whiteflame

Going to respond to the second half of this first, because I vehemently disagree - scum could not have 'easily' faked being in a Mason chat with anyone other than a partner, because otherwise they would have been contradicted.

Being in a “Mason chat” with their scum partner is what I was referring to.

The only claim regarding Mason chats right now that is even theoretically possibly a lie is RT claiming to have been in a Mason chat with Luna, and that's just because of the sudden hammer. If he had waited slightly longer to hammer, we could have all outed who we invited.

I’m not fond of the choice either.

And besides, I feel like you're totally missing the point I was making here, which is that a Janitor in this game would be weak because of how limited scum would be in using it - using it on anyone who is not exclusively in a Mason chat with you would be a huge risk, because they may have told their Mason buddy about their character and role (like Luna did to you). A Janitor would be so narrowly useful that it just doesn't make much sense to me to include it in a game like this.

I agree that scum has to play more of an information game to make the Janitor work. Doesn’t seem like a great reason to dismiss the existence of a Janitor outright, particularly since scum likely have at least one JOAT. It would be odd to prefer that over other role choices, on that front we agree.

As for you 'hinting' at Luna's role being flipless - yeah, that was just me mixing up my memory of what you said with my own ideas about the game. I did remember you saying that you knew something about his role and that you weren't going to share all the details yet (fair enough). I guess I conflated that in my mind with my own conclusions about Luna more likely being flipless than being Janitored.

Fair enough.

I find myself in the position of having access to a lot of information through my Mason chats, but also having both you and Rex as black boxes of a sort, so I’m trying to decide whether it’s just worth pursuing the lynch on RT or filling in one of those gaps. If that requires waiting a little longer, then I’ll take a step back from it.

Unvote

As the one person with contact with Shining, I’ll say that I’d prefer not to seek a full claim from him. I have some reason to believe his claim from where I’m sitting. I’m keeping the reason for that to myself.

Damn, that’s a crazy score.

Meant to tag you on the above.

I’m hesitant to seek too much information this DP, but as things stand, I do think there’s value in getting some more info.

I think Rex has a good point about RT claiming that Luna said he should hammer, which does stand out as odd given my experience. The claim of Beloved Princess looks like an outlier as well. Like Mharman, though, the lack of defense for him is setting off alarm bells. It just seems too easy to pursue.

Pie’s being confirmed Popular doesn’t really move the needle for me. I’m still slightly townreading him behaviorally, but I’ve seen too many Popular scum to just treat this as any kind of alignment confirmation.

The person who is setting off the most alarm bells for me currently is Casey, and I’d like to pursue them for a claim at this point. I don’t love that Casey claims I “hinted” at Luna being flipless (don’t recall saying anything of the sort), and the explanation for why there shouldn’t be a Janitor just doesn’t sit well with me given that scum could easily have faked being in a Mason chat or just refused to give up their role. Feels like fishing.

VTL Casey

Luna: 7/26 7:38 PM

Mhar: 7/26 9:18 PM

Vader: 7/25 10:31 PM

Earth: 7/26 8:24 PM

Ragnar: 7/25 1:04 PM

Damn, I must be tired. I thought I was on the lynch, but I was not. So yes, it is noted that I wasn’t being pushed to hop on the lynch. I did suggest that I saw Icon as the likely TP Survivor. RT being pushed by Luna to do it while I wasn’t is a strange outlier.

What I want to know from Whiteflame is if Lunatic mentioned anything about an early hammer in his PM with you?

I didn’t see mention of it. That being said, my vote was already on Icon and he had asked about my perception of Icon beforehand.

Did Ragnar push/argue for an early lynch in his PM for you? That last question also applies to Casey.

No one did, but again, my vote was already on Icon so that would have been strange.

Also, is Ragnar normally so affable when playing?

Yep. He’s usually a little goofy about it to boot.

Unvote

Much as I think it’s valid to have this discussion, I do think the DP needs some direction and we already have a pretty clear one for the interim: test Pie’s role. He claimed Popular, so if you don’t have a vote on him, it’s worth getting one up (at least until the point that it’s tested).

As for likely lynches, I’m between Rex and RT, but I think for now I’d most like the former to claim since we know what the latter has claimed. Does anyone object to that?

I actually think it’s null. He could’ve purposely not selected an individual as a strat to hopefully void my plan. But I also think the inactivity itself is null

Fair. I can only say that his absence seemed genuine and it’s weird for only one member of the scum team to try and void your plan like this.

I’m curious as to your reason for these reads? Is it behavioral or mechanical?

Sure. Mharman’s almost all mechanical, actually had some behavioral reasons to sus him. Ragnar, Vader and Earth are almost entirely behavioral.

I’m Tetris, and I require one additional vote to be lynched, so basically the Popular Townie. Mikal clarified that I deactivate at MYLO/LYLO.

Alright, worth testing at least, though we’ve seen enough Popular scum that it’s not super helpful in figuring alignment.

VTL Pie

I don’t buy it either. Super Mario Pros or something about Princess Peach seems like a better candidate. His play has been erratic at best too

He’s bound to be in PoE the rest of the game at this point. It’ll be that much riskier to lynch him later if he’s telling the truth.

I townread Casey still. The play just seems more townie to me than scum Casey

They're my weakest read in PoE, so I can set that aside for now.

He mistyped, saying that we would skip a DP if he was lynched or if he was NKd. I said we should just lynch him, because if we don't then scum will definitely NK him and we'll skip a DP anyway, and because I find the claim sus. He later clarified that if he's NK'd an NP will be skipped, not a DP. I still think it's an incredibly suspicious claim, and the fact that he flubbed it makes it even worse. I also find it scummy that he quickhammered, saying in the last post that Luna told him to do it, then Luna winds up dead, conveniently unable to corroborate this. Then he's also withholding info on Luna's full claim, which is asus because there's no conceivable reason why town shouldn't have that info. It should have been in the janitor'd flip to begin with. Overall I find him very suspicious and it'd be hard to budge me off of him as a lynch target.

If we have a vig I'd say NK him, otherwise he's my top pick. Most of my other reads are null (lean scum on Supa for innactivity, lean town on Casey for making reasonable, pro-town points that I had thought but hadn't posted), aside from Pie whom I town read for his play and the reads that I've bounced off him in our PM.

I get that RT's claim is sus. I understand sussing it. My confusion is with the statement that we should lynch him before scum had a chance to NK him. Even with the original writing of the role, if we had some other reason to townread him (just to be clear, I don't see one right now), I think the notion that it's functionally the same for town to sacrifice a lynch to achieve the same effect as scum using an NK for the same effect doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I agree that I mistrust the claim for a number of reasons, I just don't like that your response to the claim was, in part, that we're going to lose the DP anyway, so why not sacrifice the lynch while we're at it?

I do appreciate the somewhat abbreviated reads, though, so I'll leave off the pressure for now.

Unvote

So, to move things along, I'm just going to say that I know that Vader didn't get a chance to use his Mason. It took a while before we could get a sustained conversation going because he spent much of the first DP busy IRL. It's a bit of a towntell to me, since I don't think his scum partner(s) would have stayed quiet if he hadn't used it. I haven't asked him for much information so far on his role.

Since I've gotten a good deal more insight into characters than most, I'll just say that I thought the theme split was very basic, but my townreads tell me otherwise. I strongly townread Mharman, and I have good reason to believe that Ragnar is also town. There is a world in which I see them as a scum team, but that seems unlikely. From the limited conversation we have had thusfar, I'd say both Shining (Earth) and Vader are townleans.

That leaves Casey, Pie, RT and REF. Behaviorally, I have some reason to buy Pie as town, though it's mainly because I think he's been pretty consistent in his efforts at keeping the game organized and scumhunting. Seen him do both as scum, so it's not a strong read. So I think there's at least one scum between Casey, RT and Rex.

RT's claim definitely sets me on edge, seems like it's there chiefly to dissuade a lynch and explain why he'd survive NPs. He didn't say he was the Beloved Princess, he just says that he travels through time, which makes some sense with Chrono Trigger. Just because the train makes sense, though, doesn't mean I'm townreading him for it. Don't like that he claimed that quickly when all the value in his role disappears the moment it's claimed.

Rex's response to RT's claim confused me, since he seemed to be presenting lynching RT as a win-win regardless of whether he's telling the truth, which is not accurate. His contributions so far just haven't been enough for me to form an opinion on him otherwise.

I'm pretty null on Casey. Questioning of people's reads is all fine and dandy, but the lack of reads from them make it difficult to see what Casey's perspective actually is. They've shared thoughts on RT and I can understand targeting Ragnar, so that's a start and I'll let Casey cook with the other reads since they've been more forthcoming.

Of these three, I need more from Rex. A set of reads would be a good start, especially since he got a piece of Pie.

VTL Rex

Literally what I hoped to avoid by having people share the state of their mason activity; which ironically you had done.

Figured it was a given that this info was getting out this DP, but fair enough.

Also, despite some testiness early on, I can say with some confidence that Mharman is town. It’s not 100% because there is still one avenue by which I could see him being scum, but it would require me to rethink a lot of what I believe I know.

Seems like a good idea to lynch you then. If you're lying we catch scum, if you're not scum are going to NK you now and we'll lose a DP anyway.

Assuming that’s his actual role, losing a DP would be devastating, so I don’t get the logic. Not sure I buy it, but waiting for character info.

The irony is real cause I thought everyone liked Pie

I was so close to picking you too. Getting cold on that windowsill…

I’m headed off for the night. Before I head off, while I won’t name specific people (they can clarify themselves), I can confirm that there were four people who recruited me yesterday. I was surprised too, didn’t realize I was that popular.

1. Vader 
2. Mag1c - Whiteflame 
3. Casey - Ragnar
4. RT - Lunatic
5. Whiteflame - Vader
6. REF - Pie
7. Shining 
8. Ragnar 
9. Pie - Casey

Lunatic - Whiteflame

Icon - None

—————————————

1. Vader - ??? - ???
2. Mag1c - ??? - ???
3. Casey - ??? - ???
4. RT - ??? - ???
5. Whiteflame - Kirby - ???
6. REF - ??? - ???
7. Shining - ??? - ???
8. Ragnar - ??? - ???
9. Pie - ??? - ???

Lunatic - Super Mario Bros - ???

Icon - Frogger - Compulsive Hider

Small update based on my previous post.

So I guess Icon wasn’t the Survivor he seemed to claim, even if he was Frogger. I’ll be damned.

I chose Vader as my target. And yes, as has been said already, I was invited by Luna.

I was informed that his character was Mario and did inform him that I was Kirby. I was also given some tidbits about his role that I’ll keep to myself. He did say he was recruited by RT. He gave me some insight into his role that I’ll keep to myself. Apart from that, he posted some scattered thoughts about likely characters and the likelihood of certain claims being real, but nothing that’s going to be all that relevant.

I’ll hold off until tomorrow.

I will, and I’ll wait.

Yeah, I’m willing to lynch Icon at this point, but I want everyone to have as much of a chance as possible to recruit with their Masons. If you haven’t done so yet, no time like the present.

This is pretty incomprehensible. Why aren’t you clarifying your claim? Do you think having us sit with the obvious lies is going to help you somehow?

I’ll also hold off on voting until Icon posts again. I want to give him a chance to provide clarification, and if we don’t get a clear claim and a reason why he seems to be pushing chess when it’s pretty clear that that is not his claim, then he’s my vote.

If he did delete a post, then yeah, he needs to stop doing that. I think a mod kill on a new player for that would be excessive, but if he needs to be replaced to address it, best to get that done sooner than later.

So in the signup thread you mentioned chess, what did the host tell you about making your wish come true?

And yes, I find it dubious.

https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/sign-ups/posts/3/mafia---open-pm---you-choose---sign-ups

Didn’t realize he’d done this. Good catch. I’m guessing Frogger is his actual claim, might be the Survivor, don’t know why he’s lying.

according to mikal  my role is frogger

So… how does this square with your statements that you aren’t modern and are chess? I think you meant to say that your character was Frogger, since I’ve never heard of a Frogger role and you’ve already claimed Survivor. Was Frogger given to you as a fake claim?

You mentioned this, Ragnar, so I’ll follow suit: I’ve added someone to a chat, and I’ve been added to a chat, so that makes 2 total right now.

16th century 

Definitely going to need this clarified. So the game in your PM came from the 16th century? Or does your PM point to a game from a different time period and you’re extrapolating to a different version that goes back that far?

I would suggest something like picking the person under you on the player list and the person on the bottom picks the top player on the list.

Think we’d miss out on the benefits of Pie’s plan if we did that, but that would avoid the problem I mentioned.