ILikePie5

You always say "I figured" after new developments, you rascal. Although in this case, while I did try to be less transparent than Helz, I think it was still guessable. I was mostly relying on people thinking I probably wouldn't be a prime recruit target.

I meant after REF revealed that he wasn’t the Cop and that Helz hadn’t revealed. You were the 3rd person on my ass, so it had to be you by POE

Actually I'm being retarded. I'm going to out the cop because if Helz is scum they know anyway, and on the off-chance the cop is scum you won't know who they are if I die. It's Wryly. I'd appreciate you recruiting her if Helz flips scum so I can go down with this ship alone.

I’ll handle it don’t worry.

Lol. Surpriiiiiiise.

Yes, I told the guild who I'd be targeting NP2. Figured it was a good way to test if the guild chat was pure.

I figured it was you lol.

Helz. He actually accepted the invite and joined our guild. He has not claimed to us. There is also a third. This third person is actually the cop. His character is Cha Hae-In. His character is the cop because monsters smell like shit to her. Luna came up with a kill-bait gambit where I would claim the cop results to bait the night kill. My character is Hwang Dongsoo. I have a role which has negative utility to town, but which I would rather not describe as it would allow scum to manipulate night results. The plan was to out the guilty and then hope scum kills me.

See was it so hard? That gives me enough info. I will decline to name the other one now since I don’t want the cop to reveal themselves either.

Did yall discuss that yall were going to investigate me?

Yes

Great. One of them is Mag1cman. Your turn

I'm perfectly willing to reveal their name even if it destroys my guild. I just want an absolute guarantee that I'm doing this for a town player.

I just want you to do what you literally offered to do here before walking it back:

Okay so you agree to reveal after I reveal the first name?

The only way to force REF to reveal their name is we willing to force a lynch on him because he loses on the spot. He knows the person in his chat is likely scum, but he can’t reveal it because he needs the guild to live to win. If the guild goes extinct or is hijacked by scum, he automatically loses

You're asking me to play against that other wincon. I've stated I am willing to do that, but only if I am 110% sure you're town. There's two ways to do that. Wait for tomorrow to see Wylted's flip. Or, for your guildmates to vouch for you right now.

Im not doing that. You know that the person in your guild is likely scum. If you’re going hold town hostage you’re going to die. I’m willing to let the guilds duke it out. If you reveal, you’ll get a free recruit cause I will likely die.

Before I handle a bit of adulting I will say the exact same dynamic exists in your claim. We 'could' demand you have a guild member out themselves to verify your claim today. But why should we? The flip will show if that player was the guild leader and that semi-confirms you. Yes outing one of your guild members could resolve that right the fuck now but we could also just wait for the flip and get reasonable enough confirmation without outing a player as having developed powers. 

Sometimes its good to just wait a bit and revisit the issue later imo.

The flip will confirm me regardless. But what if Shining flips town? REF definitely dies and we still have 2 scum on the loose. That’s why it makes sense to get the information TODAY.

Your pretty clever. While I disagree with your direction I will acknowledge that. Take a moment and try to break down the odds of what you are voicing as a potential.

Let’s assume framer because Redirector odds are even lower. If this was due to blind chance, there’s a 1/15 chance that they framed correctly. ~7% chance they framed correctly. Odds of one scum recruited NP0 = 4/16 =0.25 or 25%. NP1 let’s assume we factor Alyssa was never going to be recruited. 2/16 =0.125 or 12.125%. Both are immediately higher than purely random chance

Sure, I get your fixation. You just got shoved hard as a confirmed town and such. You feel very justified and want closure. An easy question I can ask though is why does it need to be 'right the fuck now'?

Cause what happens if scum NK REF tonight? REF likely knows a scum and refuses to out it.

Let’s assume for a moment that Shining is scum. There’s one scum left that would likely be in the guild. Scum will kill REF to prevent them from being outted. That’s why it has to be “right the fuck now.”

You agree that Shining is probably scum. Whats the harm in keeping developed PR's hidden for another day and revisiting the subject tomorrow?

I do feel there is harm in guilds going at etch other demanding reveals. There is simply a difference between something being a valid issue and something being a valid issue that has to be addressed 'right the fuck now.' I am seeing more harm than good with the timing and its based off a pretty improbable situation.

What makes you think it’s more likely that purely due to random chance, scum knew that

A) REF was the Cop

B) He was going to investigate Pie

Has Casey posted today?

No

Thats an interesting question. All forms of manipulation could exist. Pie hard claims not miller and there is no reason to doubt that.

But you think that’s far more likely than scum having a mole? 😂😂😂

Yeah. Im all about getting as much information as possible. What you did was a giant waste of time and you even view the situation as being a TvT. Then you double down afterwards and want to kill the guild member you town read because he is not bending to your will or you circle back and push me as you think I may be in that guild. Seems like you are more focused on your little Tree larping win con than helping out the town right now as you admit Shining is probably scum.

I am focused on catching scum. And I am confident that scum is in that guild. That knowledge is paramount to catching scum, whether you think it’s optimal or not is besides the point. I’ve explained exactly why it’s likely that scum is in that guild. I’ve also explained why it’s likely there’s a redirector and framer, which you also conveniently ignore. You’re blaming me for my guild win con when REF IS DOING THE EXACT SAME FUCKING THING BY REFUSING TO SAY WHO HE TOLD THE INFORMATION TO.

My take is pretty simple- We can revisit this subject later in the game but for now it does not make sense to out all the guild members giving mafia a list of who has developed powers.

Then don’t. Make REF claim who the person is. I don’t want to say who’s in my guild. Tomorrow your mod confirmed townie won’t be alive and REF will keep playing to his wincon by refusing to reveal who the person is in his guild.

I do not see any world where scum Rex faked this peek. It simply makes no sense. While I do acknowledge a potential exists for framing/redirection/lawyer/whatever else to be possible we are talking about a gamestate where only 2 scum exist at N2 requiring both one of the scum to have that function + one of exactly those two to be in the guild. I simply see low odds there.

It’s even lower odds that a random scum member randomly framed me or randomly redirected REF lol. Gimme a break.

Lets set the ego aside and really consider what I am saying. Is the cost of revealing every developed power role in the game worth the benefit of maybe catching a rat in a guild given the odds on what has to perfectly exist for that to be the case? And this is assuming Rex hardline flatly voiced a target in his guild chat to begin with which I have not herd them say.

I knew it lmfao. This is why I wanted it in writing. Cause people like you are going to bring it up. THIS IS EXACTLY WHY I WANTED IT IN WRITING

Past that why the hell are you pushing for an elimination on a slot you think is town and agree has no scum motive for their push on you? Dude. You are on some bullshit right now. If you want me to sheep you get your head out of your ass.

I already told you. If he wants to push his guild wincon, I will gladly push mine as well. Revealing ONE person in his guild who is likely scum is NOT A HARM TO TOWN

Fucking just imagine if the day phase smited half the posts because Pie had just come out and said "Actually I am the confirmed guild leader" to start with. 

For all the fancy bullshit in their head they accomplished less than nothing and wasted a ton of the towns time. Now they want people to sheep them as they push to eliminate a player they town read because they are on some power trip? No thank you.

Aren’t you the same guy who said we want as much information as possible? Lmao

Im going to speak slowly and use small words breaking this down barney style for you-

Guild recruitment = having night actions

Everyone knows that. No one knows what they are lmao. You can’t plan around them if you don’t know what they are is the point.

Revealing guild recruits = revealing what town can act

And there can be townies outside of guilds who still can act.

If you want to be paranoid that Rex was pushing their win con think this through- how would they even know your part of the Tree Hugger cult anyways?

What are you even saying? I never said he was pushing his wincon until after I had already claimed.

That info did not come out until after you claimed. You are acting like your little guild win con bullshit is some total war.

It fuckin is because he’s hiding potential scum from town. And you’re enabling him to whether because you’re in a guild with him and are implicated, or you’re just a moron.

I could give a shit less about it and you are jumping to an assumption of bad faith that I doubt is possible. Unless you want to tell me you have some guild member check we do not know about and was not mentioned on Lunatics flip.

What are you even saying lmfao.

If Rex's guild mate is mafia, then the original of Pie's guild mates is town for not informing mafia they were making a play on confirmable town. I reckon the second is probably town too, but I don't know at what point of the night you join the chat. Knowing who was recruited, and in what order they were recruited, is critical to the solve.

I can answer this one. They join after the NP is over.

Helz asked all of those questions to Pie trying to lock down an out for himself once Pie confirmed himself. Interesting turn of events.

I love it. This game is full of ironies. Should def go in the HoF

Im against anyone needing to come forward to confirm Pie. The flip will clear it up enough as WF pointed out and there is no need to reveal developed PR

Great, now tell REF to reveal who is in his guild that knew that he was going to investigate me.

Wylted was right, you are a retard. Literally no one is talking about revealing power roles who are in the guilds. And it’s because of REF refusing to reveal who he told information to that we’re in this position. If he wants to play to his other wincon, I’m fine playing it too.

Lol that’s what I was thinking too

Also, I’m the sole remaining mod confirmed town. Listen to what I say

Your theory is again leveraged on likely 2 living Mafia having some specific framing/redirect function + one of those mafia being in a guild that has maybe 1 other person. Thats pretty low odds imo and not a great reason to execute a player you think is more likely town than not for not following your plan.

Yes, a redirector makes sense especially with a Strengthener who I town read. A framer also should make sense considering there’s a claimed cop.

Maybe lets jump on Shining instead and keep this in mind as the game pushes forward before we out all our PR and catabolize our guilds?

You’re literally not cannibalizing anything. After me and Luna, anyone in the guilds could be scum. I happen to trust both people. Luna trusted REF for sure. Dunno about the other person.

Could we maybe keep our town power roles a secret and not reveal them all to scum over some dick measuring contest?

I’m not going to reveal what stuff my guild mates have. I don’t even want to name them, but REF refuses to believe I’m town, when the entire town believes I’m town.

So look, With what WF voiced you likely are simply just town.

I know I am town. I’m more town than anyone here.

You pushing Rex to reveal their guild mates- I do not see any real town benefit from that.

There is a clear benefit in the sense that the person is likely scum lol. I will explain it to you for the 15th time. At most, there’s one other person in that guild, assuming you’re telling the truth about rejecting. NP0 REF was recruited. NP2 they could’ve recruited again. NP3 REF used his ability so they couldn’t have recruited.

Let’s assume there is 1 other person besides REF, and that person is scum. Let’s assume that REF told that person he was going to investigate me.

That would’ve ended in my lynch immediately. Because flips don’t get posted till tomorrow, you wouldn’t know that I was innocent. REF gets NKed by their scum guild mate and takes control of the entire guild and gets rid of town Pie, and no one knows what happened.

It edges on the hypothetical that they both have a scum in their guild and some form of redirect/framer on their team. So what is the trade off there? On a potential hypothetical you out chunks of awakened town power roles. I figure their guild can make its own decisions on if it needs to sort its people. 

The problem is we can no longer trust REF. With Luna, I 100% trusted him to honor the fact that he would scum hunt at the expense of his own guild wincon. We need to know who that guild mate is. Period.

That said you wanting to lynch Rex is just dumb. You openly do not scum read them but you are willing to lynch them out of what? Prideful spite because they disrespected your authority or some shit? Come on man. Chill out and lets get back to digging for scum. The "Lets wagon Rex to force them to be a town the way we want" is some silly shit.

No, I already explained why I want to lynch him. He is being anti-town, and it plays towards my wincon. If he wants to play hard ball, I can too.

I will acknowledge that I had tunnel vision on you but really you pulled some very awkward shifty nonsense digging in on points that totally did not matter. And even now you are still kinda doing that in a way thats at best very tangentially in line with supporting towns win con. If you squint your eyes and tilt your head at just the right angle you can see how its potentially possible that there could be a scum in Lunatics guild that somehow influenced a check on you with only 2 scum alive at the time of the action.

Why is this possibility so unlikely for you? It’s a foolproof plan for scum. They never could’ve factored in that Wylted was lying to begin with.

Im still interested in Shining. I do not believe their claim. 1 shot lighting rod that has to be recruited to be used just feels very under powered and I say that feeling that I have a very weak role.

Shining is likely the last scum besides the person in that guild.

Once he takes this final step and actually confirms myself, I'm willing to work with him, up to the point of dissolving my guild entirely. Waiting for some answers from Mikal while I investigate things internally, but I do want to say one thing because it seems to be the working assumption among some people: Shining is NOT in my guild.

I already gave you a plan. I will tell one member to out. You reveal your member, then I will reveal the other. Do you accept?

Pie pushing to lynch Rex? Thats scummy as fuck. They declared they believe Rex was not scum and now pressure them to reveal information or die because...? Sounds scummy as hell to me. You do not town read a slot then advocate to kill them when they do not do what you want.

Im fine lynching him for 2 reasons:

1) He has actively shown he’s willing to protect potential scum so he can pursue his guild wincon, which by definition is anti-town

2) Lynching him helps me get closer to achieving my guild wincon, which I don’t really care about. Idc if I lose as long as we catch scum. But if the other side wants to play hard ball, I can play too

let me ask u it this way. u know for a fact u r town, and someone is claiming a result on u. u, knowing ur town, automtically know the results are wrong or the person with the results are lying with the second being less likely. pie has the added benefit of being able to confirm himself. wut do you do in this situation?

Exactly.

Is Pie confirmed town with their claim? I would say in no way. The best evidence is the lack of a counter claim. We know that their guild only got 1 recruit D1 and do not know who (if anyone) was recruited past then. We have not seen a single person step forward and claim that "Yes, Pie was the original guild owner" and absolutely nothing has been confirmed in the slightest. Yet now they are again pressuring the only revealed guild member to out their people and role because.... Uhh... Fucking why?

Literally what scum motive do I have here. Literally zero. REF is refusing to state who his guild mate is when they can be scum. He is PRIORITIZING HIS GUILD over killing scum.

So I am going to say this as kindly as I can. I think the town is fucking stupid here. Lets unpack what happened logically-

We have Rex- A guild leader confirmed recruit to a guild. They voice a red check on Pie. Cool.

Pies response- Starts out with them demanding a full role claim voicing its necessary for their confirmed defence.

Then Pie evolves into "Well tell me if you told your guild mates who you would target! Its critical to my claim and I must know and there is no reason to hide it!"

Then Pie finally reveals. Oh shit- Their claim had absolutely nothing to do with Rex's role? The question of if the guild members of Rex's people knew checking them was a thing did not even have any bearing at all on their alignment claim or confirming that they are town? Hmmm. Interesting.

At this point Pie has utterly and completely lied. The question is why. Scum would obviously want a full role claim and to know who was recruited and unlocked town powers. Lets pause for a second before I ramble about the rest and consider this. That Pie absolutely lied demanding information they did not need acting like it somehow was critical to them being cleared and now it seems like its total bullshit.

Lol what did I lie about. If I know I’m mod confirmed town, and I believe that REF got a red check on me, I want to make sure that

A) REF isn’t lying - which I realized he likely isn’t because it’s a suicide wish

B) REF told his guild mates because they have an incentive to either frame me, or redirect REF to implicate me

C) It is critical information, and now we’re stuck at an impasse because REF refuses to say who’s in his guild because they’re likely scum, and if we lynch that scum, he loses to my guild.