ILikePie5

What did yall do last night?

Everyone needs to repost their justifications please.

He said he asks about a character. If that character is in the game. He has to impulse visit them. He’s told if that character is in the game but not who is the character 

it’s why it makes no sense

Go read his most previous post. He just flipped back to “role”

I’m going to

VTL REF

If Luna has what he claimed in the game, I will be baffled.

Pie's role has zero town utility. Now that he's disclosed it scum will never NK him if he's town. Mine at least has some. I'd agree that it will have zero utility next DP, but it has at least some now. And should we really be lynching based on role utility when we have two lynches left and one will likely be a policy lynch of you next DP, and then a shot in the dark if you are town?

My role makes sense in a game Luna said was going to be swingy. From a game design standpoint, my role makes sense. Your only argument here is a WIFOM argument that I’m one of the best options to recruit. Period. That’s all you have.

Your role makes zero sense from a mod design perspective. Even night makes zero sense. Character cop makes zero sense. You don’t even have utility if scum just claim their true role.

I disagree with REF that he should have faked his claim as town (the risk of just being lynched as a result was substantial and too many of those types of efforts fall apart), but I'm surprised that he didn't try to garner everyone's claims first before yielding his own.

Mass claiming together is always better. It works in our live games all the time. And let’s say, I waited, then the opposite argument would be used against me. Pie waited till the end to claim and therefore his role is fake. You can paint any picture you want with WIFOM.

Considering how many of our past games have involved Pie trying to push back on claiming until everyone else had claimed, this does stand out. Granted, the Yakuza flip changed things and the massclaim push itself is different, and granted, it's something I would scumread from most anyone else if they were withholding their claim to see how things shake out. Pie usually tries to hold off as much as possible, though, and this particular role would only afford him more reason to do so.

And then the flip side of this argument would occur as I mentioned above.

Activity could have been spun out of speculating over the recruit and pushing for claims in a more sensible manner.

I didn’t see you doing this once. Not last DP, not this one.

Once activity starts it feeds itself. In fact, I'd say the long amount of time spent arguing about a mass claim consituted a derailment of otherwise productive discussion over who was recruited and more surgical application of pressure towards likely candidates.

I’ve said since the beginning, the whole likely recruit vs unlikely recruit is all WIFOM. You’re never going to know. Casey is smart enough so it’s a best 50/50 shot to choosing someone who is obvious vs not. Choosing someone who would be scumread after DP1 vs not.

The subtle push for a lynch was also towards people not in the likely recruit pool, who should be under the most scrutiny imo.

The best play this DP is finding the original scum member. And then using their flip and behavior this DP to piggyback onto the next one to catch the recruit.

I think you pushed a mass claim for two reasons. One is that you wanted to disclose your role but didn't want it to look scummy, so a mass claim lets you do that.

Let’s be honest to ourselves here. I basically had already soft claimed the shit out of my role early on. So your only argument here is that I was converted. And that’s entirely based on WIFOM cause you believe that’s my true role in first place. You’re also forgetting that a mass claim would entail my true partner claiming and possible getting caught with that fake claim. So there’s no point to advocating for that mass claim.

The other is that you wanted to get all the info on the table to plan your night action now that there's no protective roles (Whiteflame's role was unknown at the time).

This logic isn’t unique to me. Yes, it’s information for scum, everyone knows that. But everyone agreed that the pros outweigh the cons in this scenario.

That way the scum team can eliminate any investigative roles NP2 and, if they pull off a mislynch today, go hard for another mislynch next DP and clinch the game. Whereas without a mass claim even if we didn't lynch scum today we could at least have the investigative roles protected via anonymity and have some results to discuss next DP. As town you could have let pressure fall on you, as it naturally would, and claim something that would draw the NK but instead you subtly pushed pressure elsewhere while acting in ways that only make sense if you are scum.

Again, you’re assuming that I would lie about my role. That’s not true at all, and I’ve advised other townies that unless they’re 100% sure there aren’t drawbacks, they shouldn’t. If I claimed something that was CCed, that’s throwing the game. You’re saying I could’ve “acted” another way. That’s just personal preference, not an argument for scum lol.

I don't think it's a fake claim, I think it's your original role and you were recruited.

Okay, glad you got your story straight.

Now that you are scum, you see the role as useless and want to use it as a tool to explain why you haven't been Nkd as the game goes on.

Or mass claiming was the only way to generate reads cause DP1 was useless with the quick hammer. Plus I already mentioned the strategy for this DP.

A mass claim allows you to put it out there and instrumentalize the role in that way. If you were town you'd see the role for the potent weapon that it is and want to keep it hidden at all costs, and try to bait the NK this NP - because you would be thinking they fired off the yakuza recruit DP1 instead of killing you and that you're still a the top of their shitlist.

So you think I suggested a mass claiming and claimed Martyr for towncred? Yes, I would like to keep my role hidden, but we had no path forward because DP1 there was nothing. Rather sitting here twiddling our thumbs, I led the initiative. You wouldn’t even be talking about this if I hadn’t suggested the mass claim lol, so it’s really rich that you’re calling me out for my claim when you didn’t even want to mass claim in the first place.

I just fundamentally disagree that a Yakuza upends behavioral reads. I think it makes them more important. A player who has flipped alignment will change their behavior in ways which diverts from their normal town meta and often from their behavior pre-recruitment.

That would be true…if we had any behavior to analyze in the first place. The DP ended super fast because of the hammer by Mikal. You have to bet that he was the original scum, but that doesn’t explain why he thought I could confirm him. Plus as the hammerer, he’d have the biggest target on his back.

Pie, for example, just went through all the rigamarole about what killing David means this DP vc next DP and agonized over how many NKs we will have. Then he claimed a role which, if he is NK'd, will buy us another night.

Yes, because I’m not going to lie about my role. I’ve made it fully aware to others that I think fake claiming as scum should only be done in extraordinary circumstances. And you’re also forgetting that I have to stay alive to be able to have a chance at being NKed.

Pie is often targetted early in the game when he is town. If you were Pie and new this and weren't recruited, wouldn't the obvious pro-town move be to draw the NK?

I did. In DP1. But this DP, we were forced to full claim. Hell, we wouldn’t even be having this conversation if I didn’t claim. So which is it? We shouldn’t have claimed or Pie’s claim is “bad.”

I'd even fake-claim in that situation to make myself a juicier target. I think the benefit of that overwhlems whatever we gained from this mass claim.

I disagree because I don’t agree with your risk assessment.

On the contrary, if you were Pie and were recruited (very likely scenario), wouldn't you want to mass claim? If you are Pie and are scum, one of the hardest things to explain as the game drags on is why you haven't been killed yet when it is basically scum meta to do so.

As I mentioned to Supa, why would I fake claim this if I was converted? I would have just used my true town role. If you hate my claim, then you have to assume I was the original scum, not the converted

His claim is perfect for explaining that very thing. Disclosing it has huge anti-town ramifications while being very beneficial to scum. If he out and disclosed it on his own it would look sus, but as part of a mass claim it looks far more natural.

So you think I was the original scum? You can’t have it both ways. Either I was converted and so my “behavior” is wrong or I am the original scum fake claiming this when I had already sorted DP1.

To be honest. I think that it is more likely than not that Pie got converted and scrambled for a fake claim than Ref messing up his claim Imo.

Again, why would I fake claim if I was converted? If you think I am fake claiming, then you have to think that I am the original scum. Converted scum can just claim their original town role.

When I was mafia with him he seemed to have his shit in order and wanted to plan things out. He’s also a good enough player that I could not see him fucking up a claim.

If you’re talking about REF, he definitely messed up the role claim when he was scum with Banana. The soft claims got them early, and he was just as uneager to have people claim then.

I also know Casey is a big fan of Pie’s mafia play and if anything would choose Pie. Along with some behaviors I pointed out before and his more defensive attitude, I think Pie is a better lynch than REF

What do you think is defensive? I’ve been pushing for the mass claim the entire DP to generate roles and reads so we can lynch to the best of our abilities. Your logic is severely flawed in the sense, anyone could be converted, but there’s only one original scum. Once we catch that one, it should be easy from there

VTL Pie

I am probably gonna be dead wrong about this and it’s gonna be REF and I overthought this, but fuck it

So you think you’re going to be wrong about my lynch, yet you’re still going for it?

Pie wanting a mass claim also makes zero sense as town. He knows he's almost always NKd as town, he has a role in which him baiting the NK basically stops the NK for the next NP. He should have wanted to stay quiet about the role and bait the NK - which wouldn't be hard seeing as he's Pie and is an NK magnet to begin with, but instead he outed that info. As scum, he would have motivation to out his role because it being out there will serve as an excuse for why he hasn't been NK'd going forward. When someone says 'why haven't you been NK'd yet' he can say 'well, scum won't NK me because it will cost them an NP!' I see a lot of scum motivation for him disclosing his role and pretty much zero town motivation. This is especially bad given that he was one of the big people pushing the mass claim - nobody had to twist his arm to spill the tea.

People have said this multiple times, but we had zero behavioral reads to go off of because of the Yakuza. We had to do something to generate those unique reads. The mass claim was the way to do that. Did I want to keep my role hidden? Obviously. I tried baiting the NK DP1, but they had a Yakuza.

As for your role. I’ve mentioned why there’s basically zero utility in its use.

A) It’s even night so you could get max 2 shots off, but even that is unlikely because Luna said the game was swingy

B) The theme is complex, so scum could just claim their original character.

C) Even if you die, if WF is telling the truth, he can use your role and investigate someone

Remind me of your justification again?

This is obviously true and I still consider Mikal an option but to be honest I feel like a lot of people value you as a mafia player rather than someone else. It is a bit of recency bias where you have dominated and swept games. WF is good but I have reason to believe he is town at the moment but he could be in my pool.

What reason do you have to believe he is town?

Mikal is the only one I'm considering, and even then, he hasn't shown any indication that he is mafia. He also was under the impression you were ready to be confirmed until the recruit happened.

He knew about conversion before he said Pie can confirm I’m town. The leap from using a motivator on someone to auto town doesn’t mean anything. He could’ve been a converted mafia. Regardless, the goal of today should be to kill the original mafia as I’ve said countless times. The 2 people that fit that bill are REF and WF right now

Tbh I am honestly torn. At first I was really leaning toward Ref but now after seeing Ref went awol in DP1 then starting to come back DP2, I just find it hard to believe that they would be recruited. I am rulling them out of the equation for at least for being chosen

Okay so REF could be the original scum, which is what I’ve said.

My question is were they someone who recruited. I know Casey was inactive as well so it would make sense for them to Yakuza someone that was an active town member if you think Rex was scum. Casey would have to make a bold decision on their own without any consultation from Rex. NP was relatively short.

REF probably wasn’t recruited

If Casey targetted an active mafia, Pie would probably be the best pick IMO for purely behavior because I think the majority of members think he is one of the best, so if you are trying to win you are likely trying to choose the best person

Mikal and WF are strong players as well. And I’m the “obvious” choice as you said.

If you had a power role you would be able to target 2 people. How would you not know. 

Why does that mean you’re town though?

The form literally says it function similarly to Beloved Princess. I know that MafiaWiki is not the tride and true source but it gives a big picture

I never said it wasn’t. Just cause it’s similar, doesn’t mean it’s an SOP. Roleblocker and JK are similar but one is SOP, not the other

Opposite, instead of lynch it's death. Instead of double death cuz of 2 NP's its no death

Don’t know what this means.

Instead of saying "well if you lynch me we lose a DP", you say "I'm only alive because if mafia kill me they lose a killing action."

Yes, and that’s why I was baiting an NK in DP1.

Not as strong as an SOP, but I would still kinda consider it. Except you have 2 excuses on why you should stay alive and why you are alive

I was locked in DP1 basically. If you think I’m scum, then I have to be the converted scum

It's the opposite of a Beloved Princess, which in itself I think is an SOP.

How is it the opposite of a Beloved Princess?

Why did you think I would know if you’re town or not based on giving me a Motivator?

OK, fair point. Thoughts on lynching the player with the least town utility? 

I’m comfortable with it. I would like to hear WFs thoughts to. We still have till 4:30 tomorrow

Please confirm with the mod what happens if you are killed by lynching or by a vengeful town

1.) Nothing, I just die and my role doesn’t activate

2.) I’ll ask, but you said yourself it doesn’t count as a nightkill so I presume it’s a nothing happens

can you confirm what happens if you are day killed? 

I’ll ask, but my PM specifically says night killed. Thats why I asked earlier if your shot counts as a night kill if you remember

From the claims castin is still my strongest town read. What real irks me about Rex is his foundering, contradictions, his refusal to claim, and his role seems to have far more scum utility than town utility. 

It has zero town utility. Think about it. If he’s an even night character cop, he could only use it DP2 and DP4. Luna said the game is swingy. The odds of the game lasting to DP4 are pretty low based on that alone.

I’d also be willing to lynch pie. If he dies we skip a night phase plus he’s a prime recruit. There’s a zero percent probability he is original scum, however.

That’s not how my role works. If I die in the night, the next NP gets skipped. That’s why I was trying to bait the NK.

Bottomline: here is everyone’s lynch pool for today: 

Pie

Mikal

Wryly

WF

Vader

REF

Out of this, if you exclude yourself, you either have a 20% chance or 40% chance of lynching scum. Those odds go up tomorrow to 33% and 66% if we mislynch today.

I posted this earlier in the DP, and now is the right time to revisit this with everyone’s claims. I’m eliminating myself cause I know I’m town. I think we established Vader doesn’t make sense. I think Wryly’s role makes sense in the game for balance reasons, so she’s only scum if she was converted. And with our goal being to get the original scum, we can eliminate her. That leaves:

Mikal

WF

REF

At worst there’s a 1/3 chance for one of them to be scum. At the best it’s 2/3. Going to reread the DP

(H) Pie - Ellen Ripley - Martyr

(O) REF - MUTHUR - Even Night Character Cop

(A) Mikal - Engineers - Developed

(O) Wryly - Wendy - Tracker

(A) Kohai - The Xenomorph - Vengeful Townie

(O) Whiteflame - David 8 - Scavenger

(O) Vader - Ash - Informant

(H) Casey - Dr. Wren - Mafia Yakuza

(A) Thoth - Facehugger - Apportioner

Skeptical about Pie. Don’t really love the claim he gave to be honest and his behavior has irked me the whole game. Feels way more defensive than aggressive and haven’t seen him really go after someone that hard. Feels like he’s playing softer than usually, almost safer. Kinda have a feeling he could be scum tbh and I don’t love the claim either, considering he is one of the ones who believed that a Beloved Princess should be an SOP and this role functions similarly

Would you like to explain how my role is “SOP?”

Driving home right now

Catching a fake character claim, which with a yakuza flipping the remaining scum probably has to make.

Whoever was converted would just claim the character and role given by Luna. Only the original scum could fake claim and that’s assuming they even do

An Even Night character checker? What even is the point of that?

It’s basically a beloved. But trying not to read into it to much. I was just heavily implying a passive role that justifies baiting a nk when you seemed like you were softing a power role last dp erks me.

Again, why is what I did a bad play?

this literally is red flags all day.

How is it red flags. I didn’t lie to you