whiteflame

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/24/2026 at 11:16 PM (post #174)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/24/2026 at 3:52 PM (post #142)

It’s been… a day, got a lot busier when I had to handle a mess at home. My bandwidth is lower than usual, but I’ll try to be involved from here.

If the consensus is that we want to move on from Mag1c, that’s fine, though I still have reservations there. I’ll set those aside for now. Pie at least knows he was visited. It’s unclear if he knew Mag1c was the one to do it, but he buys his claim. I could see a world in which they do this as a scum team, though it seems pretty convoluted. I could see them just both being town.

As for who to put attention on, I don’t think we’re going to get much more out of Kohai. Maybe he gives up his full claim, but we’ll likely still be in the same boat with him unless someone has information on his night action or lack thereof. Absent that, I’m more interested in Thoth’s claim, particularly after he started fishing for mine.

VTL Thoth

I also don't understand why he was fishing for yours if he was just assuming you were a vanilla. That is literally pointless, even if you assume you know someone's a vanilla, you never call attention to that.

Yep, it's beyond me. I'm going to sleep on this because I feel like staring at my screen isn't getting me any closer to an answer. Will be active tomorrow.

Might as well get up a claims list.

Dead players:

Vader v.1.0: Solar Flare - 2X RB

Banana: Alien Invasion - Even Night Follower

Lunatic: Nuclear Warfare - ???

Whiteflame: Ice-IX - ???

Thoth: Sun turning into a red giant - Vanilla

Pie: ??? - something that registers a visit to him

Mag1c: God exists and we face judgment - Doctor (chosen as "Jesus" NP0)

Kohai: Zombie Apocalypse - Tree Stump

Vader v.2.0 (formerly JenKiggans2026): Vacuum Decay - Miller

Originally Posted by Thoth on 9/24/2026 at 10:40 PM (post #171)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/24/2026 at 9:33 PM (post #168)

Mistyped that Roman numeral, it’s Ice-IX. Long day.

So it goes.

My man.

Originally Posted by Thoth on 9/24/2026 at 10:32 PM (post #167)

Again, I have been sick, I will try to participate tonight and discuss what's been said today but I can't guarantee deep analysis.

Sorry you haven’t been feeling well, man. Hope you get better soon.

Mistyped that Roman numeral, it’s Ice-IX. Long day.

Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/24/2026 at 10:01 PM (post #162)

Do you have an issue character claiming?

Considering I don’t think it gives anything away, I’m not opposed. I’m the Ice-Nine or Ice-XI apocalypse from Cat’s Cradle, my favorite Kurt Vonnegut book.

I’m going to need to dig back through and reconsider my reads. I know attention is mostly on Luna atm, but I’m also aware I’m common to several POEs, so I suspect I won’t be far behind if he does full claim. I’d prefer to wait another DP to do so, but that will be up to the rest of you to decide.

Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/24/2026 at 8:41 PM (post #157)

Unvote

We have just over 24 hours. We need to come up with a consensus

Unvote

Yup. Starting to feel like I’m missing something obvious after Thoth’s claim, but I can’t put my finger on it.

Also, just saying, not that terrible of a role PM from where I’m sitting. Zombie Apocalypse is just about the only thing that would work for a Tree Stump from where I’m sitting. Guess they’re smart zombies.

Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/24/2026 at 3:38 PM (post #136)

Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/24/2026 at 3:34 PM (post #134)

Originally Posted by Mag1cman on 9/24/2026 at 9:27 AM (post #90)

let’s get Lunatic’s claim. I’ll help you get Kohai’s if you help me with this.

Im comfortable with that. Right now my POE is Luna, Kohai, Thoth, Whiteflame. 50/50 chance. I also want to pursue Thoth today as well

Ive been really busy and will catch up later.

if we are going this route then why not mass claim today

Sincerely don’t know why there’s always someone in the first DP or two who goes to the massclaim well. I used to sus any consideration of it, but it’s gotten so common that it’s just puzzling. I don’t think Pie or Mag1c want everyone in their POE to claim, much less a massclaim. If mine is desired, we can cross that bridge when we come to it. Either way, no, I don’t think there’s a lot of value in a massclaim and I think we lose more than we gain.

It’s been… a day, got a lot busier when I had to handle a mess at home. My bandwidth is lower than usual, but I’ll try to be involved from here.

If the consensus is that we want to move on from Mag1c, that’s fine, though I still have reservations there. I’ll set those aside for now. Pie at least knows he was visited. It’s unclear if he knew Mag1c was the one to do it, but he buys his claim. I could see a world in which they do this as a scum team, though it seems pretty convoluted. I could see them just both being town.

As for who to put attention on, I don’t think we’re going to get much more out of Kohai. Maybe he gives up his full claim, but we’ll likely still be in the same boat with him unless someone has information on his night action or lack thereof. Absent that, I’m more interested in Thoth’s claim, particularly after he started fishing for mine.

VTL Thoth

Bullish is a staunch athiest who I highly doubt could make a coherent argument against God’s existence… or anything beyond the most surface level bad arguments. I highly doubt he has any substantial knowledge in theology or mythology.

Alright then.

It’s a detailed claim and pretty clear you were laying the groundwork for it for a while. Can’t say I read into the 22:12 line, but I did think that post read as odd and I can see it now that you point it out.

I am a bit confounded by Athena and Ra’s inclusion as possible choices. Ra isn’t the Egyptian god associated with judgement, that’s Osiris, and even if we’re considering all the gods in that pantheon involved in judgement, Anubis, Ma’at, Thoth and Ammit are all further up that list. Athena makes more sense than I originally thought because she has a history of making judgements like in the Trial of Orestes, but it seems like a big pivot from either Judgement Day or judgement after death, which has its own arbiters in Greek mythology.

It’s just a pretty eclectic slate, even for something as broad as “God exists and we face judgment.” I don’t want to hyperfixate on this, though, so I’m leaving it at that for now.

Could you explain why you said that Pie could confirm you? Is there something else to your role or are you just straight up the Doctor?

Originally Posted by Mag1cman on 9/24/2026 at 12:30 PM (post #105)

https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/87/apocalypse-mafia---dp1?page=3&comment_number=68

“I’d say too many people are afraid of mine. A pair of different ways it could go; I know of at least one couple in my town who actually spend time preparing for it.”

The sentence is just true. I’ve seen too many Christians talk about a fear of Judgement Day, there’s multiple theories among Christian scholars about how it would go down, and every family in my church is preparing for it; that comes with walking the path of faith.

Furthermore, the post was worded to leave a breadcrumb:

too = 2

pair = 2

one = 1

couple = 2

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2022%3A12&version=ESV

Revelation 22:12

“Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompenses with me, to repay each one for what he has done.”

My character is “God exists and we face judgment”

You might ask, how does that lead to Doctor? The answer is that I got to choose which god exists NP0. My options were Athena, Ra, and Jesus.

I thought this game had a lot more moving parts and bs roles than it actually did, so I chose Jesus hoping to get something really OP like a res ability, and got Doctor, because Jesus healed the sick, the crippled, and the demonically possessed.

Alright then, that at least gives me more to work with. Wonder what Athena and Ra would’ve given you, though both seem like somewhat strange choices for Judgement Day. Would’ve expected Ragnarok (so a Norse god) would be in the mix.

I’ll think on this.

From my perspective at least, your role is not confirmed, Pie demanded your claim, and yet he’s the one you claim should be able to effectively confirm you. Maybe this is an issue on his end and something he missed. I’m ready and willing to have that proven to me anytime.

Behaviorally, I’ve been mixed on your responses so far, but I wouldn’t say I’m actively scumreading you atm. I get that you have others who are, but maybe don’t just assume I’m scumreading you because I’ve got you in POE, have been asking questions and have been confused by some of your choices.

But no, I’m not going to townlock you over what I’ve seen so far. You’re leaving that largely to Pie and he hasn’t done much to establish that you are, honestly.

Originally Posted by Vader on 9/24/2026 at 9:50 AM (post #85)

I feel like my response to this is more personal strategy to the game of mafia itself rather than to the game and that’s a semantics debate I don’t want to get into. Even then, even if Pie is a fear kill, he was clearly not the top town player here and had some scum reads on him.

I agree, he wouldn’t be the obvious pick for protection.

It’s a busy morning, I’ll be more active in the afternoon. I find it odd that Mag1c is this confident in Pie being town right now, since he has confirmed Mag1c’s night action, but still demanded that he claim his role despite Mag1c heavily implying that Pie knows at something about how his role works. I’ll go back through Luna’s case and see if he’s being overly selective later, but mechanically, I feel like I’m missing something that neither Mag1c nor Pie are being forthcoming about.

Originally Posted by Vader on 9/24/2026 at 7:22 AM (post #82)

Also why would mafia target Pie? His clear scum reads were Vader (1) and Kohai. Unless any of them were mafia, no reason to fear kill Pie unless they knew information

I think the insinuation is that Pie is commonly a fear kill as town rather than that he was doing anything specific this game to warrant the NK, though I don't love that as an explanation for protecting him. It's a pretty weird justification with more solid townreads on the table acknowledged by Mag1c.

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/24/2026 at 2:17 AM (post #79)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/23/2026 at 9:36 PM (post #74)

So... I guess we're just trusting that Mag1c has a role that basically confirmed him to his target? Pie, is that true?

Doctor is a strong claim, I'll admit. If no other protective roles come out, there's a good chance its legit. I still have a problem with the behavior of magic and with a fake claim being on the table, its not entirely out of the question that mafia was given doctor as a fake claim. It's not the first time and definitely wouldn't be the last that we've seen scum claim doctor.

I'm not in a position to CC him or challenge the likelihood of his claim, and given what he's said so far about Pie effectively confirming his night action, I'm more just intrigued than I am sus of his claim. I'm with you behaviorally, and yes, I've seen more than a few scum claim doctor before.

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/24/2026 at 2:19 AM (post #80)

When you get on we need clarity from you about this whole mess.

It'd be a nice place to start and I don't know why Pie would encourage Mag1c to claim if he'd been given evidence during the NP that Mag1c had protected him. This whole situation is puzzling.

I'll leave it here for tonight. If Pie can confirm something here from Mag1c, he should. If he can't, then we're going to need more info from Mag1c. Pretty simple.

So... I guess we're just trusting that Mag1c has a role that basically confirmed him to his target? Pie, is that true?

Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/23/2026 at 10:34 PM (post #61)

Originally Posted by Mag1cman on 9/23/2026 at 10:22 PM (post #57)

Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/23/2026 at 9:22 PM (post #50)

Originally Posted by Mag1cman on 9/23/2026 at 2:00 PM (post #26)

Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/23/2026 at 10:07 AM (post #20)

Alright, one of you visited me last night. I know who you are and you know who you are. Confess or be lynched.

that would be me.

And pray tell what you did

I used a doctor ability on you.

Character and justification?

I'm not buying this.

Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/23/2026 at 11:12 PM (post #65)

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/23/2026 at 11:01 PM (post #63)

As I said earlier the justification and character makes zero sense. I’m never claiming my character as this only helps scum further. We’ve already had too many claims IMO

Can you explain why claiming your character would help scum? You've already role claimed, in what way could your character be worse than claiming your role?

Because scum are only provided with 1 fake role or character claim. THe more character claims we get the more it helps scum narrow the pool

As someone who currently thinks your behaviorally town, man, this isn't a great look. You say that giving away your character claim would be a problem, but you're clearly fine with getting Mag1c's despite him claiming what would theoretically be a role that he could confirm while still alive. Not saying I buy Mag1c's claim either, but this is pretty hypocritical.

Originally Posted by Mag1cman on 9/23/2026 at 10:22 PM (post #57)

Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/23/2026 at 9:22 PM (post #50)

Originally Posted by Mag1cman on 9/23/2026 at 2:00 PM (post #26)

Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/23/2026 at 10:07 AM (post #20)

Alright, one of you visited me last night. I know who you are and you know who you are. Confess or be lynched.

that would be me.

And pray tell what you did

I used a doctor ability on you.

Alright, that's a start.

Several of us have mentioned just how odd it was that you chose Pie as your target. Why did you pick him? Why are you claiming "a doctor ability" instead of just saying what your role is? Are you refusing to claim your character for a reason or is this another Kohai situation where we'll know your role, but neither character nor justification will be forthcoming?

Originally Posted by Vader on 9/23/2026 at 8:12 PM (post #40)

I don't like the way that Pie also claimed. Looked like he was getting some people to soft their claims that they had or actions but I do not think it is atypical of him to do that. I don't know what information he would specifically get.

My question is why didn't Magic go after Kohai. It was his strongest read besides me and he pivotted to someone that he was town reading by the end of the DP. I agree with Luna here and is a good point I didn't think about. I feel like he didn't play whatever he had, ideally, depending on his role.

Originally Posted by Vader on 9/23/2026 at 8:13 PM (post #42)

Also he had a hard town read on Thoth. If he was a protective role, why didn't he protect Thoth? I don't know if his read changed but when he launced his consistent top read was Thoth and I felt like if he makes the justification that he was trying to protect his biggest town read, he'd go for Thoth

If he's investigative, no reason he doesn't go Kohai or someone he had a read on like Luna

Seems like there's a lot to dig into with regards to both their choices. There are some oddities to Pie's choices, but I'm having more trouble making sense of Mag1c's as well. He's leaving the reveal to Pie for some reason, which bothers me.

I less get Thoh. He rode hard for him early stages and now feels like he's backing out of that read.

I smell a Thoth / Magic team tbh

Maybe, haven't been thinking on team makeups yet.

Originally Posted by Thoth on 9/23/2026 at 7:39 PM (post #39)

Before I read up, I would like to ask whiteflame this question: Ignoring that Banana's ability was even-night, if someone had used it on you last night, which category of these would they have seen?

none, visiting, informational, protective, manipulative, killing, special.

You don't need to say which category specifically. I would be fine knowing if it's, for example, one of two or three categories. Actually, I won't scumread you for not answering at all, but, if you give the answer I expect, I'm townpiling you until I have reason not to. So ask yourself how much it means to you to have me townpile you.

Also, I'm curious what 'visiting' and 'special' are if not in the other four categories. I would not take this as proof of at least one of each kind being in the game, but I am curious how Bullish classifies them.

Considering that any answer I give will at least confirm that I am or am not a PR, I'm hesitant to answer this in the way you want, and I'm all the more hesitant given you're asking me and me alone for this information. Is there a reason I'm your focus?

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/23/2026 at 5:29 PM (post #34)

Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/23/2026 at 8:07 AM (post #20)

Alright, one of you visited me last night. I know who you are and you know who you are. Confess or be lynched.

How would you know who visited you and why would that make them scum automatically? You not being dead is a good sign already that it wasn't neccesarily a scum visit, and if you were roleblocked you wouldn't know who visited you. So calling attention to this like that is weird if you are town.

Depends if he knows the nature of the visit, though Pie hasn't elaborated yet on what he knows, so I get the issue. If he just knows he was visited, it's a weird choice.

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/23/2026 at 5:39 PM (post #35)

Okay, I think the Pie situation is actually worth lookingt at for a minute. Pie said someone visited him and basically challenged that person to claim it. Magic has now admitted that it was him. I'm not saying that automatically makes Magic scum. Obviously there are non-scum reasons to visit someone. But I do think this is something we should actually understand before just moving on from it. Magic, what exactly did you do to Pie last night?

And more importantly, why Pie?

Because if you had some reason to specifically target Pie, I want to know what that reason was. Was it because of his behavior in DP1? Or was it something else?

I also think Pie's reaction deserves scrutiny. He immediately knew someone had visited him and made a pretty aggressive public demand for that person to claim. Now that we know it was Magic, I'm interested in whether that reaction makes more sense depending on what Magic actually did.

I'd like to interrogate this more as well. I don't really understand either of their responses to this situation so far, Pie for not clarifying what he feels is so sus about being visited and Mag1c for not elaborating on anything regarding his night action or choice of target. We know he's a PR now, doesn't necessarily mean he should full claim, but the complete lack of insight into what he did and why he did it is puzzling.

Separately, I think I'm going to spend more time looking at Kohai today.

My current problem with Kohai is less "he hasn't posted enough" and more that I don't think I've seen a particularly convincing explanation for his progression through DP1. I'd like him to actually lay out who he thinks is scum and why rather than just reacting to whoever is currently being discussed.

I'm still not dropping Magic. My gut is still there, and his reaction to my questions today hasn't exactly made that feeling go away.

But I don't want to spend another entire DP arguing with him while everyone else gets ignored.

I'm not setting aside Kohai entirely, but at least based on what I've seen behaviorally, he's not a priority for me right now. That might change, particularly with a good set of reads.

So right now I want:

Magic explain the Pie visit.

Pie explain what you expected the visitor to be doing and why you thought they should confess.

Kohai give me your actual current scum pool and explain the progression that got you there.

Then I'll decide where I want my vote.

Seems reasonable to me.

Originally Posted by Mag1cman on 9/23/2026 at 3:24 PM (post #31)

Do you have anything to elaborate on from yesterday?

Hmmm... seems like you're insinuating something should be forthcoming. I'll see how Thoth responds.

Originally Posted by Mag1cman on 9/23/2026 at 3:29 PM (post #32)

claim option fmpov

Lunatic - top scum read

Thoth - coverage play, for clarity on yesterday

Kohai- going along with Pie’s plan

I get Luna because you were quite clear on your issues with him already. I kind of get Thoth. Less clear on Kohai.

Originally Posted by Mag1cman on 9/23/2026 at 3:00 PM (post #26)

Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/23/2026 at 10:07 AM (post #20)

Alright, one of you visited me last night. I know who you are and you know who you are. Confess or be lynched.

that would be me.

That's one mystery solved. Not sure why you'd say that and then not provide any details as to why, but at least you did say it.

So with that in mind, it doesnt change a thing about how I see you.

The accusatory language in that last sentence is hilarious. Vader was my top scumread, ofc I was going to push that. And yeah you flew up my rankings over Whiteflame… why I would I push my 3rd choice when Vader and Lunatic are right there?

this questioning is so fake.

I agree with Luna, this does seem more defensive than I think was warranted. You were hardly the only one on Vader, and he did ask questions along similar lines of everyone, whether you think they're "fake" or not.

Originally Posted by Mag1cman on 9/23/2026 at 3:19 PM (post #30)

Originally Posted by Vader on 9/23/2026 at 5:53 AM (post #14)

My character is false vacuum decay. It’s a fake a quantum state that is meta stable and because I am false I am Miller

I can’t give you free town cred for this bc if someone else were miller, they’d’ve SOPed by now, meaning mafia knew it was a free thing to claim… but only if someone replaced in.

This is not a scumcase. Just not giving free towncred due to the specific circumstances.

That's fair, though I don't think Vader takes this kind of risk, personally.

Apologies in advance for the brevity, I really am short on time today, but I didn’t want to just let this sit.

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/23/2026 at 4:06 AM (post #7)

Whiteflame, I want to hear more from you today because I don't feel like I have a great read on where your head was at during DP1.

Fair.

You had some early thoughts on Pie/Kohai and the claim discussions. After everything that happened in DP1, what is your current read on those slots? Did anyone move significantly for you?

I’m still wary of Kohai, though I wouldn’t say he’s my strongest scumread at this point, and I don’t think we have the leeway we had last to just eliminate him and see what happens. Pie I’m a little less sure of, but I’ll let him cook on the visit front and see where he’s going with it.

What is the strongest reason you would have for voting someone today? Not just who feels off, but what specific behavior makes you think they are more likely scum than town if any? Is there anyone you feel you have a stronger townread on now compared to the end of DP1? And what specifically earned that?

Right now, I wouldn’t say I have a strong reason to vote anyone, more that I have reasons to look in different directions than I did last DP. Essentially, I’ve just narrowed my POE. Part of that comes down to a re-read of Kohai’s DP1 posts. Maybe I’m just not used to his scum behavior, but the defeatism I’m seeing towards the end of the DP looks a lot more like the usual town behavior I’ve seen from him. Vader straight claiming Miller knowing that that would draw attention to him makes me think he’s likelier to be town than not. I still think much of your argument last DP pegs you as town, so that leaves Pie, Mag1c and Thoth as people I’m mainly considering.

Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/23/2026 at 10:07 AM (post #20)

Alright, one of you visited me last night. I know who you are and you know who you are. Confess or be lynched.

Wasn't me.

I’m slammed with work this morning, but I promise I will respond to you when I get a chance.