SatanLucy

I will accept one of his debates just to show how chatgpt 5.2 is way better than whatever he is using.

"Out of fairness to my significantly inferior opponent I will be giving him a 1 round advantage here"

Yeah, he is still using chatgpt 4 at a time when chatgpt 5.2 is available and even free. I didnt even know we could still use chatgpt 4. the dude is somehow using AI from 2023 or 2024.


"## Superior Persuasiveness
AI agents like GPT-4 outperform humans in online debates..."


Gpt 4 is literally from 2023. He is somehow using outdated AI which talks nonsense. When you ask chatgpt 5.2 this same topic, it doesnt give even close to same answer, and it doesnt give short answers like he does.

He seems to be either using way outdated AI, or instructing AI in such retarded way that it forces AI to give false answers.

I hope you dont get banned for saying that, because I want to play with you more.

Damn, just when I thought you will say something nice

""Improvement" refers to a measurable positive change in conditions"

Now define positive.

Now AI even writes your insults?

Hehe, now go ask AI for definition of "improvement".

"World improvement is not subjective"

Please stop talking nonsense. You don't even know what word "improvement" means.

"AI says that AI is a better debater"

Great, now it even uses circular logic.

So AI is both debater and voter on a same debate? Maybe update your AI so it understands it can't be both debater and voter.

I dont really object to the use of AI. I don't care. But as I said, update your AI app, because current ChatGPT is chatGPT 5 and you seem to be using something much inferior.

"The world has improved massively across objective metrics"

Actually, improvement is always subjective, so you could say that for you, world subjectively improved because AI told you so.

After doing more research, it turns out number of fertility rate to abortion rate is lowest today.

Fertility rate dropped by about 20% in past 20 years. In other words, there are 20% less live births, and likely more than 20% less pregnancies.

So while abortions are higher in year 2023 than in year 2010, number of pregnancies is lower in 2023 than in 2010.

So, to put it simply, you have less pregnancies, but more abortions. that isnt any sign of decreasing abortions, but decreasing number of pregnancies, which is its own harm.

But abortion to pregnancy per woman ratio, or to be more specific, abortion to live birth per woman ratio, is higher today than at most points in history.

While year 2000 did see a lot of abortions, it also saw a lot of pregnancies. today, you have a lot of abortions, but less pregnancies.

In 2000, there were an estimated
6,401,000 total pregnancies in the United States. This total included approximately 4.06 million live births,

In 2010, there were an estimated
6,069,000 to 6,155,000 total pregnancies among women aged 15–44 in the United States. The overall pregnancy rate was 97.3–98.7 per 1,000 women, representing a record low for the 1976–2010 period. These pregnancies resulted in approximately 3,999,000 live births

In 2023, there were
3,596,017 live births in the United States

that is about 12% less births in 2023, from about 4 millions to 3.5 millions. So while there are more abortions in 2023 than in 2010, there are also less births in 2023 than in 2010 and in year 2000.

And same is true for year 1990, 1980, 1970...ect.

Number of live births is lowest today, not any time before. So if we measure abortions to live births ratio, that ratio is highest today, not any time before.

"A lot of abortions being illegal supports my point though?"

No, because number of legal abortions increased in current time when abortion is LESS LEGAL.


"When you control for legality, which goes back and forth, the trend is decreasing."

Decreasing how? We saw a rise in past 6 years despite abortions being less legal than before. Again, if your point is that we have less abortions today than before, that is not true in any year before 1977, not true in years from 2007 to 2023. You cant show a single year in 2007 to 2023 where abortions were higher than in 2023, and 2024 likewise saw an increase.

that is 16 years where abortion didnt decrease. So to claim it is better than before is false.

And when we take into account surveys, the numbers are higher than 1 million abortions per year.

When we take into account that there are actually less pregnancies today than before, it gets even worse, because while number of abortions isnt decreasing, number of pregnancies is.

Approximately 40% to 50% of women who have an abortion in the United States have had at least one previous abortion.

So when we say 1 in 4 women will have an abortion, we also must add that half of that number will have 2 abortions.

So its no longer 40 million women having an abortion, but 20 million having 1 abortion, and about 20 million having 2 or more.

that sums up to 60 million abortions.

And it gets even worse when you take into account those who had more than 2 abortions, which is about 10%.

So per surveys, total number of abortions is over 60 million per current reproductive population, by age 45.


this shows a rise, not fall.

Also, just to add this as well. I see you used guttmacher as a source, but that source also has survey estimates, and these show a significantly different numbers from number of legal abortions.

"A new analysis from the Guttmacher Institute’s Abortion Patient Survey estimates that one in four (24.7%) US women of reproductive age1 will have an abortion by age 45 if the 2020 abortion rate remains constant."

https://www.guttmacher.org/news-release/2024/one-four-us-women-expected-have-abortion-their-lifetime


One in 4 women having an abortion means about 40 million abortions in 30 years, which is somewhat 1,3 million per year, but this doesnt even account for those having more than one abortion in lifetime.

So these survey studies show a much bigger numbers which arent same as legal reports, because survey also reports some illegal abortions.

Also, why cherry pick year 1978 to 1998 (20 years time), and not, lets say time from 2000 to 2026 (26 years time)?

Because that period of 26 years saw an increase in abortion numbers, not decrease. Number of abortions today is higher than in 1977, and past 26 years mostly saw an increase, not decrease.

forgot tag

"Infrastructure was being built for years after Roe v. Wade"

Infrastructure is always built, even today.


"it was still difficult to get legal abortions"

No, as shown by rapid increase in less than 4 years. If you are implying people couldnt reach hospitals because there were no roads, thats not true because people were still reaching and getting abortions in a number which only kept increasing. And argument similar to yours applies today too where some people cant afford legal abortions, or cant get legal abortions.

But again, you dont even know number of total abortions, to even present it, today or back then.


"but the overall trend following the 1980s is downward"

Actually, no, 2022, and 2023, and 2024, and 2025, saw a rise in abortions, not decrease.

So if you are going to cherry pick a specific time period which came decade after legalization, I dont see whats the point, because topic was about world being better than before, and I can likewise find many points in time where world was better than today.

World being made much worse, and then slightly better, and then worse again, is not improvement. thats like saying losing 10 dollars and then getting 5 dollars is improvement.

Abortions were more legal in 1974 than they are today, so actually, more illegal abortions are likely done today than in 1974.

Again, you cant measure "total abortions" outside of legal abortions, and abortions were legalized in 1973, with gradual legalization starting earlier.


"The spike in 1973 was right after Roe v. Wade and states were adjusting to that"

Actually, legal abortions in 1973, 1974, 1975, 1976 wwere lower than today. I can buy that first year, they were adjusting. I cannot buy that someone in 1974 when abortion was legal chose to do abortion outside of legality for some reason, but same not applying in 1980.


"I'm not sure legal abortions were an accurate measure of total abortions until around the 1980s"

And you would know this, how, when you admit you dont know number of total abortions even today?

then by that logic, you dont have accurate measure of total abortions today when abortions are illegal in many states in USA, and abortion is actually not "on demand" almost anywhere in the world.

Update your AI app please.

"Legal abortions and total abortions are not the same thing"

When abortion is legal, we can assume legal abortions are close enough to total abortions.

Legal abortions are higher now than in 1973, 1974...

And as for "total abortions", I dont see how you measure that outside surveys and number of legal abortions.

forgot to tag

"Birth rates are going down for largely the same reasons abortions are decreasing"

Legal abortions are over 5 times higher today than in 1970.


"Fewer unintended pregnancies is a good thing."

Not when women stop wanting to be pregnant at all. Same effect on population as mass abortions.

In 1970, the legal abortion ratio in the United States was approximately
52 per 1,000 live births, or about 193,000 reported legal abortions, according to data from Johnston's Archive and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention | CDC (.gov). This followed the legalization of abortion in a few states, most notably New York, earlier that year.

193,000 legal abortions is much less than 1,1 million legal abortions today.

After legalizing abortions in 1973, US birth rates have basically halved.

they were 2.8 per woman in 1970. then after 1973, dropped to 1.8 per woman.

So abortion has actual effects on birth rates which is actually higher than what mere abortion numbers show, because not all abortions are even legally recorded. 1 million is just what is recorded legally.

Are they? Because we currently have over 1 million abortions per year, seeing a rise after 2022.

And also, you have to account abortion per pregnancy rate. Right now its not on any better level than it was in 1960, but its even worse because there are actually less pregnancies today and lower birth rate.

Also, it is questionable how to measure abortion rates.


In a 2024 survey, about 14 % of U.S. women of reproductive age (typically ages 18-49) reported that they have had at least one abortion at some point in their lives.

Another large survey found a similar figure: about 1 in 7 women (≈14 %) reported having had an abortion.


this places number of abortions at over 1 million per year, which is made worse by fact that number of pregnancies in USA decreased.

U.S. pregnancies and birth rates have
generally declined since a peak in 2007, reaching historically low levels in 2023. While teenage pregnancies have fallen by roughly two-thirds since 2007, birth rates have shifted, decreasing for women under 30 but increasing for women in their 30s and 40.

So now you have very high number of abortions and rising, but pregnancy number decreasing.

In 2024, the estimated number of clinician-provided abortions in the United States was
over 1.1 million, marking a continued rise despite state-level bans

I can do gish gallop silly AI too:


Abortion rates in the U.S. and some other regions have risen despite increased restrictions
. In the U.S., abortions rose by 8% between 2023 and 2024, driven by telehealth and out-of-state travel, reaching the highest levels in recent years. Similarly, England and Wales saw an 11% increase in abortions in 2023.

In 2023, there were
over 1 million (approximately 1,034,000 to 1,038,000) abortions in the United States, marking an 11% increase from 2021.


1 million murders per year in USA alone, wow what a wonderful world

"If the world were truly getting worse across key metrics"

You dont get to choose what key goals are, sorry. And trying to gish gallop AI responses? Cute. And still cant deny anything I said.

People already believe me. Ask anyone. No one really thinks world is getting better. It doesnt matter what goal you set. Homicide rates are greatly up when you realize abortion is homicide. Mortality rates are greatly up when you realize a lot of people cant even have family anymore. Depression rates, suicide rates, mental illness rates, disorders rates... highest ever. there are more homeless people today than before in USA.

But yes, keep using your copy paste AI. As I said, when you succeed in one goal, you fail in another. Such is the necessary logic of the world, which your AI knows nothing about. Maybe ask AI to explain taoism to you, and why everything good has a bad side.