That's inherently going to make things less stable in the short term. If ALL you're doing is asking these questions, then you're correct in that it's not very healthy. The way out of that negative feedback loop, which is supported by the literature you provided, is to also seek external feedback, whether that's in the form of therapy or just finding people who have similar lived experiences as you and talking about it and what they did to fix these issues long term (for me it was both).
Studies find that those who are less likely to utilize introspection have a stronger sense of identity and actually know themselves better than those who think deeply about themselves.
I don't think that's what the link you provided is saying...at all.
I trained myself to switch any why question to a "what" question.
This is still a form of introspection. More specifically it's internal self-reflection, as stated by your sources, which is one of two key components to healthy self-reflection.
Linking this back to trans-related issues, the link between autism and gender dysphoria is there - autistic people are just generally more likely to be self-reflective and, for those who decide to seek GAC, shows why such a sizable percentage of people who are autistic identify as queer.
And to respond to the idea that transitioning is the solution they're 'sold', all studies seem to point to the fact that the opposite is actually more likely to be true - that transitioning isn't the solution to their feelings. Studies show that, at max, ~13% of people who seek GAC decide to detransition and that the overwhelming majority of people who decide to detransition's reasons aren't that they no longer identify as transgender, but rather external pressures that are forcing them to either temporarily or permanently stop seeking GAC (https://www.verywellhealth.com/trans-health-in-people-of-color-5087608?utm_source=chatgpt.com). The actual regret rates of people who were not happy after seeking GAC is wildly lower - the highest I found is like 3%, but most have it at at most 1% (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/41574245/) (https://apnews.com/article/transgender-treatment-regret-detransition-371e927ec6e7a24cd9c77b5371c6ba2b) (https://juliaserano.medium.com/spotting-anti-trans-media-bias-on-detransition-a9a782a46894). So it seems infinitely more likely that if transgender people are being sold on anything, it's that they're wrong for seeking help.
Studies find that those who are less likely to utilize introspection have a stronger sense of identity
I would be very interested in reading these studies. I haven't seen anything that says this and I can think of a number of problems that I would like to see if they accounted for.
it doesn't mean you will necessarily belong in exactly only one other alternative body.
Yeah, this pretty much just confirms it for me. No one's pushing narratives onto trans people, much less that there's specifically exactly one alternative to being cisgender. Even further beyond that, for those who do identify as transgender, there's an incredibly wide variety in what that exactly looks like (people who go on HRT vs. people who don't go on HRT, people who get corrective surgery vs. people who don't get corrective surgery, etc.).
The fact that you don't see and understand this suggests you're not engaging with the topic in good faith, which is sadly pretty typical.
I also fear and I don't know if it's true in your case that people, particularly autistic people do not have a strong sense of identity
No, anecdotally you are absolutely correct that it seems like there's a disproportionate amount of autistic people who identify as trans. And it made me curious so I did a little digging. And while the evidence is there that autistic people are more likely to identify as trans/nonbinary/genderfluid/etc. than autistic people (https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbeseq/2024/06/13/autistic-people-more-likely-to-identify-as-lgbtq/?utm_source=chatgpt.com), it still only accounts for ~10-15% of autistic people according to most studies done on it (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10803-024-06650-6?utm_source=chatgpt.com).
;And I think it's less about autistic people are being told that they're queer and instead that they're just more likely to be introspective about their own identity and less likely to care about social norms (i.e. I am born with penis/vagina, so I must be man/woman) (https://www.charliehealth.com/mental-health/neurodivergence/autism-and-gender-dysphoria).
to children who are unsure of their identity and seeing it promoted as opposed to merely accepted has been harmful to society.
There are a lot of responses to this line of thinking.
Developmental years are pretty critical to people forming a sense of self that we should be encouraging people to think carefully and critically about who they are. And as someone who spent 20+ years repressing feelings of not understanding who I was or feeling like I didn't belong in my own body, I fucking wish discourse around trans identity had been more prevalent when I was a teenager.
To be clear, I do still think there are legitimate reasons to be hesitant about more intensive forms of gender affirming care for minors. So I'm not against setting guidelines and restrictions to make it hard enough to disincentivize people who are seeking GAC for less than genuine reasons from wasting people's time. At the same time, it should also be realistically available for those who are genuine in their dysphoria to have access to it.
Personally, I find cats boring.
Shrug.
Your loss.
That's just, like, your opinion, man.
Personally I'm entertained by this interaction.
No, you validated the OP.
I mean, to directly quote the OP:
If I make a point they can't refute, then they insult me, "racist, xenophobe, creep, or something else" to maintain their sense of pride,
Sooo....were you insulted by me saying "lmao"...?
Thank you for validating the OP with the predicted response. So much for free will.
Are you implying that you got insulted by me saying "lmao"?
Lmao
trans rights
Unless you decided against trans rights...in which case:
Mhm. Just jealous of bears.
Oh you sweet summer child...bears do, in fact, use grindr.
even though the chances of you being that person are very very slim
Well considering that it's a drawing of a fantasy character that I've used in a D&D game, I would be concerned if you thought that there was any chance that my pfp was an image of me. The only similarities is general face shape and hair length, along with the desire that my hair was that shade of red (I'm a brunette but frequently dye my hair red).
The chances of you even being female is only 50/50.
...okay? I am, but I can't really stop you from believing otherwise, nor do I see why I need to prove my femininity to you.
This is so stupid. I would never be with woman of that age. Not because I find it morally wrong (I don't believe in morality), but because I generally have no logical interest in any women. I want to stay virgin so that I go to heaven as pure being.
Hello, Officer?
...
Yes, it's that post, right there.
I'unno. I just win my debates. That way it doesn't matter how long the window is.
bilirubic
Alright, you win. You've got the English major at a loss.
Dafuq does this mean? I legit can't find evidence that this is even a word.
Any MTG players on here? I'm typically looking for more people to play with over webcam (or in person if you're local to me!).
Should is the operative word. Most people never see artistic creations within the context of the corresponding zeitgeist of their creation.
It's sadly a very self-centered view, and thus extremely biased and unfair to the original content creator. If cancel culture taught us nothing, it's that blanket judgements out of temporal norms usually manufacture ill intentions and warped understandings.
This is so wildly outside the context of voting on an online debate on a forum board, and I don't have the energy tonight to get rage-baited by a second person.
The same applies to debates about current events: when people vote on a debate six months later, they inevitably will evaluate the arguments using hindsight and information that the debaters obviously did not have when the debate occurred. This creates outcome bias, where voters reward whoever happened to align with what later proved true rather than who made the strongest argument given the information available at the time, making the evaluation unfair to the participants who were reasoning within the limits of the information of the moment.
That's why the voting guidelines for this site exists, and the report vote feature exists to enforce them. After having read through them, I actually think this is the first of the three variants of this site (DDO, DART, and DebateCraft) that has actually encapsulated a scale of what makes a good vote good and a bad vote bad, and I like how the site makes reading them and taking a basic "did I comprehend what I just read" quiz a pre-requisite to vote on higher quality debates (Ultrarated).
As a coincidental aside, I just finished a debate on the current conflict in Iran.
https://www.debatecraft.com/debates/d/7o/was-killing-ayatollah-khameini-good-or-bad
It didn't end up being very good, but I got to crack some funny jokes at the end, so I'll take my feels-good's where I can get them.