Helz

Im going to put this as lightly as I can-

I do not even slightly understand how the town is handling this bullshit. You have Pie lying their ass off demanding information they do not need and acting like they are confirmed town with an argument that in no way confirms them and looking at lynching a claimed cop with a red check in a situation where town or scum has zero reason to make such a play. What the fuck are you guys smoking?

So part 2-

Now we have Pie claiming they are confirmed town because they were the actual guild owner. They demand a role claim from Rex as well as information on who is in their guild. Ehhh.. Lets unpack that

Is Pie confirmed town with their claim? I would say in no way. The best evidence is the lack of a counter claim. We know that their guild only got 1 recruit D1 and do not know who (if anyone) was recruited past then. We have not seen a single person step forward and claim that "Yes, Pie was the original guild owner" and absolutely nothing has been confirmed in the slightest. Yet now they are again pressuring the only revealed guild member to out their people and role because.... Uhh... Fucking why?

So I am going to say this as kindly as I can. I think the town is fucking stupid here. Lets unpack what happened logically-

We have Rex- A guild leader confirmed recruit to a guild. They voice a red check on Pie. Cool.

Pies response- Starts out with them demanding a full role claim voicing its necessary for their confirmed defence.

Then Pie evolves into "Well tell me if you told your guild mates who you would target! Its critical to my claim and I must know and there is no reason to hide it!"

Then Pie finally reveals. Oh shit- Their claim had absolutely nothing to do with Rex's role? The question of if the guild members of Rex's people knew checking them was a thing did not even have any bearing at all on their alignment claim or confirming that they are town? Hmmm. Interesting.

At this point Pie has utterly and completely lied. The question is why. Scum would obviously want a full role claim and to know who was recruited and unlocked town powers. Lets pause for a second before I ramble about the rest and consider this. That Pie absolutely lied demanding information they did not need acting like it somehow was critical to them being cleared and now it seems like its total bullshit.

Actually was having a life and out with some friends eating tacos on a Friday night. Caught up now though

My problem is that I do not know. I just saw a guild leader get smited for a direct response.

Past that I am thinking about what role could require what your asking and while lie detector comes to mind there is much more simple ways to use that.

the only angle I see here is your setting up to throw shade at Rex’s guild members and angling it as proof your innocent which I have played a number of mafia games with a comma and can’t think of how you would be hard town confirmed from knowing if Rex told their guild people about their action in advance

That’s the problem. Nobody knows what wild stuff exists And your doing nothing to justify wanting more information.

Im still confused at how you started with wanting a full role claim and now have evolved into wanting to know if Rex’s guild members knew their target. This is an inconsistent shift

Well honestly, it just seems like your setting up for a play that casts suspicion on his guild and will follow up with pushing to out who is in it which will tell the scum team who has active power roles in the town. I would call that 'harm' but thats just me.

(Starting to learn vb code does not work on this site..)

Better lie to do what? I’m telling you to lynch me TODAY if it’s not satisfactory

My entire thing is simply that it potentially causes harm to the town for Rex to claim. Outing guild members is a bad idea and harmful. Nailing down his PR is also a bad idea and harmful unless you want to argue that Rex is scum (which you are not.)

Im fine just parking my vote here as I get back to digging on other things and I do hope you are confirmable but I only see harm in having Rex claim a bunch of potentially harmful information. They put themselves out there as a revealed cop in a situation where it makes zero sense for a scum to do so. They have already painted a target on their back to push you. Demanding more of them is unreasonable for the moment imo.

[quote]helz as been strangely in rexs camp this whole time. he seems more invested in it than it than i would expect. that said its strange to me how quick hes willing to doubt that pie can confirm himself. he has been going out of his way to encourage patience from ppl but seems pretty eager to jump to conclusins now, i am not a big fan of that. before this whole thing i was town reading him, so maybe he just reallly believes pie is scum and its clouding his judgement, idk[/quote]

As scum I usually look for what value I can generate as I go down. If I can out some town TPR its better for my team. Thats what I am seeing here.

If Pie is something confirmable they should just confirm it. Demanding a full role claim in this situation is rather absurd. I do not see any world where that makes sense and I do not understand why people see it as a bad thing to require Pie to feed his info first.

I do se harm in requiring a claim from Rex. We out PR's and we feed a possible scum outs they can manipulate by knowing specifics on the claim against them.

Im really not sure how everyone is missing this simple issue. We risk harm to the town by demanding Rex to claim first and risk nothing by demanding Pie to claim first. If Pie is confirmable then he can simply show as much and we can move on.

If the host just evened up the odds that would be a very high level of bastard for this game. While I rather enjoy bastard games that is a degree I generally refuse to ever play. I dislike being punished for doing well in the spirit of 'keeping things even.'

Yeah, Everyone messing about with 20 nicknames kinda sucks to deal with. It would be nice if players made an effort to refer to other playerrs by their current account name instead of expecting every other player on the server to learn everyone's old name or nickname or irl name and all that.

[quote]I need the full facts. Prima facie I believe REF, but I need all the details[/quote]

Im catching up but you 10,000% absolutely do not need 'all the details.' You should be the one giving the details before Rex gives any. The only thing I see you being fed details about Rex doing is giving you room to craft a better lie. If you can prove yourself then you do not need details to do so.

This is the one bit that I am struggling with.

You keep speaking like you are in some position of power with leverage as you play with smoke and mirrors and act like you are not the one on trial here. You very simply are. And if you had a reason to play games and hide information that damns Rex or someone else you could do that.

I do not trust you and the situation has everything to do with you. Rex is not on trial imo. You are. And I very much doubt there is not a scum between You/Rex/Shining regardless but the way you are handling the situation looks very scummy to me.

Fair. Apparently my internet is doing things and I believe we have hit a point where more conversation is unproductive from my side. Others can look at the situation and weigh in as they see fit on either slot but independent of the poor town positioning in earlier day phases we are in a good situation for today with two strong options.

While I do agree and I have strongly avoided saying quite a bit this game I am also pointing out very simple contradictions.

'If' Pie can hard confirm why not clarify miller/redirection/movement?

'If' Pie does not think Rex is lying why demand their info first?

'If' Pie even suspected Rex why demand a full claim?

'If' Pie is all confirmable why demand info on what is known to their guild?

None of these factors make sense to me questioning if Pie is town while they all make sense for a scum play. Im calling them out to push for pressure that Pie outs information before demanding information thats potentially damaging to the town (and serves no purpose to solve Pie) for Rex to out.

I think the trains today should be ILovePie with the red check vs Shining with their awful role claim.

While I do agree and I have strongly avoided saying quite a bit this game I am also pointing out very simple contradictions.

'If' Pie can hard confirm why not clarify miller/redirection/movement?

'If' Pie does not think Rex is lying why demand their info first?

'If' Pie even suspected Rex why demand a full claim?

'If' Pie is all confirmable why demand info on what is known to their guild?

None of these factors make sense to me questioning if Pie is town while they all make sense for a scum play. Im calling them out to push for pressure that Pie outs information before demanding information thats potentially damaging to the town (and serves no purpose to solve Pie) for Rex to out.

I think the trains today should be ILovePie vs Shining with their awful role claim.

If they are so confirmable town they are free to do so before days end and all but man.. They are doing some weird bullshit if they are that I do not understand the logic of and they are not doing much to explain if I am just the stupid one here missing something.

My entire issue centers around the fact I can not place myself in Pies shoes and understand a town motive.

They feel they can prove themselves. Ok.. sure? But why refuse to reveal bits of information that nail down their potential of defense if they are this totally confirmable townie?

Then there is demanding a full claim from Rex. Why a full claim? Why not specifically ask for the information about the peek? It would slightly make sense if they thought Rex was lying but they have openly said they do not. This is a very weird stance that also does not make sense for town.

Now they are going after Rex's guild members. What would that possibly have to do with them if they are some confirmed townie that can prove themselves? The only thing that does is shade the potential that they were framed in some way.

To be blunt I am not able to put myself in their shoes and say "As town this makes sense to do" in multiple respects. While I can place myself in their shoes and say "As scum this absolutely makes sense"

Thats my take.

What I am trying to avoid is the basic line of a player claiming a red check. Then Pie demanding specifics so they can go "Oh, well your alignment cop is wrong because I have a miller function" or "Your tracker result is wrong because I was swapped last night" etc.

Pie directly claiming if they visited and who at the very least is a step in the right direction. I am not even asking what they did or what their role is.

Im obviously trying to get you to clarify if you have any reason to believe that an alignment cop result would be altered because of whatever you are or if a tracker/detective/motion detector/ anything else looking at movement has a reason to be wrong.

Confirming you do not have any reason to believe so now before Rex reveals narrows down the potential defenses you could have post claim which is what I am looking for.

I am fine with looking silly. I get shit wrong all the time.

But here is the thing- 'If' you are town there is absolutely zero reason you can not come out and say "I am not a miller" and "I did not get feedback that I was witched or bussed"

I can at least see reasoning to avoid confirming if you visited and who you visited. But you avoiding confirming those two factors just looks scummy as fuck to me. I do not see any world where town would not own up to that and as this drags on you look worse and worse to me.

The problem is that I do not trust you. I have no reason to.

Explain to me why it possibly makes sense for Rex to reveal information instead of you revealing information first?

Rex has no motive to lie about you while you have every reason in the world to lie about your situation and wait to discover exactly what you need to lie about. You stalling is just keeping your options open which makes sense. But I am nailing that down and pushing the town to see exactly what you are up to if you are scum.

I am trying to slow walk the information needed to solve in case this is a TvT situation but if you do not claim I am 100% down to see you swing. There is no harm in you confirming if you are not miller and if you were not bussed and if you did visit a specific player or not. If you have something damning you can reveal to shove Rex lets unpack that after you clarify your mech or give a damn good reason that they should claim first.

"Trust me" is not a valid response that will be considered.

Well I thought about arguing some bits with you on the subject of D1 hunting but if you think its worthless whatever. I think there is a lot players can do that day specifically thats less effective in later days. Does not matter either way.

I am very specifically interested in your takes on Shining's awful role claim and Pie's odd demand for Rex to be the one to reveal information first.

I really think people should focus on this specific aspect of ILikePie's reaction to Rex's claim-

They believe Rex is not lying. Yet they want the person they do not think is lying to give a full claim before they so much as reveal if they visited / who they visited. Those two concepts do not logically add up. They would add up 'if' Pie thought Rex was scum faking a claim. But they do not.

While at the same time they have motive if scum in nailing down exactly what the information against them is so they can counter it. I strongly feel Pie should be revealing some bits of information before Rex. To be specific-

1- Who did Pie Visit if anyone (no need to claim action type yet)

2- Does Pie have any sort of Miller function

3- Was Pie told they were bussed or anything of the sort

Pie should clarify these things before Rex gives more information imo.

You are correct I have not explained.

Let me unpack this for you-

There are far too many town and (at best) 3 wolves at this point. Getting you killed means nothing and a wolf trading their life for a town is an awful trade for their team.

Would Rex lie about a claim to create a counter train to Shining? Again why? What possible scum motive is there? They divert the train off Shining and then we bag two wolves in the next day/night cycles? That makes no sense.

Then there is the fact that you do not even think they are lying but you want them to do a full role claim. Thats not just asking for them to clarify their peek on you- you want a FULL role claim from a slot that you do not even think is lying. Why? Explain your motive here. It makes no sense as town and the only thing I see it accomplishing is allowing you to maneuver around the known details while also revealing exact information about a town power role.

I am really not sure whats in your head outside of seeing your play right now as blatantly scummy. I am not even demanding a full role claim from you. I do very much think you should explain what you are thinking with this "Rex must give a full role claim" nonsense and that you should clarify your visitation prior to Rex revealing more about the check on you.

The problem I have is that prior to them revealing some guilty on you I suspected you from analysis. While Rex feels more likely town than scum.

Is there a reason you can not simply nail yourself down to a claim of who you visited? Does it conflict with you proving your innocence?

To be blunt Rex does not have a reason to out themselves and lie. This is no sort of Lylo so them flipping a town would just screw their chances if scum. There simply is not a motive for them to lie imo.

You do have a reason to lie. Its that simple so I feel we should get information from you prior to getting information from Rex.

I would say that is excellent. Fits your initial reaction.

I have no idea if you were visited or not. But I think you should clarify that before waiting to hear if thats what caught you so you can identify exactly whats known about you and counter the information.

Thats the thing in catching people in a lie. When someone lies they try to find out what people know about them before they make their story. I want you to give your story before whats known about you is clarified.

This is interesting. Prior to them clarifying what type of cop and why they think you are guilty I think you should provide more info first. Who did you visit last night and why?

So some thoughts-

I would be interested in hearing from anyone who does not see Shinings role claim as extremely weak compared to what they got to the point it sounds really fake.

The push on Awesome's role card is just 2 kinds of bad imo. Before considering how angleshooty it is, dudes a replacement and host has confirmed issues with pictures came up after game started. That all adds up. While I do suspect them I also think that line of thinking should be killed with fire and left to rot.

I have been chewing on the lost wolf potential and all that. I specifically remember Thoth voicing that they were a backup to Jim Woo or whatever. While that turned out to be bullshit I believe it did draw from them knowing such a function existed in the game. This would reflect someone on their team having such a mechanic -or- potentially the team itself being informed such a mechanic exists.

Then Thoth also reported having a list of 3 players who might be Jim Woo. Very strange line to take to the point I felt there must be some truth to it. While their purported list is very likely bullshit that would line up with their team actually being given a list of people potentially being the one that evolves into the ant king. As we get more flips could be worth looking at positions between flipped mafia to see who they universally avoided pushing prior to D3.

Then there is the 1 kill at night + the one poisoning ending up coming from the flipped Mafia Alyssa. So no 3rd party kpn? Only 4 Mafia? It would make sense for there to be an evolving lost wolf 3p. Potential that it could simply be a wolf that evolves into something stronger but if thats the case the rat king or whatever will need to be one very strong role balance wise.