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Originally Posted by RexFavilla on 11/11/2026 at 3:11 PM (post #55)

Originally Posted by Magoroth on 11/11/2026 at 2:57 PM (post #52)
Active PGO is the usual rule and it’s typixally town only but I have literally only ever seen the role once, so its kind of a moot point.

MU:

Mafiascum:
It's been widely understood to be a passive role for decades at this point.


It’s similar to Bulletproof at this point. I’ve seen a few instances of each being “activated” for a given NP, effectively limiting its usage to usually one shot, but those are the exceptions.

whiteflame


Originally Posted by Wryly on 11/11/2026 at 2:49 PM (post #49)
Lessons I learned this game:

I sus Pie and whiteflame too much by default. I should have doctored either of them NP1.


Honestly, don't blame you for doing it. I'm usually pretty hesitant on Pie myself with very few exceptions, and given how many times both of us have been scum, we have a long history of playing the part.

whiteflame


Originally Posted by Helz on 11/11/2026 at 12:55 PM (post #22)
Btw- Did everyone really not see WF's Post #2 as a soft PR claim? I pegged that shit the first second I read it and felt it was super obvious. Was another bit I struggled to understand how everyone else did not see it coming from a PR perspective. Even post flip.


The whole statement that my role wasn't tied neatly to my character indicated that I had a role, I meant to convey that much.

whiteflame
Originally Posted by Wryly on 11/5/2026 at 11:08 AM (post #244)
I should have pressed him for a character claim before now.


Yep, my mistake as well. I have a theory as to who would be the BD, but if that's true, it doesn't fit with the theme splits I'm considering.

whiteflame

Well, we've got an hour left. I haven't seen any meaningful alternative to Thoth beyond just killing Magoroth blind due to inactivity, which I don't support. I'd prefer to get a character claim first, but it's still a better choice.

whiteflame


Originally Posted by Banana on 11/5/2026 at 9:59 AM (post #234)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 11/5/2026 at 7:58 AM (post #233)

Originally Posted by Banana on 11/5/2026 at 1:44 AM (post #220)
VTL: Magoroth

lack of activity

So is the entire basis for lynching him a lack of activity?
why would he get a pass for it when others dont? thoth at least claimed. idk neither are ideal lynches


I'm not giving him a pass for it, just feels pretty weak, particularly with two claimed negative utility roles.

whiteflame
Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 11/5/2026 at 8:57 AM (post #228)
We have 4 hours left folks. Thoth hasn’t even attempted to scum hunt. He’s basically resigned. Town Thoth would push back on me


Thoth is my current inclination. Don't see much reason for the push on Mago. Still hesitant on Wylted, but not enough to put him over Thoth. I'm with you that I could absolutely see Thoth just straight up claiming this in the hopes that it's too out there to be scumread, though at this point, he should know we'd all flag it. Worst case scenario, we lose a negative town utility role that was effectively never going to be used anyway.


Not going to vote just yet, but I'll be here until EOD.

whiteflame
On that miller claim, Something I have wondered is if a town BD and a town Miller could exist in such a small game. They are 2 separate utilities that effectively nerf town suggesting we must have a very OP town behind it or simply that one of the two is scum. Something to consider.


That came to mind as well. It's a lot of negative town utility, and while you could argue that the lack of requirement that Thoth use the BD makes it less of a problem, it effectively just means the role shifts to a Vanilla player with a worse claim that can never be confirmed or tested.

whiteflame


Originally Posted by wylted on 11/5/2026 at 6:36 AM (post #221)
it's insane that so many people have not placed a vote. we need votes cast so we know where everyone stands. there is also likely two scum in the non voters. in general scum want to be the most flexible people early gane


You know, I'm realizing my vote on you never actually registered, but that's fine. Less convinced of my sus on you right now.

whiteflame

I'm just exhausted after a terrible night's sleep. Going to catch up on the DP, but I doubt I'll be much use figuring out a lynch this morning.

whiteflame
Originally Posted by wylted on 11/4/2026 at 3:43 PM (post #168)
you are mischaracterizing my criticism of Thoth.

my statement was that the first one to suggest a mass role claim should be willing to give their claim first, not that it makes somebody scummy to suggest it.

your other observations of me are fair so no push back there.


Fair point.

whiteflame


Originally Posted by Thoth on 11/4/2026 at 3:42 PM (post #166)
Originally Posted by whiteflame on 11/4/2026 at 2:07 PM (post #154)

Originally Posted by Thoth on 11/4/2026 at 2:46 PM (post #149)
Me am Bus Driver

Umm... huh. That's borderline SOP. I guess to some degree it depends on how you perceive it, since I wouldn't say a Redirector is SOP, but I'd at least consider SOP claiming this and probably would've made motions about doing so.
Why SOP? It’s not Compulsive


So you wouldn't have used it? And I say it's borderline SOP because it's far more commonly a scum role. Redirectors and Roleblockers are often enough on both sides of the coin, but I can barely even recall an instance where a Bus Driver was and the role is largely negative utility. I get that being compulsive would've made it absolutely SOP, but I think it's odd that you didn't even consider it as possibly SOP.


Originally Posted by Thoth on 11/4/2026 at 3:44 PM (post #169)
And in both cases there was a remarkable oddity to bring up. Maybe I should get in the habit of breadcrumbing every game


I'll admit those cases were outliers, I just think this case looks pretty out there as well. Maybe your experience is different from mine.

whiteflame


Originally Posted by RexFavilla on 11/4/2026 at 3:33 PM (post #162)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 11/4/2026 at 3:31 PM (post #161)

I don't recall him giving any breadcrumbs for his role in the Epstein Island game. I find it odd he wouldn't at least have mentioned something about his role this game, given that it's very often a scum role, especially after so many people started pushing him for a claim. I can understand being reticent about it at least, so that could explain why he held off as long as he did, but it could also be that he was still figuring out what to claim.

My initial thought was a panicked straight claim as pressure builds. Also outside his normal operating hours - scum mate pestering him about pressure building?


Yeah, I'm thinking about the timing, too.

whiteflame

What's mainly bothering me is the lack of breadcrumbing on Thoth's part prior to the claim. Look at the past two games where he was town.


In the State Attorneys General game, he breadcrumbed that he'd received info about his role that wasn't what he expected.


In the Apocalypse game, he mentioned there was something about his PM that indicated a lie in the OP.


I don't recall him giving any breadcrumbs for his role in the Epstein Island game. I find it odd he wouldn't at least have mentioned something about his role this game, given that it's very often a scum role, especially after so many people started pushing him for a claim. I can understand being reticent about it at least, so that could explain why he held off as long as he did, but it could also be that he was still figuring out what to claim.

whiteflame


Originally Posted by Wryly on 11/4/2026 at 3:10 PM (post #156)
The only Bus Drivers I can find were in Ranger's Apprentice mafia and Andor mafia. Scum roles both time. This in itself isn't evidence of guilt; I merely take note that it is a manipulative role that I've never seen given to town, and should be treated like Redirector or Strengthener: something that could potentially just be scum passing off their real role as a town role.


I think you meant Roleblocker, but yes. It also wouldn't be out of the ordinary for Thoth to take a big swing and claim something out of the ordinary in the hopes that we think it's just crazy enough to be real. Going to need to think on this one.

whiteflame


Originally Posted by Wryly on 11/4/2026 at 2:50 PM (post #152)
And now I dive into the records to see if there has ever been a town Bus Driver.


I think I recall one, but it's way back, like late DDO/early DART.

whiteflame


Originally Posted by Thoth on 11/4/2026 at 2:46 PM (post #149)
Me am Bus Driver


Umm... huh. That's borderline SOP. I guess to some degree it depends on how you perceive it, since I wouldn't say a Redirector is SOP, but I'd at least consider SOP claiming this and probably would've made motions about doing so.

whiteflame

Alright, some quick reads since I've been gone all day.


Thoth - I don't like him much behaviorally, but those times also tend to be the ones where I put light townreads on him and this is no different. I feel like he's been a bit more defensive of the whole push for massclaiming roles (I get that he more suggested open discussion of it, but he's been largely supportive of its pursuit) than he should be, but I also think Thoth is more likely to claim under the kind of pressure he's gotten if he's scum than town. It's not a strong read, especially given that scum didn't get a fake role claim this game, but Thoth has thrown out some pretty big swings as scum before and I don't think that would stop him. I'm hesitant to give it more than a gut townread, though.


Pie - Not a lot to go off of so far. The joke vote on Wylted followed by the vote on Thoth entirely on the basis that he's not great at fake claiming would be opportunistic from virtually anyone, but it's not unusual for Pie. I'm tempted to townread his last couple of posts as he comes to the realization that the Miller claim is likely real, though it's not really enough to sway me off of a null read yet.


Wryly - I'm largely null on Wryly with some slight town vibes. I can largely see the pattern that Helz is laying out with Wryly's posting, though #28 comes off as more kicking the tires on the idea and encouraging a bit of back and forth with it. And I can also see Wryly's point on the Miller claim, which is something I've pointed out as well. I don't think Wryly's specifically dismissing the possibility that Rex would do this, rather that it's an appropriate risk for virtually anyone (with exceptions) to take, at least insofar as we've seen players take it on this site. Yeah, it's analysis of common site meta, but I think it's valid here. I wouldn't say it gives me a solid reason to townread Wryly, but I can at least get a bead on Wryly's thinking and that makes me want to lean town a bit.


Magoroth - Slight scum. It's basically down to his last two posts, which are the only ones that contribute an opinion so far. Wonky choice to say that he wants a mass claim delayed to DP2 without much explanation beyond it possibly ending the game DP1 (unclear why he thinks that) before questioning the entire basis for seeking a mass claim at all. It's "both sides"ing the issue while also delaying any implementation. It's not a lot to go off of, but then he hasn't really posted enough for me to make any other inferences.


Wylted - Perhaps a little quick on the jump with the mass role claim idea while also shunting to push Mago for some reason. That's not really what bothers me, though. I get pushing Thoth, too, though it seems a little weird that, after jumping in and saying that the mass claim is an idea he supports, he's going after Thoth for being the one who suggested it. He embraced it before Thoth did, and it feels a little disingenuous, even if Thoth started the idea. I also really don't like his continued efforts to push against townreading the Miller claim. I get that the claim came later in the DP, but it seems like Wylted's ignoring the risks of the claim regardless of whether it came up at the beginning of the DP or in the middle. Slight scum.


Helz - Largely based on the extensive reads and how Helz is going about looking through everyone so far, I'm putting them as slight town. Not really any strong read there because I know Helz can come up with reads like this and be detailed and thorough in the analysis, particularly this early, but I follow the logic pretty well and see the progression of how Helz is viewing everyone's posts so far. Usually townread that shit, no different here.


Banana - Null. Just not a lot to read into so far. Said she's not opposed to the mass role claim with a caveat about interpretation, then just said we have to make a decision on the mass claim soon. It's not a very solid position one way or the other, and though I think a role claim from her might help me situate her better, I don't think that's reason enough for me to push her for a claim now.


Rex - Lean town. I've already explained how I see the Miller claim and why I don't think scum would play this the way he has. The late-ish claim also gives him a small amount of towncred IMO, just seems like an odd way to act given that it would immediately invite questions. I just don't think Rex takes this kind of risk as scum.



So yeah, right now, I'm tempted to get a claim from Wylted.


VTL Wylted

whiteflame


Originally Posted by Thoth on 11/3/2026 at 10:35 PM (post #111)
There has not been a lot of discussion about anything this game.


All the more reason that I find it odd to focus on a need to achieve some level of discussion before proceeding. Doesn’t seem like we’re going to get there.


Maybe the ones who approve of it now should do it and make the fire hot by striking


You’re welcome to rally the troops. Don’t think you’ll get anywhere since the value from doing so comes from everyone agreeing to do it.


Yes, hesitantly, because I think that a mass role-claim will work best if one person decides claim order and my sus on Rex is not super severe.


Alright. Still requires agreement to abide by what he or whoever else we potentially choose says.

whiteflame


Originally Posted by Thoth on 11/3/2026 at 10:19 PM (post #106)
I was floating the idea that we talk about whether or not we want to pursue it, and, if so, how we should approach it. I was not saying with certainty that I wanted us to mass-claim our roles and that I should command it. I thought I had made that clear.


Feels like there just hasn't been a lot of discussion on it besides the back-and-forth between you and Wryly on the matter and everyone else taking a position and sticking with it. I get the concept of just having it out over this, but I don't think that's productive anymore, so I have to question why it's still something we're talking about. Doesn't seem like there's any chance of this getting unanimous approval.


Let the day phase play out naturally until, say, halfway through the DP, which is about where we are, and then suggest that the towniest person choose the order in which we claim, towniest person to be decided by collective vibes and feels. At least, that is what I would say if there had been several times more activity so far. As it stands, activity is low enough that coordination from everyone seems implausible, so my suggestion is that a few people agree to claim their roles, and, once we have hit a critical threshold, say 5 agreements including the existing claim of Miller, we all claim and demand that everyone else claim.


Don't think you're even getting a majority at this point. I've said I'm willing to go with it if it's virtually everyone in agreement, but if we're talking about a simple majority, my opposition will remain. As for who the towniest person is right now, I think the agreement is on Rex, who you seem to have some misgivings about. Would you accept him being the person to make these calls if the rest of us were in agreement?

whiteflame


Originally Posted by Wryly on 11/3/2026 at 10:08 PM (post #105)
As far as I'm concerned, if someone's pushing for a mass role claim, they should lead the way. I can't say I support the mass claim and the push for it consistently sets me on edge, but I feel like pushing for it and then avoiding claiming when attention is drawn back to you for any reason seems a little off.

I am equally shocked that "claim because you suck" hasn't been a persuasive approach.


Lol, glad I'm not alone.

whiteflame


Originally Posted by Thoth on 11/3/2026 at 9:35 PM (post #101)
Originally Posted by whiteflame on 11/3/2026 at 8:27 PM (post #96)
Considering how strong of an advocate you are for doing this,, I have to wonder why you haven't responded to efforts to get you to claim your role. Is it just that you feel it's necessary for everyone to be on the same page before anyone claims?
That, and I am also annoyed on principle by demands for me to claim first because tHoTh CaN't FaKe ClAiM


It may be the reason others have pushed for your claim, not mine. As far as I'm concerned, if someone's pushing for a mass role claim, they should lead the way. I can't say I support the mass claim and the push for it consistently sets me on edge, but I feel like pushing for it and then avoiding claiming when attention is drawn back to you for any reason seems a little off.


So tell me how you would pursue claims in this instance.

whiteflame


Originally Posted by Thoth on 11/3/2026 at 8:51 PM (post #84)
Originally Posted by Wryly on 11/2/2026 at 10:34 PM (post #38)
You compassionate hand wringers are really cramping my anarchist zest here. It's a perfectly kosher play, it's not like we're breaking his game. It will probably be disastrous anyway.
If it succeeds, hosts will have to design their games to make it at least much harder to do again. I presume that scum receiving fake-claims started because forcing claims out of people proved too effective. For all I know, that might predate DDO/DART/DC and have been imported from another community.


Considering how strong of an advocate you are for doing this,, I have to wonder why you haven't responded to efforts to get you to claim your role. Is it just that you feel it's necessary for everyone to be on the same page before anyone claims?

whiteflame
Originally Posted by Wryly on 11/3/2026 at 9:14 PM (post #93)
Can anyone remember a game on DC where scum claimed a Miller?


No, though that's besides the point. Scum would have to bank on the existence of a Cop in the game. We know they don't have role information beyond what their roles say. If they have reason to believe there is a Cop as a result, then they wouldn't know there's a Miller and could be walking directly into a CC. If they have reason to believe there isn't a Cop, then they're just slow-walking their way to a lynch as more roles come out. I don't buy either one.

whiteflame


Originally Posted by RexFavilla on 11/3/2026 at 1:47 PM (post #72)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 11/3/2026 at 1:35 PM (post #68)
Originally Posted by RexFavilla on 11/3/2026 at 9:15 AM (post #43)
Actually I just read my role PM and I have to SOP claim - I'm the miller.

Not sure why you'd wait this long to read your own role PM, but I buy it.

Don't have discord on my phone because it's run by satanic retards, so sometimes I just roll with it and start posting in the DP until I have time to get to my dedicated shitposting laptop.


Fair enough.