Wryly

Originally Posted by Thoth on 7/30/2026 at 7:21 PM (post #167)

Originally Posted by Banana on 7/30/2026 at 6:14 PM (post #162)

bcuz ur the only other claimed role that could result in an action failed, on a night when my action failed but u claim to have commuted.

So you are suggesting that I Commuted and you were redirected? Wouldn't that mean Wryly has to have an unclaimed redirect?

If you're scum then you likely didn't commute, so I think the argument is that you used a role which produced her "action failed."

Originally Posted by Banana on 7/30/2026 at 7:17 PM (post #166)

Originally Posted by Wryly on 7/30/2026 at 5:16 PM (post #164)

I'm here. Made a quick dinner.

wheres ur head at right now?

I'm still leaning Thoth. I just don't get his explanation for his VTNL of wylted. He said he was ready to vote, we had him, and then he escapes the noose and we lose another townie. You being blocked and him claiming a blocking role isn't a great look, though there could be other explanations for that. I remember in Ranger's Apprentice mafia he and Mag1c had a tense scumchat; I can't imagine him and wylted together would be much better. I feel iffy about this because you and Mikal weren't very active and I don't have a huge body of evidence to go off of, but my gut is saying you're town based on what I've seen in this DP.

I'm here. Made a quick dinner.

I have to make Gran dinner and then I'm on.

^

Why did you switch from Mikal to Lunatic DP1?

I wonder if scum!Thoth would really say he sees wylted as almost an Innocent Child on DP1. Scum don't normally townread each other that hard, though he did immediately walk it back the next DP.

Originally Posted by Banana on 7/30/2026 at 12:01 PM (post #143)

https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/7t/candace-owens-cinematic-universe-dp4?comment_number=104

So his protective could only have mitigated the damage. Can you ask how your role would interact with his? Like what happens if you roleblock someone and he rolestops the same target?

Originally Posted by Thoth on 7/29/2026 at 9:58 PM (post #109)

Re: the VTNL thing. Yes, my logic was to extend the game by a DP to get more investigative results. That should go without saying. Now that I think about it, it probably would have been wiser to lynch wylted immediately and VTNL later. My VTNL/Commuter play was too risky. But I did it.

But why is that remotely worth it? Why would you let a scum live just to *maybe* get a few more investigative results on the chance that you *might* stop the NK? This is the datum I keep returning to the most with you. This seems so blatantly anti-town that it almost tips the scales back into "must be town" territory. In fact, that's how Pie seemed to read it at the time.

Originally Posted by Thoth on 7/30/2026 at 12:11 AM (post #118)

Banana's analysis today has been good, in my opinion. There's just not much context from previous day phases to put it in.

I'm very sus of Wryly because of her claim's overlap with wylted's JOAT and because her interactions with wylted come off as theatrical to me. I think the WIFOM of why Wryly and wylted did or didn't do certain things, like in post #86, can be explained by a dysfunctional scum team.

Although, now that I think about it, Banana's claim is really fucking scummy and could just be her straight-claiming. Not sure I buy her claim as town more than Wryly overlapping with wylted, though.

It's definitely unusual. Overlapping roles made more sense in the Ruyi Zhuan game imo; there were more players and tiers of abilities. I'd rather lose because of the setup than because of playing badly, so if this tips your vote I'll be at peace with it. If it happens it happens. As for theatrics, shrug. The joke fallout legitimately irritated me and I tried to diffuse it with humor too much I guess. Can see looking back how it might look scummy. When wylted first CC'd me I figured he was probably town because scum have no reason to do that, so I was irritated that an innocent joke led to the outing of the MC and a PR. Then it just led to more and more distraction that scum could use -- Vader thought I was trying to bait a townie out because of it, I thought Lunatic wasted a Cop on me for it, you were wondering if I was wylted's scummate because of it. Like imagine if you'd said you were Banana's shift key and a perma-commuter and it led to a CC and being scumread. Idk, just got under my skin.

Originally Posted by Banana on 7/30/2026 at 11:50 AM (post #141)

Originally Posted by Wryly on 7/30/2026 at 9:42 AM (post #140)

What does the setup look like if either of your roles are fake? Without a Rolestopper and Commuter, we're down two protectives. That leaves an every night Doctor and an even night Roleblocker for protection. Is that enough for a 9p with Lovers in it? The Doctor is one of the Lovers, so if he or his Lover is wiped out you lose your Doctor immediately, and you've got only a Roleblocker left for protection, which could hurt as much as help.

well i explored this a bit with thoth, and im not really seeing a ton of "protective" utlty with his role. he said rex said he cant protect both lovers with the role stop, and the commuter only works as a protect if he was able to bait scum into killing him, which he claims he was confident he would do, but it seems shakey to me that scum would have bought that personally. coming down to it, i would say a roleblock has a better chance at stopping a kill then his role does in most cases. regardless the three protectives provids jus as much a problem as the FOUR investigatives lol

Meanwhile if we're down a Strengthener and Roleblocker, we still have Thoth's protectives to make up for our Lovers liability, but we have no counter to wylted's Mirror and whatever interference abilities the other scum may have. Hmm.

i dont think town would need a counter to a 1x mirror. how would u even design to counter that anyway?

I'm not necessarily saying there are too many protectives, I'm just trying to look at if the game is more or less balanced without either you or Thoth's roles being real. And I'm doing that because I'm grasping at mechanical straws lol. Mechanics wise I have jack shit to recommend either of you, and weighing wifom sucks.

I assume Strengthener would work against a Mirror. Like if you had strengthened me and I had watched wylted on a night he mirrored, instead of watching myself I would have successfully watched him, right?

Mikal claimed Mason, which he actually was, in Stereotype mafia. In Alien mafia he straight claimed Engineers but fake claimed Developer; he was actually a JOAT. Hmm.

What does the setup look like if either of your roles are fake? Without a Rolestopper and Commuter, we're down two protectives. That leaves an every night Doctor and an even night Roleblocker for protection. Is that enough for a 9p with Lovers in it? The Doctor is one of the Lovers, so if he or his Lover is wiped out you lose your Doctor immediately, and you've got only a Roleblocker left for protection, which could hurt as much as help.

Meanwhile if we're down a Strengthener and Roleblocker, we still have Thoth's protectives to make up for our Lovers liability, but we have no counter to wylted's Mirror and whatever interference abilities the other scum may have. Hmm.

Originally Posted by Banana on 7/30/2026 at 11:37 AM (post #137)

Originally Posted by Wryly on 7/30/2026 at 9:33 AM (post #135)

Mikal comes straight out the gate claiming one of his roles sounds scummy, so if he was scum, he'd nailed down a fake claim already or was given one by Rex. Would Rex give a Roleblocker/Strengthener fake claim? Doesn't seem like a great fake claim to give your scum players. Sounds pretty sus. If Banana is scum, does that mean scum were given no fake claims and only one character claim, Netanyahu? Her justification for her roles sounded good when I first read them. I need a look back.

well as u point out mikal said his role was scummy so u just have to ask urself if u think someone like him would do that as scum, or if he could come up with something good

I'll look up some of Mikal's previous scum games. But in general I would say good-sounding fake claims are better than "so bad they must be real" fake claim gambits.

Originally Posted by Wryly on 7/30/2026 at 11:33 AM (post #135)

Mikal comes straight out the gate claiming one of his roles sounds scummy, so if he was scum, he'd nailed down a fake claim already or was given one by Rex. Would Rex give a Roleblocker/Strengthener fake claim? Doesn't seem like a great fake claim to give your scum players. Sounds pretty sus. If Banana is scum, does that mean scum were given no fake claims and only one character claim, Netanyahu? Her justification for her roles sounded good when I first read them. I need a look back.

*no fake role claims

Looking back at DP2. In a scum!Thoth world, I have to wonder if Thoth just knew immediately after wylted claimed Candace that he would be found out eventually and tried to get ahead of it -- claim his Rolestopper contradicts wylted's results, be the first to point out Candace broke the pattern of the rest of the character claims. Erika Kirk would have to be a fake claim given by Rex, because after looking up her and Candace, I would expect her to be in the game. Rolestopper is a fake role claim that sounds more plausibly provided by Rex, and 1x Commuter could just be a power he actually has.

Mikal comes straight out the gate claiming one of his roles sounds scummy, so if he was scum, he'd nailed down a fake claim already or was given one by Rex. Would Rex give a Roleblocker/Strengthener fake claim? Doesn't seem like a great fake claim to give your scum players. Sounds pretty sus. If Banana is scum, does that mean scum were given no fake claims and only one character claim, Netanyahu? Her justification for her roles sounded good when I first read them. I need a look back.

Originally Posted by Banana on 7/29/2026 at 11:12 PM (post #114)

i know wryly is busy with her gran so i understand her distance this phase but it feels like both her and Thoth are just not really in this last dp. Thoth was like this the whole game but wryly was actively complaining about activity for most of the game just to kind of… not be here so idk what to make of that or if im over thinking it.

starting to question town reading her. this is lylo and there’s no sense of urgency whatsoever

It's not just my gran. The caregiver of the elderly couple next door is in the hospital and I'm taking care of them plus Gran. So I took on responsibility for their meds, their insulin pump, their diaper changes, their pets, their garden, their bills. If I had known this would happen I would never have joined this game, and I probably won't be joining another for some time.

I agree, but I haven't eaten today and I'm just beat. Sorry guys. I'll have to get back on later.

Originally Posted by Banana on 7/29/2026 at 8:42 PM (post #97)

sorry about ur gran, i know thts gotta be stressful

❤️

Originally Posted by Banana on 7/29/2026 at 12:13 PM (post #89)

if there was a gun to ur head and u were forced to make a decision right now who u think the last scum is who would it be? i know a lot can change in a day and a half, but im curious what ur headspace is in. ive been pretty transparent with mine

I think I'd just say pull the trigger.

Lol. Dark, sorry. I'm really tired.

Gun to my head it would probably be Thoth. The more I think about it, I just can't shake the notion that if you were scum you would've just said that you strengthened me and thus my negative result on Pie must be a lie. I feel like that would be more than enough to get me lynched here. I don't know why they weren't worried about your Strengthener but it could be some unknowable turn of scumchat, idk. Also behaviorally you're coming across pretty townie to me this DP. And I actually didn't even see Thoth's VTNL on DP2 lol. I thought he was just inactive. I should probably think about this more, my reasoning may be too wifom-y. But that's where I'm leaning rn.

Originally Posted by Thoth on 7/29/2026 at 6:23 AM (post #76)

I explained all this with the mislynch math and my Commuter. I was trying to buy us another DP. I knew he was scum, I just had no reason to pull the trigger instantly.

I’m not denying that wylted is smart enough to bus. A Pie/wylted scum team wouldn’t have necessarily shared my reasons for VTNLing or why I wouldn’t have bussed.

I just don't understand why you would want to buy another DP rather than kill scum. Is your argument that even though we knew he was scum, it was advantageous to gather more intel with another night's worth of night actions? But his death and his flip would've been advantageous as well, and your whole plan was predicated on the idea that you could stop the NK, which would only have worked if scum targeted you. That's just a high risk, low reward strategy.

Originally Posted by Banana on 7/29/2026 at 11:09 AM (post #88)

i mean i said all the same stuff already, when u catch up you will see i guess. but yeah im kind of townleaning u now. i have a lot of issues with thoth behaviorally. i started scum reading u but now im doing a bit of a 180

My bad.

Originally Posted by Banana on 7/29/2026 at 8:45 AM (post #85)

i am now realizing not strengthening u kind of made lylo harder than it needed to be. even if I strengthened scum idk how bad the impact would be because i could have confirmed u were lying if u had no results or if u did have results force a 1 v 1 which would have made it a 50/50.

being inactive and inattentive before wasn’t the best. o well

Yeah this is what I'm currently struggling with. My lingering doubt is if you're town, what was scum's plan for your Strengthener? If Thoth is scum here, he knew that if he let you live, he might have to go into LYLO with me saying I saw him visit Pie and you saying you strengthened me. That's a tough corner to be in, he has no choice but to 1v1 me hard. It's like they weren't worried about your Strengthener. I'm weighing whether scum would've been afraid of Pie enough -- or maybe confident enough that you would be wary enough to waive Strengthener -- to let you live into LYLO. Maybe I should also factor in that scum knew wylted would flip 1x Watcher, which gives them an advantage in 1v1 with me.

I'm back. Full disclosure, my brain is a wrung-out sponge that was trampled by a thousand feet and then chewed on by mice. I'll try to catch up.

Hey guys a reminder I'm headed to the hospital and will be busy today. I skimmed but I'll respond more fully when I get back. But as for the Watcher thing, if we were scummates wouldn't I have used wylted's 1x Watcher to produce a result I could use to build towncred? Instead I'm 0 for 2 on my results, which hasn't helped my case at all. And if I was his scummate I think I would've been too wary to claim any role that could link me to him if he was lynched, especially given how recklessly he was playing, which is why I don't get the bus conjecture. Why would I bus someone who would create a problem for me if he flipped? If that was the plan I would've claimed something different.

Originally Posted by Banana on 7/28/2026 at 2:15 PM (post #35)

I didn’t sus pie necessarily but didn’t town read him either. but like i told u b4, i tried to block him because he claimed hated, so i wouldn’t be hurting a power role. let’s say ur town and i roleblocked u for example that would be bad for town. pie was claiming a passive role so I couldn’t have hurt him. i had no way to know he was actually a tracker tho.

as for why i chose to try and roleblock Thoth that seems obv, pie was town bcuz Wylted and him 1v1 and Wylted lost and was scum so pie was guaranteed to be town so my options were a claimed watcher or a rolestopper/comuter and a watcher. blocking u didnt make sense at the time bcuz if pie was an even night tracker it balanced well with ur role. in hindsight if i knew u were a watcher might have made me deliberate it more tho.

Yeah I should rephrase. In DP2, it seemed like a good bet that wylted was scum. He had claimed Candace, which was an outlier. He had claimed a JOAT when there were already two other claimed JOAT Juniors, and he had claimed Vote Sensor, but said he hadn't used it, which seemed incredible (in the original sense of "incredible"). So why not just roleblock wylted? Why did you think there was enough of a chance he was town that it was better to just play it mechanically safe?

Would also like to know why you didn't hammer wylted

^

anyway can u tell me did you just see nothing or did you get a message saying your action failed?

I was told no one visited. I didn't consider Strengthener making the NK unstoppable, completely spaced on it potentially aiding scum as well. Could they have thought it was a safe bet to keep you alive because you'd waive your Strengthener out of an abundance of caution? Or you could just be lying to me about Strengthener. D: I'm trying not to be paranoid that you suddenly started to be active at LYLO. I feel like you'd have a better story about what you did with your Strengthener, but that's wifom.

If I had been roleblocked I'd have received an action failed message. I think Ninja is the only thing it could be. I feel like I'm missing something though. Would wylted have fake claimed 1x Tracker if scum had a Ninja?

can i get ur thots on the balance issue of you being watcher, pie being tracker, luna being cop, and wylted having a watcher?

I've seen the same role on either side of the alignment divide a couple of times but not a lot, so if you sus me for having Watcher I would definitely understand. It's unusual, but so is a Hated that deactivates at DP3 instead of MYLO/LYLO, especially with Lovers in the game. We also don't know the remaining scum's kit bag, which might explain more. Balance analysis is definitely not my specialty. I've voted based on it before and been dead wrong. tl;dr, I don't fucking know.

i might be paranoid but i think they killed pie because he said this: https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/7q/candace-owens-cinematic-universe-dp3?page=3&comment_number=76

try to set me up for a ml maybe hoping ppl would read into that

Yeah. Normally I'd say a player wouldn't be dumb enough to heavily defend their scummate like that, but wylted fucking straight claimed Candace and JOAT, so he was not thinking cautiously this game. That also doesn't look great, because Mikal was pretty inactive and so were you, so a lot of this could be explained by wylted having to make calls without any consultation from a scummate, who I assume normally temper his impulsiveness. Thoth wasn't super active either so that doesn't help me at all.

also can you read some of my thots about night actions, and how rolestopper interacts with these roles and my answers from rex? when ur free of course no rush. been picking my brain about the mechanics here, because i think the answer is here but im not putting it together

So you said your action failed, which means either you were roleblocked or Thoth really does have a Rolestopper and he used it on Pie, which doesn't make sense. But no, you're saying you have a Roleblocker, and Rex wouldn't put two Roleblockers in the game because I don't think that's resolvable like two Watchers is. I'll have to ask.

I don't have the brain RAM to think about this lol. I promise I'll reread your posts later and give you something more in depth. In the meantime, can you tell me why you sussed Pie enough to try to roleblock him, why you didn't vote wylted DP2, and why you tried to roleblock Thoth? Like you said you probably wouldn't have strengthened me because Thoth might've been able to protect the NK but you also said you thought you were roleblocking Thoth, so I'm confused.