Mestari

Slight sus on Vader's opening posts to the DP. Feels preplanned.

Alyssa, wrt #30, why does it matter if Ref knows what to do with an extra night action? Short of being a vig and double miss killing, what is the downside?

A mechanical note: The existence of Alyssa's role is logistically problematic. What if Alyssa submits her action 5 minutes before the end of the night? This necessitates extending the NP in a way that mod confirms the ability. What if somebody submits their action and then gets doubled later? To what extent will Mikal to to contact them without success prior to just posting the next DP? I don't see how this role fits into the structure of Mafia logistically without creating problems. That said, this assumes Mikal thought about those problems.

Another note is that my interpretation of my questions to Mikal indicates that he didn't think about how my role would interact with an ascetic who has an active role tied to it. Just a thought.

#33 That part.

#36 We don't play DP2 around tailors.

#38 Lowkey kinda town.

#46 I still don't get why not acting is better than doubling a role that can't benefit from it. What's there to lose? You never said your role has bullets.

#47 I like this.

#50 Let's assume Thoth was town. With 12 non-mafia players, why did you assume you, of all people, would get redirected? Moreover, why would mafia redirect to themselves?

#54 Pie is looking much better this DP.

#57 Big fan.

Alyssa, did you ask what happens if you don't act and mafia redirect you? Are you forced to act?

This redirect paranoia really isn't feeling good to me. Do you waive as an unclaimed cop or tracker NP1 because what if you get redirected to mafia?

#62 A missing element of that REF, with a strong enough role, can just choose not to waive and then it overrides the recruit. If I were to live through the night and to be recruited, with the roleblocker dead, I would not waive my night action to allow a recruit. This also means that guild leaders probably shouldn't recruit me because I don't give a fuck about the guild win con, but yeah, my plan would end the game.

#63 Heard.

#66 This doesn't address why they would redirect onto you.

#70 A low effort post. I'd expect Alyssa to be more thorough, for example clarifying that I started the wagon and TUF helped drive it from there. Kohai's original vote was baseless and without context. For all we know it could have been a distancing vote that they got married to when the wagon very shortly after became inevitable. They didn't know at the time that I would call out Thoth's slip. All that said, I give Alyssa leniency on low effort because I know she plays her D&D game every Sunday and based on the time of the post she was already late.

#71 Open yourself up to unnecessary risk, or the town? Odd word choice.

I know people sus Kohai for claiming credit for the wagon on Thoth. I know we all know they weren't responsible for it. However I do believe that they believe they were responsible for it and I believe credit matters to them on a personal level. I really like the effort in #73 and between Thoth and Alyssa, if Alyssa flips madia then I feel comfortable with Kohai not being mafia. I am also still of the believe that their pressure on me was a misunderstand and not opportunistic.

#75 I like this. Vader has had a spot on my mind as possible scum and nothing has helped remove them from the PoE. Worth noting that, if I remember correctly, Supa is also capable of telling Thoth that I am a fear kill target. On that note, I vaguely remember a game I was town and died NP1 or 2 and thought Alyssa was town because "she wouldn't kill me early". This was a projection because I don't tend to kill good players early as scum since I want a challenge and, let's face it, most players are not challenging to me as scum. In the game Alyssa was scum. So her seeing me as a fear kill target and vocalizing that in the scum chat checks out.

I'm going to call it here tonight. Obviously Wylted and TUF are town. I'm comfortable with Banana, Rex, and Wryly. I'm okay with Kohai. I like Whiteflame. I'm coming around on Pie. Alyssa and Awesome are mafia. That leaves Shining and Casey who I have no feelings about, Magic is the same. Who the fuck is David and who the fuck is skep. Helz I honestly can't find anything about them that makes me feel they are town. I don't scumread them either. I just feel like they are present without being meaningful.

With characters mattering, there's an element of solving the game via theme. With roles you can solve on structure. Also with the history of this community, people are really bad at fake claiming.

#396, #399

New players probably won't understand. No offense. The setup was not randomized. I'm probably dying tonight because, as Thoth was told by his partners, I'm too much of a threat. With that said I'll admit that my character is myself. My role was handcrafted for me based on my play style and actions in past games. The value this role has varies from near useless in the hands of a noob and gamebreaking if either of the guild leaders were savvy enough to recruit me. What this means is that Mikal had in mind who he wanted on each team. If there's a TP, it's an experienced player and probably a DDO player. There a certain set of players of which I imagine 2 have to be mafia. TUF, Wylted, and Myself are town. That leaves a minimal group of people who I believe have to be mafia.

An important question while I catch up. Alyssa, is your role such that you cancel the vote at the normal vote count, and then become popular, or was it just 1x lunch proof?

Also, why did it matter if a powerrole got active for you to use your other power? What's the problem with targeting someone you town read and if they don't get recruited, oh well? Why not target me?

To expand on the airmax slot being scum. Part of it is mod psych, but I won't get into that. Part of it is Alyssa's defense of Thoth, assuming she is scum. Alyssa is too good to defend an obviously caught scummate, especially so desperately. I think scum!Alyssa only acts the way she did if she feels she has to. That indicates desperation. Going from 4 mafia to 3 DP1 is not cause for desperation. But if your team is inactive, or worse, mia? That calls for desperation and trying to save the ones who are still contributing. Savvy?

Another note is that Alyssa went from calling me Tim to calling me Mestari when I started scum reading her. She didn't acknowledge my scum reads, which is fair because I withheld my reasoning and simple commented that she was scum. However, the simple shallow comments were enough for her to switch from referring to me by my name to realizing the game is on and calling me by my username.

I'm done with DP1. For fucks sake there was close to 0 value in the last 500 posts. I'm still sitting on Alyssa as mafia. I think the airmax slot is also mafia, without having heard from the replacement yet. If Alyssa flips scum Banana is town, along with I think Rex and Wryly if I'm remembering posts correctly. Basically people who scumread both Thoth and Alyssa before the Thoth wagon got inevitable.

Thoth distancing from Alyssa is also weird, because it makes the pairing more obvious. It would lead me to think that maybe it's a frame job, but why frame someone who people already think is linked to you? Thoth doesn't seem high enough level to do it as a way to exonerate Alyssa, so I'm not going to read too deeply into it.

The fatigue generated from wading through so much spam and pointless posting for the sake of "using the entire DP" feels like more than I care to deal with given the water heater situation I'm already dealing with, but I'll start working on DP2 anyway. If we continue to spam and drag out this game the way we did DP1 you are going to lose me before the game ends.

Sorry I haven't caught up yet. I just moved and the hot water tank failed. I've been dealing with the basement flooding for the past few hours. Please don't hammer and end the day before I can catch up and post my thoughts.

Popped it and DP didn't end or Mikal isn't back yet?

I'm here. I'll finish the last 400 or so posts from last DP then catch up here. I've read a couple of pages of this DP. A few notes,

1) Don't pop Alyssa's popular yet if we haven't already done so. If Alyssa is scum and knows she's getting lynched this DP then it could be a gambit to end this DP early.

2) Kohai saying they started the wagon on Thoth is a joke. This isn't really a point of discussion, just an observation.

3) Night kill going forward is between Lunatic, Wylted, and myself, probably exclusively until the 3 of us are dead. Make of that what you will.

Gn*

I just got home from working another 13 hours. I'm not catching up tonight. You're welcome for Thoth. I'll catch up tomorrow. Fn.

I'm trying to catch up right now but I realize I'm just looking at words without reading them. Too exhausted. I'll look at things in the morning.

I would like someone to name one possible world in which scum!Thoth would defend that supposed slip with a mixup between Mestari and Helz instead of having asked Mikal during signups who Mestari was.

This world

On that note I need to get back to work. Gl people

Every now and again I see someone's post has thumbs up and I look back at mine and see that that never do and I realize I should just go jump off a bridge

On a side note, we say that Mikal is not a bastard mod, but imo telling some members of the town that even if the town wins, they still lose if they are more town than other members of the town (using power roles as the game goes on instead of continuing to recruit in the late game, being willing to lynch within their guild for the better of the town, etc.) is pretty fucking bastard to me. Just saying.

For what it's worth, the VTNL logic hinges on the guilds working together to recruit for multiple nights then agreeing to start using power roles all at once. This is a level of coordination I do not believe we'll achieve.

I'm interested in talking more, but not in a productive, help the town kinda way. I just enjoy solving themes.

When the fuck did we play starcraft

Not all characters relevant to the raid were there.

No, what Wryly is saying is that if mafia are monsters then mechanically they have to be able to join guilds because the OP said makes can be in guilds.

I don't remember our last game played together but clearly it impacted you, so let me apologize for whatever I did or said in the past. I don't think you're an idiot. I just disagreed with the approach of outing as a guild leader and tried to pivot the plan to make the most use of what had happened. I entirely understand how it could come across as particularly harsh when I called you a twat after you claimed. That was me being dramatic in a silly way because the claim came almost simultaneous to me saying for the guild leaders not to claim. It was a Jim panning to the camera moment.

Also, Tarkov grudge? I don't even remember that lol. I was actually thinking about when we played Tarkov together and the good memories which is part of why I've been so shocked at how our interactions this game have gone.

My initial assumption is that we're looking at a Korean vs Japanese hunter split. Player characters just slot in with the nationality of their affiliation.

Yes, I'd love for Wylted to out his recruit and to work with you to recruit different players. Yes, it is greatly in the interest of town to do so. No I don't think he's going to. Yes I've given up on what I feel is the optimal mechanical approach to the game because it began to detract from progressing the game.

I understand that you post at a time that's usually less active. I'm not trying to directly devalue your contributions. I was trying to make catching up easier for the players who were behind. I think if you objectively read back over the post range I told them to skip, you would be hard pressed to say that it would have been a great loss in their understanding of the game up to that point.

I am truly sorry that you are upset, but making it easier for players to catch up and engage is more important than your ego (and yes, getting upset because "Mestari called my posts spam is an ego reaction).

If he's scum it's a shitty fake claim. It can't be verified, and after N0 scum have no reason to waste one of their recruitment attempts on an unrecruitable player just to confirm his claim.

If he's town then unless he has a good 3rd ability, his role doesn't do anything anyway. Not that there can't be neutral or negative utility roles, just that there's not a big mechanical loss in losing his role and it's far outweighed by the ability to analyze the wagon.

Clearly the theme split revolves strong the Jeju Island Arc. Did your character work towards defeating the ants? If so, it's obvious why you would be on the same team as SJW.

They can no longer redirect recruitments and it's at an undeterminable point that they will be able to guild spy. They aren't powerful abilities, they are fake.

I wish I knew if this was just a scripted hint or if it heralds some new development in the game mechanics.

Same. For the record, I don't see where this points to SJW being TP. He's the good guy in the show. If anything it indicates he has powers without joining a guild, and perhaps he might lose them if he joined one. Either way he'd have to yield using his actions to allow guild leaders to continue recruiting, so joining a guild would be negative net utility, especially because SJW is probably some powerful flavor of JOAT. With that said, the more characters there are who can't or won't join guilds, the sketchier Thoth's claim becomes.

--> @Mestari

The guy who can redirect recruits to mafia teammates in order to activate abilities and who is tell you who is in a guild if and only if a mafia teammate is in the guild already.

--> @Wylted

Who claimed that. I think I missed ut

This is essentially what Thoth's claim breaks down to.

1) He can't be recruited

2) If recruited, he could direct the recruit to another player

2a) That was only for N0, so we can no longer verify it

3) He claims that at some point he will be able to tell you who is in a particular guild

3a) I reckon this is just disguising mafia feeding mafia info as an ability

We have 2 abilities that cannot be verified, one of which is apparently not even active anymore. We have this from a character who, in the anime, has no reason to be and to direct a hunter to joining a guild, or any indication that they could acquire insider knowledge about a guild.

I understand the argument that mafia would be given a better fake claim. Another member of the Mafia may have breadcrumbed the fake claim already, or mechanically the fake claim could fit the role of another mafia member better. Further, if I'm mafia and the mod gives me a banger fake claim, I'm not letting the guy who spilled insider information and who is on the hot seat use it. It makes more sense strategically to pair a good mod provided fake claim with a player who is already town read to help remove them from the PoE.

WRT #913/914,

No, I'm not rage baiting. You've multiple times already mentioned that you have made choices to try to get an advantage over Wylted. You can say that you will put finding scum over the guild wincon, but the way you talk about your choices makes it clear that the line lies somewhere in the middle. You prioritize the guild wincon, but only to an extent. It's in the space occupied by that extent in which your self interests to supercedes the interests of the town.

WRT calling your posts spam, no that wasn't personal. The vast majority of posts in that range I called spam were spam, and most of what wasn't didn't offer particularly new insights. I made that comment to players who were already feeling overwhelmed by catching up. Cutting out 100 posts makes the task much less daunting. If you think your posts were unique enough to provide sufficient value to outweigh the players catching up having to trudge through layers of shit to get to your posts, well that's just a difference in evaluation.