Originally Posted by Mag1cman on 9/5/2026 at 8:08 AM (post #1135)
My thought about the coin toss was my thought at the time. It was how I felt about the situation. My wording wasn;t that I was going to flip a coin, but that I might.
#1096
Horrible thing to ever do in LYLO, but you know that. The scummy part is saying that, just to come up with a mega case on someone a few hours later lol. Shows you had to convolute reasons to scum read a townie, when you were literally just moments before saying you town read both players so much that you thought the best bet was a coin toss gamble.
By far your weakest argument; it's like you're grasping for whatever you can at this point.
Your entire case is that I am scummy for lynching scum. Talk about grasping at straws mate.
This was the defense I said I recalled. Yes, everyone is town, except the recruit. But #436, when you call Mikal "probably town," you're treating him like he couldn't be the recruit. It's TMI.
I mean if you really want to pick apart that with semantics, you could spin it however you want. I am not willing to account for the recruit target over hunting for the known scum member. I explained why I town read mikal for his claim accuracy to the role, plus how the role doesn't make sense being on the scum team. He could only be a recruit if scum, was my point.
And I don't find this to be a towny approach. Again, townies know that they could die. So townies are going to do what analysis they can before going out. Not just for the whole Pie+Kohai thing, but also for what happens after Pie is lynched. You not wanting to look into the recruits is exactly my point. You were convinced Pie was scum, you knew he was the lynch, and yet instead of moving on and working on the next steps for town, you sat on your laurels.
All this talk about me not finding the recruit, but you waffled about making a decision for 2 days into LYLO about the recruit. You can't act like you weren't pretending to be phased by the Yakuza lynch then all of a sudden act holier than thou about others not being able or willing to solve it immediately. My focus was pie, who I was pretty damn confident was scum. It's not in my hands to solve the whole game by dp2, and if I died as a vanilla town got 100% value from my role.
I wasn't fully buying into his role, but yes, I was noting there was a real chance he could've been town. His claimed role had matched some of his DP1 behavior. And yes, he was the obvious target for framing.
But that's only a possibility. He also had really scummy behavior around Kohai, and seemingly (in hindsight, clearly) pasted part of a post of his from scum chat. I had resolved to hammer him if someone else didn't do it. I just decided to use the rest of time in the DP to get my thoughts out before hammering.
I mean at that point you probably thought pie wasn't worth saving anymore. You probably initially wanted to vote with him thinking there was a real shot at getting a mislynch that you could explain your way out of, but when you saw the crowd wasn't leaning that way, pussied out.
This is pedantic. We can argue about what counts as alphaing up, but the point is that you engage people directly. I only brought up last game to add to my point; it's not the point itself.
But I just proved that your example of last game isn't the same thing as what you are attempting to accuse me of now, showing it's a completely convoluted point.
You can only switch away from Pie if the rest of town does. Otherwise, town calls you out for switching up.
I'm not saying you're scummy for pushing Pie, I'm saying I'm not giving you town credit for it. The thing I'm calling you scummy for is not doing much to explore who the recruit could be.
You didn't know who the recruit was either until literally yesterday, so what did "exploring" do? If anything exploring the recruit seems more like setting up mislynches. Like you did with mikal lol
This is the one thing you gave yes. But it's not much at all. It's just random shade at Magoroth. At a time when Pie could've easily been fake distacing with Magoroth. You didn't explore anyone else or give thoughts on anyone else until DP3. But DP2 was the towny time to do it.
Because you say it is? Hard dis-agree. Im not divulging in WIFOM that could distract from a scum lynch when there is plenty of time to do that in further day phases. If I die, that's in the rest of towns hands. Town aren't expected to try and solve the whole game days in advance in the off chance they die, in fact they rarely do.
Yes I agreed with you on that specific point, but you drawing so much attention to it to me specifically reads like buddying.
I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything, because I genuinely did not understand how he was town confirmed off of that, and maybe you picked up on something with it I didn't. Hardly buddying.
To an extent, this is valid. But then if it's a bad move, then he could do it. FMPOV, it's 50/50 whether he went for Magoroth or you, two options that I wouldn't have considered. So the WIFOM above the WIFOM is less about who doesn't seem like a good option, but more about which of the two bad options, chosen to throw town off, is more likely to carry the rest of the game. And that's you.
I mean the whole thing is complete wifom, its just the wifom you choose to believe, because it supports your narrative. I hard disagree that I am the best recruit target in this scenario. Also me and pie have very different mafia playstyles. You on the other hand work way better with him than I do, and are probably one of the best scum players on the site. I can see scum pie recruiting you all day.
Sure, but if Pie can get the rest of town to townread him, you can easily stop sussing Pie as well. It was a desperate situation for Pie.
I mean by that logic, he kind of did get close to lynching mago, a couple people mentioned supporting him. I stayed true to lynching him that whole time. You didn't. You are accidentally making the case for yourself being scum here.
Two people can have the same argument. Are you going to deny that I've had plenty of my own argments?
This is a read on Pie as much as it is on you btw. Distancing is the level one WIFOM play. Fake distancing someone is the level two play. Pie is doing everything he can to throw town off; he's not going to go for level one, he's going to go for whatever thinks is the exact level above what town is thinking. Wheh it comes to such hard distancing, it's proven that town doesn't usually think into the second level.
Pie was the heaviest suspect at the end of day one, and the pressure picked RIGHT back up at start of dp2. It got worse when thoth revealed he was guilty. If you have a guilty on you, and your only argument was "I was framed" you know you are cooked. Getting a mislynch off on literally anyone before you die is the ONLY play pie can make.
My point is that what I think happened is that you were hoping Magoroth would tunnel me. And if that fails, you buddy up to me, which is why you went out of your way to point out MAgoroth's self clear attempt to me. And if that doesn't work, then it's a good old-fashioned Mexican standoff, where you can try to use you being on Pie all game for town cred (even if it's not a towny as you assert- you obviously can use try and use it to convince MAgoroth)
I think you were doing the exact same thing for most of the day phase. Difference was I genuinely town read both of you, and made a giant mega post explaining possibilities of you guys being both town and motives you could have had for being scum. You just waffled and claimed to be willing to do a random vote, before randomly coming up with a mega case on me. This was actually YOUR strategy, but you caved to the pressure and were worried after mago mentioned lynching you, so knew your options were limited.
Well, kinda yeah. You didn't really push or pressure or press or investigate anyone but Pie last DP. Yes there was the shot at Magoroth for potential distancing, but the exception was so rare it proves the pattern.
I had found both scum off of behavior already. I townread everyone else. Even you admittedly. You played an amazing scum game.
You've got an hour left. I trust you to make the right decision. Magic played this one as well as he could, but he tried to save pie day phase two, and tried to use shoddy reasoning around his results to paint mikal as scum. While mikal didn't do himself any favors, magic had the worst argument for lynching him out of anyone. He was willing to vote based on a coin flip yesterday, and is now coming out of nowhere with a case on me that I bussed pie, despite my logic being consistent with my dp1 logic about pie. He had to convolute a case against me because he had nothing, but was forced into making a decision because he needs a mislynch here.
If you look at wylted last day phase he was suspecting magic, which is why magic had to kill wylted going into LYLO. Magic couldn't risk that bias against him in the most critical phase of the game for scum to win.
Again, it's easy to be on Pie when:
-You know he's scum
I knew he was scum dp1, it was blatantly obvious when kohai wouldn't vote for him at EOD
-Switching up and townreading him would look scummy (unless the rest of town does so)
So scum reading scum is scummy, and what, your town read on him was townie? lol okay
-You can't vote him, so your bussing is limited in how much it harms Pie
I was an active voice against him, regardless. Blame mikal for taking away my voting power. I pretty publicly said I would never support a mago lynch over pie in any circumstance, and there was always a real possibility mago was lynched there. I never considered it once.
My point remains. You didn't do much to address other things going on, help town out in case you died in the night.
Because kohai was dead, and pie was about to be lynched. Anything else is pure wifom about the recruit. If anything analyzing vote analysis and who supported him or was against him is the best thing town can do. Ironically you supporting pie before he got lynched is what town should have looked at. Wylted did, and he died. lol
Magoroth and I both behaved like we knew we could die. You behaved like you knew you weren't going to die.
Mago was scum's mislynch target, we know that now because he hasnt hammered and is thus confirmed town, so mago was never dying. And how did you act like you knew you were going to die? Im gonna need some explanation here because this point is bad.
Meanwhile, Lunatic didn’t do much of that. He just kinda kicked back and said, welp Pie’s the lynch, see you boys tomorrow
The only other thing we could possibly do is speculate about recruits. Kohai was dead and pie was scum by association. Your faulting me for not guessing the recruit when you yourself couldn’t even come to a decision about it until almost 2 days into lylo?
You say I do almost nothing productive; what’s more productive then being on board both scum the entire game? At least I was consistent with it.
Anyways, I think the writing is on the wall here.
The only real argument to contend with seems to be paranoia that I bussed pie. But when you look at it, I really just stayed on him from my inital FOS on him dp1, nothing really changed at all. My behavior has been 100% the same because I am still town.
Magic on the other hand has changed his perspective on pie between dp1, and 2. If you are looking at behavioral differences, there is more with him then me. To vote me would be to vote be based on sheer WIFOM paranoia, which would be a pretty silly way to lose the game.
Do you find it interesting that magic wanted to put the decision to a coin toss, then out of nowhere just decides to make a deicion after a text wall? Seems he wasn't all that undecided after all. I think he was just hoping me or you would 1 v 1 each other first and make it easy for him, and when that didn't happen he got impatient and convoluted some reasons to vote me lol.
Originally Posted by Magoroth on 9/5/2026 at 4:17 AM (post #1121)
One quick thought while I’m back reading.
It seems very likely that Pie came into DP2 fully expecting not to make it into NP2. With the Yakuza recruitment going off on NP1, they very likely planned a hard bus on Pie, and it’s very probable they paid excessive attention to optics so as to ensure the converted person wouldn’t seem scummy; in other words there’s a decent chance Pie would’ve tried to interact with their converted target in ways you wouldn’t expect scum to do
Unfortunately this doesn’t really help me much because he did this with both of you, he called Mag1c confirmed Town and he continued the 1v1 with Lunatic a bit. It is possible he was trying to frame Luna by deliberately ignoring his posts (shit like “Your mind is set anyways” etc)
If anything I was ignoring pies posts. He tagged me multiple times and I stopped doing the line by line thing because there is no point in arguing with scum lol
Mago hasn't hammered, so that's a relief. I guess it is magic. I really thought he was town too lol. Fuck me he's good.
Meanwhile, Lunatic:
#436 Just a fast clear for no reason. I receall his defense when I asked him about this. But how do you not thyink about the possibility of Mikal being yakuza'd here?
You left out my response to this: https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/83/from-mafia---day-4?page=24&comment_number=688
From my POV he could only have been the recruit. The role made perfect sense with the character plus kohai had already given pie up by association by not hammering him at the end of dp1. Town kohai goes for pie any day there, instead of just conienently dis-appearing and not responding to people's pings. I wasn't buying kohai was that dead set on rex, he just wanted a mislynch literally anywhere else but pie. With a kohai+pie scum team in mind, everyone is town except the recruit.
The rest of his DP2 is interesting to me. He's obviously swinging his dick around against Pie, but with everyone else he's cool as a cucumber. He doesn't inquire much into anyone but Pie. It feels like he doesn't feel any pressure to get his reads out before being nightkilled. Now sure Thoth and Magoroth were more likely at the time, but you always want to inquire, grill people more just in case. And he doesn't really do that.
Really doesn't make sense to hunt for a recruit when you already know the OG scum team. I said "The one thing I can agree with pie on is that we should be hunting the OG scum now, and looking into the recruits later."
I didn't want to distract any discussion away from pie to focus on pure wifom, knowing pie is likely to sneak himself out of a lynch. At least I wasn't buying into pies fake role like you were lol.
Yes alphaing up against a scumread is Lunatic's town meta. I had him do it with me last game to get Mikal to townread him. But the fact that he doesn't really do anything like that against anyone else feels meh. It's easy to alpha up on Pie when he knows Pie is scum. Even easier when he can't add a vote to hurt Pie. And yeah he could try and speak in Pie's defense, but that would look sus. Better to just wait and see if Pie can get himself townread. Even then, he still has to secure two more mislynches.
1.I didn't "alpha up" to you last game. I even told you in the scum chat that game that we were doing weak ass distancing. At most I was just defending myself from you, it was hardly similar to my read on pie which was purely based on behavioral inconsistencies and logical inconsistencies against thoth vs kohai.
2.That doesn't explain why my read is exactly the same as it was dp1, with absolutely 0 deviance. It's almost like I am just town and been pressing the same read I had since I had to pull teeth to try and get pie lynched dp1, and no one was listening to me. Again your reads weren't consistent, so its kind of interesting you use me being right about pie as an argument that I am scum lol. Kind of damned if I do damned if I don't type of argument.
Technically true, but where's your main theory Lunatic?
What exactly are you asking? The post you linked is pretty straightforward. Nothing crazy, we all should have been suspecting a distancing play there.
Lunatic's post to me about being confused with why Magoroth thinks he should be townread read like he's trying to lead his buddy in a direction. But Magoroth thinking he's oh so towny for that is weird
So I am buddying you, but in the very next sentence you agree with my point that it doesn't clear him?
And that leads more to Lunatic than it does to Magoroth.
And that's the exact WIFOM pie would expect people to use, which is precisely why he wouldn't do it, or why it would be a bad move.
My read on Pie's plan is that he recruited Lunatic to remove one person sussing him.
Except for I didn't ever stop sussing him lol
Lunatic calls out the potential distancing between Pie and Magoroth, helping the plan. Should Pie go down here, Lunatic has a target he can eventually make use of in a 1v4, if town agrees they are distancing.
Now you are echoing the same argument mikal made, which is funny because I've been townreading him despite that, and even saying that its highly possible that pie was attempting a last minute hail mary.
DP4 comes, and Magoroth enters without a tunnel on me. Instead, he's openminded. So Lunatic plays along. He has two ways to win. One, take advantage of my push on Mikal from last DP. Two, buddy with me against Magoroth. I've townread him up to this point. Plus, him being against Pie all game has got to be good for some towncred, right?
This arugment works all three ways for all of us lol. Doubly so for you, before you voted me.
and smooth talker Lunatic is scum Lunatic."
Dont think ive ever been called a smooth talker lol interesting take.
I’ll respond to magic in depth after my concert tonight
VTL: Mag1cman
I mean I am town. I guess if mago hammers its GG. Can't respond to any of that now. Will be on late tonight.
I know Yakuzas suck, but I’m a little disappointed in the lack of activity here in Lylo. It’s not the best sign for a successful endgame.
I will be sleeping then have a concert this evening, so if activity suddenly sparks today I might not be available for most of it. But I will do my best.
Okay let's break things down a bit.
With magic, his early activity and investment was definitely his town meta. Obviously he would have been town dp1 no matter what, but you dont really see a drop off come day phase two. He maybe isn't as paranoid as I would expect of town magic, but his reads early were pretty accurate.
The biggest thing that can be used against him is his kind of buying into pies BS. Kind of hard to completely fault him or anyone for that in hindsight, even knowing pie was scum. He was claiming an investigative result and it seemed catered toward making magic town read him. Magic like me, was also pretty hard on pie dp1. I can see pie using that watcher result to garner town cred from magic. Sucking up to someone who scum reads you is something pie could do. He was doing it to me as well pretty much all of dp2, and would just say I was tunneling him whenever I wouldn't buy into his bs.
The thing with magic's role and the lie going into it about being roleblocked, I don't know. I can see what the intended strategy was, so I won't fault him for lying there since he technically didn't ever need to come clean about not being roleblocked. His "info" on mikal was pretty shoddy, I thought so from the start since a lot of it was made on presumed grammar about mikal's posting style when in actuality it was a null tell. The result trips me up with him being scum. I kind of expecting magoroth to start the day phase tunneling that, in which case I would have thought mago was scummier, but the fact that it hasn't been brought up is interesting.
I was town reading magic for that whole thing because I didn't think he would be do that as scum, I think he genuinely thought his result meant something there, and maybe got a bit tunnel minded on it. Also that's a lot of WIFOM to play into to go into a 1 v 1 death match in LYLO.
As scum he could of just thought no one would call his bluff in lylo, and he would probably be right, but at bare minimum that strategy just draws a ton of unwanted attention to himself. I don't see why he would do this as scum. He came into day phase 4 pretty paranoid sounding about being set up as a mislynch by being left alive.
So my gut tells me that magic isn't scum because I just don't see the strategy behind any of what he is doing. Magic is someone who I have a lot of respect for his scum game, especially after watching him in Ted Lasso. He is one of the most underratted scum players on the site. The whole thing with mikal really doesn't strike me as him just trying to grab a mislynch. Also I just played with magic as scum and I just don't see any blaring similarities in his play or deviances from his dp1 play.
Looking at mago, I do town read him as well, if I didn't I would have lynched him already, or would have helped pie lynch him to prove his role. With my recent though about pie maybe wanting to bus after being caught up by being "too linked" to kohai though, it is starting to make me consider the possibility that it was a bus even heavier. Pie knew he was cooked, his options were limited. Trying to gain mago town cred is probably the last play he could make. Like part of me feels like that is just way to simple to be the answer, and wants to dismiss that as pie just trying to get one more hail mary lynch off before he dies the next day, which is also in character for pie.
So the last thing I really want to talk about is the wylted kill. Why was he killed and who does that kill benefit the most?
Wylted had runs ins with both magic and mago.
Wylted had a couple of posts suggesting he thought magic was scum:
https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/83/from-mafia---day-4?comment_number=978
https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/83/from-mafia---day-4?comment_number=983
So even if I behaviorally don't think magic was scummy, there is enough to suggest he has a lot of motive to kill wylted, as he wouldn't want to be in a LYLO situation with him. The same could be said about me since mikal kept saying he thinks wylted would vote me in LYLO, but I don't think he would have actually and never saw wylted really confirm that to mikal. Magic also said wylted could have been killed to set him up as a mislynch, so that is something I am heavily willing to consider as well, because that is definitely something pie could concoct with mago.
As far as mago goes, the same could almost be said for him.
Wylted says: "If you flip innocent I am going to pursue mago anyway. Don't think your death will be in vain if you flip guilty maybe not, but an innocent flip and I won't be able to see past him"
And Mago later responds "Why me"
https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/83/from-mafia---day-4?comment_number=767
Which could suggest paranoia around wylted in a LYLO situation with him.
He also was pretty adverse to wylted in DP2:
"I think Wylted is scummiest, I abandon what I said ab Mac1cman. Followed by IMO Mikal for basically stating he wanted to confirm himself noe that Yakuza is dead. This is the type of fake derp he drops as scum. Ofc its also possible its a genuinr mistale, idk how Yakuza works in general."
https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/83/from-mafia---day-4?comment_number=597
The early adversity is also a reason he could have killed wylted thinking wylted would could have a past grudge on him, since he was also scum reading him back and they had a bit of a back and forth about it.
The WIFOM goes the same way against both players though so the idea that wylted was killed to frame someone is losing some legitimacy since a wylted kill could look bad for either of them.
This is why Yakuzas are almost more hated than Tailors lol.
With mago the biggest thing I think he is town for is his last day phase. If he was scum he could have easily bandwagoned with mikal to get one of his targets, which was me or magic. I guess there is pretty big value in getting mikal lynched too, so its not completely off the table that there was scum motivation there.
The biggest question I think for me is about pie and bussing him. Would pie do it? Sure. Did he, or would he?
Pie is not a notorious busser, he has done it but for pie to do it he has to think there is a lot of value. I had one game on DART where pie was scum and bussed casey with an investigative result. He ended up winning that one, but it was a very close call and I very nearly hammered him for it. To be honest, just haven't seen him bus much since then. Him not bussing kohai dp1, could have been bad for him though and was a large part of why I pieced together they were linked, since he wasn't using consistent logic about thoth that he has used on kohai in the passed. So him not bussing is what drew all that attention to him in the first place. Part of me thinks pie wouldn't want to risk that again, so the mago think could have been an actual bus attempt to distance himself.
That or it was what it seemed like; A last minute hail mary to get at least one mislynch before his inevitable downfall.
I am pretty torn on this but I can see it both ways. Just have to think how pie would think.
Can you respond to 1074
K
Gonna need something form you brother. I was just praising your activity and effort lol
Wow, woke up and no one has posted? This is giving me a bad feeling
Going to bed, ill be back on this evening/night time
Originally Posted by Mag1cman on 9/3/2026 at 8:12 AM (post #1083)
I ISO’d Magoroth but I have yet to compare to Lunatic’s iso
Also been grinding pokemon champions. 5 days left in the season and I’m at ~#12,000 globally. Top 10,000 is master ball 2; top 1,000 is MB1. I think I can get the former, the latter is tougher.
Never got to master ball, but I didn’t play champions. I’ve been playing Pokemon Revolution though, want to start getting into the PVP when I finish all four campaigns and start learning good strategies.
We still have plenty of time, no rush. I would like to hear a bit more from magic also.
Originally Posted by Magoroth on 9/3/2026 at 6:37 AM (post #1079)
Originally Posted by Lunatic on 03/09/2026 at 14:34 (post #1077)
Originally Posted by Magoroth on 8/30/2026 at 9:15 PM (post #726)
I mean y’all can argue all you want, I’m down to call Pie’s gambit here because it would be really funny if it blew up in his fafe and outed his partner lol
Why were you down to call this gambit if you were lying about your role? Did you think people wouldn’t call you out on it? What is the benefit to this play from a town standpoint?
I couldn’t really stop at that point and reveal I was lying, or 1) it would have awfully seemed like a convenient lie since Pie was pushing me, and 2) I wanted them to think my role was real. So they would actually be afraid of hammering me if I was ever at L-1 and thus the other scum could be outed
Okay, fair enough, thanks
Originally Posted by Magoroth on 8/30/2026 at 9:15 PM (post #726)
I mean y’all can argue all you want, I’m down to call Pie’s gambit here because it would be really funny if it blew up in his fafe and outed his partner lol
Why were you down to call this gambit if you were lying about your role? Did you think people wouldn’t call you out on it? What is the benefit to this play from a town standpoint?
@magic
In post 505 you seem to be questioning pie was recruit. However at the end of dp1 you seemed you were leaning towards the OG scum team being pie/kohai as can be seen in 373.
What changed between those two posts that made you think pie was not paired with kohai as the original scum team?
In post 642 you said you were fully cleared. What is this based on?
is it: "like you'd have to think Pie recruited me, and lied about watching me to "clear me." Good luck arguing that."
If so, why wouldn't be pie lie about watching you if you were scum together? Especially if he is scum, and already knows they didn't visit you, its a relatively safer bet isn't it? Only other roles they would have to gamble that around would be if you were randomly copped by thoth or mikal, but a watcher result with no visitor is hedging his bets either way, might as well do it on someone they know they didn't visit, especially if that person was previously town and pie thinks he can use his result for town cred.
Thats all I got for you for now, I'll read some more later, and get to some questions for mago too. Still reading through your guys ISO's.
Your overall activity (200) posts and the content in them seems very reminiscent of your town games, obviously you were at least town dp1, but I don't see a lot of drop off or deviance from your original posting style. If you are scum, you have blended in with your town posting style well.