I am very critical of this specifically. One of the things I have not directly called out about them but there is MASSIVE benefit for scum to know who was recruited and has activated abilities. Its between poor town play and absolute opportunistic scum play to pressure wylted for their recruitments. We should lock down public knowledge of these factors until we are in the mid/late game with a blatant cost/benefit evaluation of such knowledge being public.
Very interesting. You are poking my bias as there is more about Alyssa than I have voiced yet but I will give you credit with me opening the door to a hard OMGUS argument you instead focused on perceived pocket attempt. Either high level play as scum here or very genuine town indicator. I think you are more likely town until I understand your range as a player.
I get you. Im really not offended in any way. You picked up on odd posting style which I certainly do have a totally contrived way of articulating points and I get why you grabbed onto it.
Sorry for your struggles. Sounds like we are in the same boat. We can unpack this later out of game if you would like but I appreciate that you have an associated issue. I can unpack how mine has effected me but I am not sure how productive that is to do in the game thread unless you feel my writing style is Alignment Indictive. I do have some need to be transparent to you as a player viewing you as confirmed town.
Too bad. In my Mafia chat we were hoping to buddy you as we fill our bellys with the delicious elderly and children of this town.
On a less silly note- What do you think of the push on you? If you had to pick someone who do you think is pushing in bad faith?
So I fully expect 3p to be in the game. Can you reveal if you are such? Town can totally work with a 3p that does not have an opposing win condition but its very interesting you have this modification to recruiting.
Well to be honest my read of the setup is that every single player is a PR and they just get activated by joining a guild if they require that with some that do not.
If Mafia did not read what I said about why I rejected a guild invite they are just stupid. I did not reveal much of anything in that post I have not already said.
Noted that apparently your flavor aligns with what you can do though. Just saying this publicly so Mafia does not have an edge there if you do claim given team scum generally pick up on more than town players.
Looking at what I can do I do not see it. No worries.
If thats the case I say we drop the subject. Its a waste of time and bloating the thread with players struggling to participate in a game larger than they are use to. If any of you give a shit I am Yoo Jinhoo. Apparently I am a cowardly rich boy that ends up running a guild or something?
Lets get to more productive conversation if thats useless imo.
I still do not understand why we are treating flavor as AI. I do not know the series. I hate AI flavor as a function in games but I have yet to hear from anyone that its some kinda norm here that bad alignments get bad flavor characters and such.
Lets just mass claim if there is some AI bullshit to it or lets get away from this absurd tangent that has no value to solving if that is the case.
I do love role madness.
I quite honestly hate when flavor is AI. If it was hard AI right now we could force a mass flavor claim and likely nail a scum with it. Even if they were champion level players just them not knowing the show could get them killed which would kinda be bullshit.
While I am not opposed to pressing such an advantage I do not like that it may exist in the slightest.
Noted. I do not know the meta here at all.
While you are here if I could pick your mind on the subject of flavor. I am seeing a lot of demands for people to claim who they are as the character in the game. I generally look at flavor as NAI but on this site is that a thing? Bad alignments get the bad characters and good alignments get the good ones?
How the game is going I am more critical of the low content players. I see a lot of interactions as potential TvT and I see the culture of this site as wolves coasting into later day phases. Outside of Mestari's situation and some pressure on Thoth I am not seeing much contention.
Your post pinged me in calling out me specifically for low participation while ignoring a large chunk of the player base that has the same issue. Small thing sure. Its understandable given that I was voiced as a recruitment target (and kinda funny how little thought was given to the idea of me rejecting recruitment) but it is of note. I have not seen direct pressure and hunting from you but rather passively casting shade and after a pretty soft push with a vote from me you are very survival focused.
If you would like to resolve my concerns we can talk it out. I would be very interested in hearing who you think should be the focus. I think most players would agree with my reasoning on Luna, Wylted, and Mestari as well as my thoughts on guilds functioning but if you see scum motive in me feel free to point it out as well. Its not exactly a smart play as a wolf to dig in on a slot nobody is looking at while multiple hard trains exist unless you think one of them is on my mafia team and I am dismantling pressure tangentially.
Im thinking 12v4v1 with town having a split faction dynamic as a strong potential and basically approaching the game with that mindset. I feel like 13v4 is a pretty tough balance.
Well a few things there
In blind or semi-blind setups I do not like to make assumptions. Its very possible Mafia has PR's and adding some form of 1 shot strongman and such would be in the cards. I have asked quite a few questions to the host on the subject and strongman was brought up with protectives not functioning as +1/-1 but instead immunity with exceptions.
Does mafia need to be recruited to activate their PRs? Thats also a valid question. Something I have been watching for if people seem to lobby to be recruited and although both Town and mafia in that situation would have motive for doing so I am not seeing much of it. I would expect wolves to push in that direction if that was the case.
Then there is the question of 3p. One could exist with its own KPN and that could hit N1. Potential does exist there
And we can look at things from a balance perspective. 4v13 is slanted in towns favor. Town also starts (and should have had) 6 effective PR's at game start with a mechanic leveraging chunks of the town being role blocked each night to create more PR vs using whatever abilities our 2 guild leaders have. This is pretty damn strong. This increases my paranoia that Mafia has powerful roles as well as the potential of third party existing.
Now on the subject of guilds to unpack a few things there-
1- I think its an awful idea for guild leaders to reveal who they are recruiting. Effectively this translates to outing the towns Power Roles to the mafia. We should not be doing this. People should not be asking for this and it very much caught my attention that it has been pushed. Huge advantage to Mafia for knowing who has activated power roles and very little to gain for town outside of avoiding cross recruitment.
2- My 2 cents is that at least N1 guilds should recruit. More PR = better. There is the paranoid part of my head that questions if Mafia must also be recruited to activate their powers (which would be a super cool dynamic) but I suspect its not the case.
3- I would encourage players in guilds not to out their PR. Just no reason to do so in a chat that could have mafia in it until you have some result worth discussing.
Just my thoughts on whats optimal there. I think this is solid reasoning everyone can get behind and I am rather critical of some of the pushes I have seen to out who is recruited and such.
So I am going to unpack this rather grudgingly. I dislike this entire line of subject but none the less I have drawn conclusions on it that I do not even like voicing. Every bit of the situation hits way too close to OOG and angle shooting all around for my taste but sense its a thing here is my take-
Mestari- So they show up in a discord and ask publicly what a Godfather is after roles go out. I will withhold what I think about them doing that but it happened and its been dragged into this game. A few thoughts on that-
1- There are mistakes and there is intentionally baiting. Any experienced Mafia player knows what a Godfather is which is why I see this as intentionally baiting. Its just to flagrant to be a slip imo.
2- Would a player do this as Mafia? I think no. It would be viewed as hard gamethrowing in most places to OOG leak their alignment and it makes little sense to do as mafia. While I am an insane enough person to actually use lynch bait plays as mafia and recently did so in a game (Lost wolves existed and I needed to be suspected just enough) its just not something players do. Assuming this was intentional this makes me feel they are town
3- Host meta- How would a host handle giving someone a Godfather role and publicly voicing it in open OOG pre-game chat? I would expect the host to immediately reroll the game and swat them on the nose. A town doing it would probably get an eye roll and a swat on the nose. One of these two things occurred.
These things said, For reasoning I absolutely hate exists in my head I believe Mestari is simply town. They did a stupid thing but it logically indicates (between their actions and the hosts reaction) that they are just town.
For Wylted they claimed Guild leader and have not been counter claimed. Not only that but nobody has pushed them on it. If they were a mafia claiming as much to out a guild leader I would expect either the real 2nd guild leader or at least one of their recruits to be gunning at them hard. This is not happening at all which makes me feel they are as close to confirmed town as you can get without mech.
For Lunatic they are mech confirmed town to me. I did get mech confirmation with a recruitment attempt and the same additional reasoning as I have for Wylted applies here for those who do not have my mech reasoning (although you can apply the additional bit of me confirming their action)
Wylted- Guild leader (with no counter claim)
Lunatic- Guild leader (Confirmed mechanically to me with a recruitment attempt)
Mestari- Absurd angleshooty nonsense resulting in a hard town lean
If these concepts are held by the player base we are in a situation (removing yourself) where we eliminate in a pool of 9 town and 4 mafia giving us 30% odds if we just RNG it. This is before considering for balance purposes that a third party is rather likely. Maybe some kinda benign or maybe some kinda killer to up the KPN. Add that and odds go up in our favor.
I will bring up that unless some unwritten rule exists I do not know about a no-lynch on a day with no factional kill is an option. Its also important to consider that just because N1 has no factional does not necessary mean that mafia does not have some other kill utility.
I played on maybe 2 hydras on MU and smurfed a few times but Xavionder is not one of them. My games there will be older ones.
If you just want to know how I think here is a draft of my thoughts on scum hunting from years back breaking down fundamentals. May be of more use to you than digging for a game to grab meta tells. https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/45881-Helz-guide-to-improving-as-a-player-Part-2-Fundamentals-of-Scum-Hunting
Its cool. Im not upset about it. Just establishing healthy boundaries. It was a very weird line they took there but they are essentially confirmed town and even if they were not I do not see much alignment indicative about it. They do not know me and were not trying to offend. And I am quite honestly use to getting some amount of shit for being how I am.
I am around. Feel free to ask me anything
Fair. I am catching up on the thread now
I will say one more thing on this. Yes my writing style may be contrived. For some TMI I have done years of speech therapy and while just speaking and connecting with people may be something natural for you its something I had to work hard to get where I am. Its not a choice on my part. It is who I am. It causes me problems but its not something I can change. I would appreciate it if you left how I speak alone even if it bothers you.
Oh dear god no. Fucking AI is a norm in mafia here? Fuck my life.
Im going to resist saying what I want to about your AI shrink and ask that you keep it out of my life.
Well yes. I am very autistic and communication is something of a struggle for me. Duno whats AI about that but it is a thing.
You are bleeding town to a level I can not deny. Maybe I am just being too controlling right now. I get that you dislike me rejecting your guild but you do seem to understand why. While we may be going at the situation in ways each disagrees with I do not see the benefit in the trolling.
Legit questions were raised that could have legit answers and push the game into a honest and legit examination of the other players in the game.. Can we get back twords that? Wtf is even going on with this game..
Wow. Can we just break RVS and stay on track? We are crossing into a level of silly I am questioning if I am just being trolled.
Dont full claim. Fuck that shit.
Claiming your mech status does little to prove any AI anything and just feeds the Mafia info if you are town. Awful thing D1.
Who do you think we should focus on D1 and why?
A few things to unpack catching up with the thread. As for me- I rolled wolf. I promise I only want to eat your little ones and elderly as I exercise the greatest evil I can achieve manipulating you all to turn against etch other. Just let me eat your people and we can be friends : )
But I am not ok with anyone being more evil than me. I must be the greatest evil in this game.
Did Lunatic recruit me? I got the offer yes. I will confirm as much which does place them as confirmed town. I did not accept. My role did not need to be in a guild to do the stuff it does and I did not see a real benefit in sharing a chat that offset the cost of expanding the towns PR after conversations with the host about game mechanics. While I am going to avoid unpacking any read of Wylted or Lunatic given I feel both are almost certainly town and Lunatic is effectively confirmed town to me I think expansion of PR’s holds value to the town and for any that question it look at post 377. I never accepted and if I was mafia I would have to gain advantage.
I will not say what I do but I do not need be in a guild to do it. I saw it as a greater issue for me to have a voice in some group chat than me not being able to act if they choose to recruit to unlock more PR functions. 281 of Lunatic also reflects blocking some of the other towns recruitment voicing they had 2 shots go through and somehow blocked 1 from the other side that Wylted did not say was untrue. Sounds like N0 was a disaster for town imo.
Thoth caught my attention a good bit. Some early ‘hanging out’ behavior in 222 and 232 followed by some decent takes in 240. They push in 279 a question of long term returns for short term gains with a slant. This caught my attention. Huge intention tell to be questioned here I see on if enabling more TPR actions should be limited to just locking in who is currently in the groups. While I disagree with their conclusion I also do question the motive for their conclusion.
Externally Wryly hit on a TMI potential on Thoth which I pinged on pretty hard before catching up with chat and seeing their post. I am in a spot of questioning why Thoth would make themselves such a focus with such a complex position to the point I would have targeted questions before potential aggression-
@Thoth
Can you unpack exactly how developing less TPR is beneficial in your head?
What is it that you see as the optimal mech path of using recruitment creating new TPR’s vs using the current ones ability now with the knowledge that only 2 out of 4 town recruitments actually happened?
ILikePie5 caught my attention early but their progression was unremarkable. They push Mestari potentially opportunistically in 40. They then shift though around 193 to a target that was voting Mestari which makes no sense for someone trying to accomplish an easy dunk. Bussing? Distancing? Etc? Lots of questions. I have not seen much from them to feel comfortable either way on them
@ ILikePie5 can you explain your thought process transitioning between Mestari and Kohai (who was voting your Mestari)
Mestari is a subject of focus. Im kinda pissed off about why tbh. I talked about this at length in my wolf chat as I spoke about my desire to eat your children and elderly but effectively nobody is stupid enough to OOG leak “What is a godfather” and a host not reroll. They are semi host confirmed town imo. Not happy about it but I will run with that advantage.
Implcaitions of Mestari- They played a lynch bait play or are very stupid. Ok.. Sure… Ignoring all that bullshit and the horse it rode in on Kohai’s 153 stands out highlighting that ‘slip.’ We can unpack that without touching the angle shooting nonsense. Opportunistic intention tell gunning for the situation with a lot of framing organizational posts and few takes outside of this. Does not look great but in 276 they shift to Thoth which in context is not opportunistic and looks better.
WIFOM /bussing arguments may exist but they are exactly that here. @Kohai independent of that situation I really do not like is a part of the game conversation what else do you see in Mestari? Do you think they would deep fake so far or do you think there is such a slip and why did you full claim so quickly in 197?
To the people reading this I am also seeing a lot of “Im doing vague good organizing things” posts which reflect effort which gets perceived as towny but also excuses doing things in the game while avoiding the uncomfortable things for a scum. I will express limited concern on Kohai’s slot.
RexFavilla is of interest. Apparently one of the two guilds recruited as they verified in 347. Cool. Does nothing to confirm their alignment. I liked their backtracking on Mestari 67 but I just do not see much to peg them one way or the other. Pretty neutral overall but something to take note of.
@RexFavilla Who do you feel should be focused? What do you think about the idea of guilds taking no action vs recruiting?
Casey_Risk caught my attention. They hit on critical information control in 322 but they seem to take very ehh ‘acceptable’ positions to the point I question how many original positions they have. That in mind..
@Casey_Risk Who do you think should be focused on and why?
Alyssa is a higher level of my paranoia on this subject. Everyone has posted but me? Interesting that I am on their mind while that’s not the case. Im going to hold off before saying more but I will vote here and eat some popcorn watching what others see on them.
VTL Alyssa
(Let me know if I voted wrong new to the server and such but they should get some focus)
I do think we should hit hard on the lurkers moving towards EOD targets. From what I am looking at so far I think we have a majority low effort lazy mafia team hoping that Town eats itself while we have 3 smi-confirmed town and some patterns I wont outline yet.
Complicated question.
Someone thats overtly hedgy and passive is also an indicator. If you have an ultra aggressive player that either is power town or power wolf and they kick their feet up to slack through the day that does say something itself. They are meta obligated to push and as they push they can be seen with this tell I described that not many really understand.
For someone to avoid the tell they would have to understand the tell exists. This is why I said I was shooting myself in the foot explaining it pre-game. I could go much more in depth but would rather revisit this post game if you want to unpack what I see as true alignment indicators for the game of mafia.
